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Thread: Ginger?

  1. #1

    Default Ginger?

    Any good ginger chems out there I should be aware of?

    Or is C02 the way to go?

    tia

    e


  2. #2

    Default Re: Ginger?

    I'd like to know this too! I don't like the essential oil, and I have the CO2, which to me smells much more like the root. But I read something about gingerol converting to zingerone when the ginger is heated as in baking, and that zingerone is warmer and has a vanillic nuance. I'd be interested to find out whether zingerone has more of a 'gingerbread' like note than a sharp, spicy, lemony ginger root note.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Ginger?

    There are several types of ginger products, I like the Co2 variations best, but even inside of CO2's there are several... And thre Oleoresin is really nice in a diff direction too.

    PK
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  4. #4

    Default Re: Ginger?

    I really like my Ginger EO and C02, but was wondering if there was an Aroma Chem that did the job, too.

    I'm finding that, at first, the oils are very pronounced. But slip way WAY back over time.

    My thought is that there might be a way to treat Ginger like Lavendar, or Sandalwood, but ganging it up with some chems to extend it a bit.

    Hmmm....

  5. #5

    Default Re: Ginger?

    I’ve been doing some research into this and it turns out to be quite interesting (should I put on a purple suit and orange tie at this point?) anyway:

    To start with I looked up Zingerone and Zingiberene in Arctander and it turns out he has a fair bit to say about it:

    Zingiberene - often a major component of ginger oils - is described as “warm, woody-spicy and very tenacious” when freshly prepared but as liable to polymerise on exposure to air becoming “very viscous, eventually solid and practically odourless” that’s clearly not the characteristic of ginger and it’s his descriptions of zingerone that are more interesting:

    Odour of Zingerone:
    Sweet-spicy, warm, heavy-floral, mildly animal-balsamic and Vanilla-like odor with excellent tenacity.
    He goes on to talk about it’s uses in tobacco and leather fragrances, jasmine, ylang and gardenia bases before going on to this:

    The perfumery and flavor literature is particular stubborn in repeating (and quoting from other literature) that Zingerone is the pungent principle of Ginger. It is not so. And Zingerone does not have a conspicuously pungent taste. At least, pungency is not the characteristic feature of the flavor of Zingerone. It is an excellent flavor material, not only for Vanilla imitation, where – again – it gives interesting effects with Castoreum, but it is frequently used in many types of imitation fruit flavor, “root beer”, Spice blends, Ginger Ale (although it has very little Ginger-note to offer!!) and in tobacco flavorings.
    and he goes further:

    Fortunately, the more authoritative literature (E. Guenther, vol. V. page 119, and Gildemeister-Treibs, vol. IV, page 493 ) confirm, that the essential oil of Ginger does not contain Zingerone,
    He goes on to quote another source stating that zingerone is one of the constituents of the oleoresin before:

    However, it remains very questionable if Zingerone is present as such in Ginger rhizome. It is most conceivable that it is present in the shape of condensation products with lower alifatic aldehydes, particularly Hexanal and Heptanal, but also probably Nonanal and Decanal.
    The condensation product of Zingerene is distinctly pungent to the human taste.
    Steam distillation may well decompose the condensation product, thus releasing Hexanal, Heptanal, etc., all identified in Ginger (volatile) oil, while the remaining Zingerone portion of the decomposed product is very poorly distillable with steam, and will not show up in the essential oil.
    He concludes:
    One thing may be safely deducted from the above mixture of philosophy and facts: Zingerone is NOT the key to characteristic Ginger flavour or flavor effect
    So what then, does Arctander believe is the key to the characteristic pungency of ginger? That turns out to require a bit of detective work because he lists the material as Shogaol, which is he says:

    A part of "Gingerol"
    Following the basic description of its structure and properties he goes on to say:

    This ketone is one of the pungent principles in the Ginger rhizome and in the Oleoresin made from that natural material. Shogaol has little or no application in per- fumery, and very little interest to the flavor industry, but it is included in this work mainly for the purpose of elucidating the problems apparently existing around the description of the odor and flavor of “Zingerone”.
    The author feels, that the common description of Zingerone as being “pungent principle of Ginger” must be an unfortunate confusion of the sweet-and-warm, spicy tasting, but absolutely non-pungent ketone (Zingerone), with the title material, or its higher or lower homologies, all present in Ginger. In fact, the higher homologue is considered a major contributor to the pungency.


