Code of Conduct
Results 1 to 15 of 15
  1. #1

    Default Celery and cestrum nocturnum

    Hi all,

    I'm Nizan from Israel. Pretty much a newbie with mixing oils for perfume making.
    Right now I'm just collecting and using oils for healing.
    I have two smell-wise different questions..

    1. I've read that celery contains some human pheromones, so I thought of trying to make
    an extract to figure out what happens.. I did a pretty low temperature maceration of some
    celery in oil, and it really changed its smell (I guess the volatile oils evaporated pretty
    quickly).. Not it smells weird.. My impression is "green urine".. Is that the smell of
    androstenon? Would a tincture be better to try? (There's the Chef essences one..)

    2. I've been trying to get some cestrum nocturnum.. I've started doing an enflurage,
    but the temperature outside dropped quickly, so I only did two loads.. Not enough.
    I got some Raat Rani from Indian vendors, which doesn't smell at all like the flower,
    and are probably synthetic.. Any chance of finding an attar which is really just
    sandalwood and cestrum? Or finding an absolute somewhere?

    Thanks!

  2. #2

    Default Re: Celery and cestrum nocturnum

    Cestrum Nocturnum:

    http://www.whitelotusblog.com/2009/0...-absolute.html

    Sometimes, once every decade or less, Christopher from White Lotus gets someone in India to make the Absolute.
    I have a 10ml bottle of such. I bought mine a few years ago, and I thought that they had another batch made earlier this year, but it sells out VERY quickly...

    Can't say much about Celery vegetable matter and a Pheromone...

    PK
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  3. #3

    Default Re: Celery and cestrum nocturnum

    Quote Originally Posted by Nizan View Post
    I've read that celery contains some human pheromones, so I thought of trying to make
    an extract to figure out what happens.. I did a pretty low temperature maceration of some
    celery in oil, and it really changed its smell (I guess the volatile oils evaporated pretty
    quickly).. Not it smells weird.. My impression is "green urine".. Is that the smell of
    androstenon? Would a tincture be better to try? (There's the Chef essences one..)
    Although it has been for years suggested by some decent sources that raw celery contains androsterone, more recently there has been conflicting reports, suggesting that it contains androstenone instead. Further, most of the information on the net suggests the celery needs to be raw, or that it is released easily when being chewed. Scent profiles of steroids are very airy and atmospheric, in terms of their aura and projection, at virtually indetectable "doses".

    Androstenone indeed smells urinous, or like a wet, animalic, territorial, "aggressive" musk (in a similar way as castoreum smells aggressive); offensive for most when detected (though I like it extremely dilute); and androsterone smells mellower and maybe more woody and musky, more comforting of a texture.. Both these chemicals are mammalian pheromones, steroid molecules, and derivatives of testosterone (and regarding -rone, of DHEA). There is some research and/or other data supporting both as somewhat of a pheromone for humans, with -rone enjoying more support (e.g., Maiworm's studies). Adrostenone is best known as a pig pheromone, but when studying mammalian pheromones, it is relevant to remember tha humans are mammals and function biologically/reproductively very similar to other mammals.

    None of the several GCMS analyses I've read recognized either steroid molecule in the oil, and perhaps one or two other extractions. But those might identify 17 of over a hundred -fifty ingredients in celery. They most often recognize more conventional scent molecules used in perfuming or prominent in plant scent profiles. Steroid molecules are relatively weak as sources of scent, though they have a scent; and most people are partly or wholly anosmic to them. So I wasn't convinced by that data.
    Last edited by DrSmellThis; 21st November 2013 at 09:08 AM.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Celery and cestrum nocturnum

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post
    Cestrum Nocturnum:

    http://www.whitelotusblog.com/2009/0...-absolute.html

    Sometimes, once every decade or less, Christopher from White Lotus gets someone in India to make the Absolute.
    I have a 10ml bottle of such. I bought mine a few years ago, and I thought that they had another batch made earlier this year, but it sells out VERY quickly...

    Can't say much about Celery vegetable matter and a Pheromone...

    PK
    Thanks!

    I've been surfing around their site for a while, but yesterday when I wanted to order,
    I discovered they only ship within the US
    Do you know of any other sites which re-sells their oils in Europe and in smaller quantities?

    - - - Updated - - -

    DrSmellThis
    I guess the only way I would know is just to get some samples and smell them..
    I read that there's some androstenol in truffles, but I can't really get my hands on
    one (and it seems most oils are fake..).
    And idea where can I get some samples of these molecules?

  5. #5

    Default Re: Celery and cestrum nocturnum

    Quote Originally Posted by Nizan View Post
    Thanks!

    I've been surfing around their site for a while, but yesterday when I wanted to order,
    I discovered they only ship within the US
    Do you know of any other sites which re-sells their oils in Europe and in smaller quantities?

    - - - Updated - - -

    DrSmellThis
    I guess the only way I would know is just to get some samples and smell them..
    I read that there's some androstenol in truffles, but I can't really get my hands on
    one (and it seems most oils are fake..).
    And idea where can I get some samples of these molecules?
    You can get samples of the steroid molecules by searching for "love-scent chemistry set", and larger amounts from a company called "androtics". Celery seed can be bought lots of places, but let me know if you're interested in it and having difficulty finding it.

