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  1. #1
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    Default Coumarin crystalsqq

    Anybody know what to dilute coumarin crystals in and what the ratio should be

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Coumarin crystalsqq

    I dissolved some recently in a combination of DPG and ethanol. 10% coumarin, about 25% DPG and the rest ethanol. I did try it before with ethanol only and that resulted in the coumarin falling out of solution when the weather got cold. The DPG also stops the coumarin recrystallising on your pipettes.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Coumarin crystalsqq

    Is that weight or volume or does it matter

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Coumarin crystalsqq

    I go by weight for everything if possible, especially solids like coumarin. I don't know how you'd do it otherwise... it would be difficult to guess. Of course you can play around with the ratios, that's just what worked for me.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Coumarin crystalsqq

    How about veramoss it's a powder as well any thoughts

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Coumarin crystalsqq

    Many chems are soluble in that combo Alc+DPG but some are soluble in only one or the other and will fall out of solution when cold (ex. Patchone, Dimethyl Hydroquinone). I've successfully used the DPG + alcohol combination with many if not most of the aroma chems I have including veramoss and coumarin. Some crystalline substances and very viscous materials initially require mild heat to dissolve them into solution (20degC-40degC) but they will remain in solution thereafter if they are indeed soluble. If you look up the profile for each aroma chem on the GoodScents database you will see which solvents each aroma chem is soluble in.

    It was suggested to me recently to create a monograph or info page for each aroma chem and EO I have, TGSC database has been an invaluable resource in achieving this goal. If you haven't done this yet yourself I highly suggest you do so, what you learn will be invaluable.

    Here is a link, use the "search" function on the lower right section of the top, maroon colored, menu bar.
    http://www.thegoodscentscompany.com/data/rw1004452.html

  7. #7
    Paul Kiler
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    Default Re: Coumarin crystalsqq

    N.B. *** However, *MANY* crystals/powders just go into solution in your concentrate, eliminating the need to dilute at all.

    PK
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
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    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Coumarin crystalsqq

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post
    N.B. *** However, *MANY* crystals/powders just go into solution in your concentrate, eliminating the need to dilute at all.

    PK
    Wut?
    I don't understand your post... what are N.B. and *** ?

  9. #9

    Default Re: Coumarin crystalsqq

    I think what Paul's saying is that when your formula's squared away, you can put the crystals straight into the compound as you'll be bypassing the blending stage. Whenever I get a new material, I experiment with dilution relative to my other materials. I usually begin at around 20% and go further as needed. Some crystal materials need to be diluted a lot (such as ambroxan), but others, not quite as much. So perhaps experiment a little and share your results?
    Last edited by deadidol; 26th November 2013 at 08:33 AM.

  10. #10
    Paul Kiler
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    Default Re: Coumarin crystalsqq

    N.B. Latin, shortened from "nota bene", usually notated as "n.b.".

    Translation: Note Well. or i.e. Take Notice,

    From Latin i.e., an abbreviation of id est (“that is”)

    e.g. For Example, this is information that is useful, Pay Attention.

    e.g. is an abbreviation for the Latin phrase exempli gratia, meaning: for example.

    So, n.b., i.e., e.g. LISTEN UP! There'll be QUESTIONS aftwerward..



    PK

    See? My three years of High School Latin DOES have ***SOME*** use!
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
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    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Coumarin crystalsqq

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post
    N.B. *** However, *MANY* crystals/powders just go into solution in your concentrate, eliminating the need to dilute at all.

    PK
    Hidden amongst the Latin here [;-)] is some good advice: when Iím making up a batch of concentrate I normally start with the solids and then add the liquid base note materials and I usually find that there is no need to do anything more than a bit of mixing to get the solids to dissolve in the liquids. Lots of crystal musks, ambrofix, vanillin and so on will happily dissolve in materials such as hedione, timbersilk and even more will dissolve when youíre dealing with a mixture of a lot of perfumery materials.

    This isnít practical for blending work though, so you still need a dilution for that.
    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
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    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Iím happy to quote: if you want free advice, thatís what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Coumarin crystalsqq

    Thanks for the translation, lol, I be sure to save that one in my permanent memory bank.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Coumarin crystalsqq

    Hi Renegade,
    I am a beginner and was wondering if the ratios given above are measured in oz or grams. For example, I would weight 10 grams/oz of coumarin to 25 grams/oz of DPG & 65 grams/oz or Ethanol? Also, does it matter in what order they are mixed? Thank you

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Coumarin crystalsqq

    It doesn't matter, but in my case it would be grams. I wouldn't need 100 ounces of a coumarin solution, that would be way too much for me. I would make up about 30 grams (a bit more than an ounce) of 10% coumarin to have on hand for blending purposes. So, 3g of coumarin, 7.5g of DPG and 19.5g of ethanol. Please note I am not an expert here; you could try increasing the amount of DPG or even dissolving coumarin in DPG alone - I haven't tried that (maybe I should have...). Or if you live somewhere warm you could just dissolve in ethanol alone (the coumarin only falls out of solution when it's quite cold).

  15. #15

    Default Re: Coumarin crystalsqq

    Quote Originally Posted by Aromahead View Post
    Hi Renegade,
    I am a beginner and was wondering if the ratios given above are measured in oz or grams. For example, I would weight 10 grams/oz of coumarin to 25 grams/oz of DPG & 65 grams/oz or Ethanol? Also, does it matter in what order they are mixed? Thank you
    My starting point for coumarin is 10% in DPG. I kind of like having something other than ethanol to dilute with for blending, because the sharp top note of etoh is a thing in itself, and can be distracting for one's nose and olfactory mind. Others love ethanol dilutions for blending because it more closely resembles the final state of the perfume. It might just be a matter of whatever you are used to.