    This is turning into a very long post, so I’m going to stop for now and come back later with the results of further research . . .
    Last edited by Chris Bartlett; 28th November 2013 at 08:16 AM. Reason: minor corrections
    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Iím happy to quote: if you want free advice, thatís what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Ginger?

    Wow, it's like a mystery novel where everyone thinks Zingerone is the killer... awesome, I can't wait for the next episode!

  7. #7

    Default Re: Ginger?

    Who Killed Ginger? Episode 2 - The Lawrence Connection

    Shogaol, according to Wikipedia, is not ‘part of gingerol’ as Arctander has it, but a separate chemical formed from it in storage or upon heating. I’m personally not convinced by the Wiki explanation as if it was formed on heating you’d expect it to be present in the essential oil, which it does not appear to be. Also there isn’t much in the way of citation, but I mention it for what it’s worth.

    Just before moving on to another expert writer, I should mention that Arctander also talks a little about this matter in his more widely available work on natural materials in the monograph on Ginger Oleoresin (there are also monographs on Ginger Absolute and Ginger Oil, in which he makes it clear that the former is pungent and that latter is not, but he does not otherwise cover the question of why). I’m not going to the trouble of producing a lot of quotations from Perfume and Flavor Materials of Natural Origin because it is available online.

    OK so having consulted one expert on the subject of essential oils I naturally then turned to his modern equivalent, Brian Lawrence. I don’t have copies of all of his work by a long shot, but I do have enough that I was able to consult three separate articles on Ginger Oil. What Lawrence does is rather different from Arctander: he does not give personal observations of the characteristics of the oils, talk about typical usage and blending partners or anything of that sort, at least not usually. Instead he collects together and presents the finding of primary research by others (sometimes including his own), with only occasional commentary on the results.

    Amongst the articles I have, he cites a huge number of studies mainly analysing the contents of ginger oils produced by various methods, in different geographies and so on.

    One study is particularly helpful to the present question: the study, from 1995 by Nishimura, set out to establish the "Characteristic Odorants in Fresh Rhizomes of Ginger (Zingiber officinale Roscoe) Using Aroma Extract Dilution Analysis and Modified Multidimensional Gas Chromatography-Mass Spectroscopy”.

    The details of how they did it and the detailed results are well beyond the scope of this blog post, but the results are highly relevant to our enquiry and Lawrence concludes from them that the most important contributors to the odour of fresh ginger are:

    geraniol (20)
    linalool (20)
    geranial (17)
    citronellyl acetate (16)
    borneol (16)
    1,8-ceneole (15)
    neral (15)

    The values in parenthesis are FD or Flavour Dilution values - the ratio of the concentration in the pure extract to its concentration at the lowest level of detection, such that the higher the FD value, the more important the component is to the odour of the material being examined. They list zingiberenol with an FD value of 11 and a good number of other chemicals, some without FD values (including cis and trans rose oxides among others) but no zingerone or zingiberene: so that does appear to confirm that these are not present in the fresh root.

    However other studies Lawrence cites are not so clear and in particular I want to mention Bartley and Foley 1994, who made a CO2 extraction of fresh ginger root (no heating involved) and nevertheless found zingerone at 0.64% and zingiberene at a whopping 25.87%


    After hearing all the facts the jury returned an open verdict.
    Last edited by Chris Bartlett; 28th November 2013 at 05:22 PM. Reason: minor corrections
    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Iím happy to quote: if you want free advice, thatís what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Ginger?

    So, if I am understanding correctly, it was Zingiberene and seven accomplices, with the pipe wrench in the library. Zingerone was acquitted but may have played a minor role in the crime?

  9. #9

    Default Re: Ginger?

    I think it was Mr. Plum in the Library, with the Arctander over the victim's head.

    PK
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  10. #10

    Default Re: Ginger?

    This is all so incredibly interesting!

    Now, I wish I had somewhere I could get some zingiberene, or any of the other chems, lol.

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