  6. #6

  7. #7

  8. #8

    Default Re: Celery and cestrum nocturnum

    I've started smelling a few chems from the cestrum headspace analysis that I
    could get my hands on -

    Phenyl Acetaldehyde
    Methy Benzoate
    Benzaldehyde
    Benzyl Acetate

    Most are sweet and almond like, but non has that nice greeness the smell has.
    I also saw it contained alpha farnesene, but it doesn't seem like I could find any
    in small quantities.. Any tips anyone?
    Could finding a Roman Chamomile EO/CO2, or something else be sufficient?

    Thanks

  9. #9

    Default Re: Celery and cestrum nocturnum

    Quote Originally Posted by Nizan View Post
    I've started smelling a few chems from the cestrum headspace analysis that I
    could get my hands on -

    Phenyl Acetaldehyde
    Methy Benzoate
    Benzaldehyde
    Benzyl Acetate

    Most are sweet and almond like, but non has that nice greeness the smell has.
    I also saw it contained alpha farnesene, but it doesn't seem like I could find any
    in small quantities.. Any tips anyone?
    Could finding a Roman Chamomile EO/CO2, or something else be sufficient?

    Thanks
    What do you mean by "greeness"? Would Hexenol-3-Cis do the trick? Or possibly Stemone?

  10. #10

    Default Re: Celery and cestrum nocturnum

    No idea.. I'll check - I have hexenol and there's still some stemone on the way.
    I've just started, so I didn't get a chance to check all my chemicals. Actually it
    seems I checked my PAD in too high a concentration. It smells pretty green now -
    like stem sap.

    Benzaldehyde still remains a riddle to me, though..

    Thanks!

  11. #11

    Default Re: Celery and cestrum nocturnum

    Quote Originally Posted by Nizan View Post
    No idea.. I'll check - I have hexenol and there's still some stemone on the way.
    I've just started, so I didn't get a chance to check all my chemicals. Actually it
    seems I checked my PAD in too high a concentration. It smells pretty green now -
    like stem sap.

    Benzaldehyde still remains a riddle to me, though..

    Thanks!
    PAD = Phenyl Acetaldehyde, right? In that case, I recommend a 10% dilution for evaluation. As for the Benzaldehyde, that stuff is also incredibly potent. 10% for evaluation. It should be giving you a bitter almond scent. I don't much care for it.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Celery and cestrum nocturnum

    I was following David's advice, and didn't dilute on the smelling strips (PAD - yep..
    Wasn't sure how to abbreviate). I got a VERY bitter rough almond scent out of it,
    that still lingers in the air. It seems this one is pretty common in GC analysis, but
    it smells so horrible, I don't get what's the point of adding it to a mix..

  13. #13

    Default Re: Celery and cestrum nocturnum

    Quote Originally Posted by Nizan View Post
    I was following David's advice, and didn't dilute on the smelling strips (PAD - yep..
    Wasn't sure how to abbreviate). I got a VERY bitter rough almond scent out of it,
    that still lingers in the air. It seems this one is pretty common in GC analysis, but
    it smells so horrible, I don't get what's the point of adding it to a mix..
    With something particularly potent, I always dilute (typically in ethanol) and then evaluate it. To me, it just seems to give me a better sense of what it will smell like once it is toned down in a final blend.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Celery and cestrum nocturnum

    Since the scent is linear, wont it get to the same smell of a diluted sample after a while?

  15. #15

    Default Re: Celery and cestrum nocturnum

    Quote Originally Posted by Nizan View Post
    I was following David's advice, and didn't dilute on the smelling strips (PAD - yep..
    Wasn't sure how to abbreviate). I got a VERY bitter rough almond scent out of it,
    that still lingers in the air. It seems this one is pretty common in GC analysis, but
    it smells so horrible, I don't get what's the point of adding it to a mix..
    I would say David's approach works best for those with experience, as you have to envision the smell of something in proper proportion. However, you get a lot of information smelling something in a strong concentration, which can outweigh that disadvantage. I prefer a strong concentration. But most people I know are immediately turned off when something smells too strong. I don't necessarily care whether I like or dislike a smell, when I'm after information.

Similar Threads

  1. Celery notes
    By viktorov in forum Male Fragrance Discussion
    Replies: 22
    Last Post: 28th November 2011, 07:54 PM
  2. Celery and Pine: Is the former caused by the latter?
    By Carlos in forum Male Fragrance Discussion
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 5th January 2011, 08:45 AM
  3. You know what smells awesome? Celery!
    By Sugandaraja in forum Male Fragrance Discussion
    Replies: 23
    Last Post: 19th February 2010, 04:25 PM
  4. cestrum nocturnum
    By lillie in forum Female Fragrance Discussion
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 1st August 2006, 07:50 PM
  5. Celery?
    By Wrecker in forum Male Fragrance Discussion
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 24th June 2005, 03:58 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  



Loving perfume on the Internet since 2000