  16. #16
    Basenotes Member Macaul's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coumarin crystalsqq

    Say you dilute coumarin to 10% in pure ethanol and you add say, 5 drops, to your fragrance that you are working on....being that those 5 drops are 90% ethanol...should this be considered when you go to dilute your entire fragrance to make it an edt,edp,parfum, etc? Or should you treat each drop just like its a pure oil?

    Thats a question I always had but never really asked...

  17. #17

    Default Re: Coumarin crystalsqq

    Quote Originally Posted by Macaul View Post
    Say you dilute coumarin to 10% in pure ethanol and you add say, 5 drops, to your fragrance that you are working on....being that those 5 drops are 90% ethanol...should this be considered when you go to dilute your entire fragrance to make it an edt,edp,parfum, etc? Or should you treat each drop just like its a pure oil?

    Thats a question I always had but never really asked...
    You have to account for everything, and calculate everything. That's a bit of a pain for those with an artistic mentality who don't want to bother with YUCKY NUMBERS, but such is life. I bet David and Chris have a succinct explanation for this. Accounting-type math is not my intellectual strength.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Coumarin crystalsqq

    A Perfume formula is made up of "YUCKY NUMBERS". What is this irrational fear of simple arithmetic? The way I worked remained consistent throughout my career. I used weight, never volume. I worked in percentages, and usually made up 100.0 gms of fragrance. I would mix together the solids first, then add the largest amount of liquid in the formulation (as Chris has suggested). This "largest amount" could be the solvent (DPG or whatever) or it could be another material. A quick stir was usually all it needed to dissolve the solids. Adding the rest of the ingredients, further stirring; done. Occasionally it was necessary to warm the mixture to get all of the solids to dissolve. For this I used a water bath. It took maybe five minutes, if that.

    When the concentrate fragrance was finished, well blended etc. I would dilute it into whatever end-product it was designed for. If it was a fine fragrance I would add whatever amount of concentrate to whatever amount of ethanol to make 100.0% (e.g {for example} 20.0gms fragrance concentrate plus 80.0gms ethanol to make 100.0 gms of a 20.0% solution of perfume).

    If I used solutions they would be part of the formulation of the concentrated fragrance; the solvent used to make the solution would not be considered part of the final dilution.

    Hope this is clear.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Coumarin crystalsqq

    Ha ha. So I'm irrational. Call it ADD if you wish. One of my degrees is in finance and I still fear balancing my checkbook.

    So the issue in question is whether cases where a dry, undiluted ingredient is used, and cases wherein a diluted ingredient is used, are significantly different regarding one's method of keeping track of the numbers.

    More particularly, Etoh is not weightless, so it cannot be possible to regard a gram of coumarin as equivalent to 10 grams of coumarin diluted to 10%. If you have many different dilutions of your ingredients, how does this change your method of keeping track of the numbers? Even though the underlying math is itself easy, this still was not clear to me.

    Or call it a brain fart if you will.
    Last edited by DrSmellThis; 17th April 2014 at 08:54 PM.

  20. #20
    David Ruskin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coumarin crystalsqq

    You regard your solution as another ingredient. Rather than putting x gms of Lavender oil into your formulation you use x gms of Coumarin solution. Once you have finished making your concentrated fragrance, you dilute it. I always try to keep it simple.

  21. #21
    Paul Kiler
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    Default Re: Coumarin crystalsqq

    Quote Originally Posted by David Ruskin View Post
    You regard your solution as another ingredient. Rather than putting x gms of Lavender oil into your formulation you use x gms of Coumarin solution. Once you have finished making your concentrated fragrance, you dilute it. I always try to keep it simple.

    Simple is always the best, isn;'t it David...? :-)

    Here's what I do on my trials, when using the Excel Spreadsheet.
    Because I have some materials prediluted, because of viscosity or lack of ability to dissolve into alcohol well, etc., I will add the diluted amount by weight. I note the REAL WEIGHT without dilution in the amount column. But I also note the diluted weight on the same line as the ingredient name, so that I can change the amount easily to add more later if needed, so that I also know how much was initially placed into the solution at the diluted amount, in total.

    Then I don't have to do the math a third time, to gauge an appropriate amount to add in for more of that profile.

    I work additively, adding in more ingredients, until it becomes a mistake, or some other error or problem.

    David is used to making a new version every time, without adding in small refinements or changes.
    David also works out his formula ahead of time, and the compounding seems like it more a formality of completion and precision.

    I wish we all could have the capacity to work this way, it would be a cool thing to work that way. But I think that small perfume lab practicalities are different, certainly for me. I work in a different manner that serves to conserve raw materials, but then waiting for the inadvertent problem to intervene before starting the blend again, and making new changes to the mix.

    David's Method is a great method. You all will need to find the method that you can work well inside to complete your tasks.

    PK
    Last edited by pkiler; 18th April 2014 at 05:18 PM.
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  22. #22
    David Ruskin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Coumarin crystalsqq

    Quite agree Paul. I would add only a small addition. I usually made a fresh trial each time; a new version. However, occasionally I would use an old trial and try various small additions to portions of it. So I would take 10.0 gms of a trial and add a small amount of an item, to see the effect. The amount added was noted. When a new trial was developed the addition would be incorporated, and the final total rounded up or down to be 100.0. I do understand that I was very lucky to work in an environment that did not care about the amount of ingredients I used in developing a fragrance, and I do realise that most folk who read this Forum are not so lucky.

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