Pass - but chag sameach anyway :)
After spending small fortunes on fakes, I'm trying to be careful.
Does this seem genuine to you :
I was doing a search, and came across this warning from Anya's
Do you guys side with her? Should I invest in synthetics instead?
Pass - but chag sameach anyway :)
Toda to you too?
The only truth is a lot of nonesense exists about Honeysuckle Absolute. To my knowledge it does not get produced. Many moons ago it was getting produced in Holland. I think we are talking about a few kilos for a lot of work and what happened is the company in question got bought out by one its clients - a well known fragrance house. Now under new ownership the the new owners pulled the plug on producing Honeysuckle. As I write I have never experienced true Honeysuckle abs and maybe I never will. What I do know is that an extrait was or maybe still does get produced by an Egyptian company. That I have smelled and I thought it was so so.
With regards to essential oils direct - its again total nonesense. Look at the msds - no16 - states Butylphenyl Methylpropional - that does not occur in nature. That company is an utter disgrace and the material smells like cheap and nasty air freshner. Keep your money, buy a lottery ticket, win a million and start producing Honeysuckle abs yourself.
I also saw emails from a reputable American perfumer - not naming who because I think she/he just screwed up and we all do it - but I checked it out and found out the referances she was passing around from a well known French naturals producer where total nonesense.
Synthetics are not my area but Im sure someone here can offer a solution. Adam
When my reputation was called into account over a material that she was not aware of, and was convinced that I was trying to send people to a new fake materials supplier, and then another moderator did this AGAIN over another materials supplier, I left that group to be free from this level of thought control and arrogance. Both times the supplier provided real and natural products. Both times their (NPG) position modified later. I had harsher words here, but I deleted them.
As it happens, I have here a Honeysuckle absolute from a very reputable supplier, that makes all manner of materials and extractions of the most amazing and multivaried raw materials. And it isn't from any of these sources quoted in the blog posts from A.
You'd be hard pressed to find another Perfumer ferreting out the cool, odd, and rare natural extractions than myself, but I do know that there are some.
Curiously, it seems that in the whole Fragrance arena, there is a myopic preoocupation with USA east coast materials, or those listed in Arctander or Gildemeister, and many many west coast materials have been hitherto nigh close to unknown, that I have been exploring and working with. And if you extrapolate that viewpoint out into the world, just because you have never heard of it before, and it's not listed in Arctander, or Gildemeister, or WHATEVER source you wish to consult and quote from, that certainly doesn't mean that it doesn't exist, and that it is therefore fake, just because you've never heard of it before. I could pull off my shelf at least 45 things NOT listed in Arctander.
Needless to say, there are MANY items of disagreement between myself and Natural Perfumers.
Last edited by pkiler; 28th November 2013 at 03:40 AM.
This place carries CO2 absolutes of some very rare and difficult to find florals, including honeysuckle. I have purchased from them a couple times and the supermarket down the street carries a large line of their products, I can vouch for the quality and customer service. Every essential oil of theirs I have purchased has been genuine, I highly doubt these are fake but I am not an expert and I have not purchased the honeysuckle.
Last edited by JEBeasley; 28th November 2013 at 03:55 AM.
Looking at their prices, I think I'll just wait till I get more basic chemicals and oils
before going crazy with spending. I've been ripped off once too many times.
Paul I wouldn't give it a second thought, I think anyone who is in the loop for long enough has a story or two about the NPG. And I also agree about the Arctander comment wholeheartedly, I can't top 45 materials myself!....yet!!... but I do have a fair few not in his book and have encountered many others who can put out some really unusual gems.
I agree about not hearing of the material does not mean its a fake BUT in this instance with theHoneysuckle Abs, if it is getting produced it has to be in tiny amounts so I think its fair to assume the vast majority of traders whom are supposedly selling it are not selling the real deal and more so when you consider some of these prices they are retailed at - less than a beer and a pack of cheese and onion crisps. Common sense says no chance.
But Paul, help me out here please! If you are vouching for this company then please please with cherries on top can you introduce me to them as I would love to see what they can offer.
JEBeasley - Over the past 8 years as a lover of absolutes over anything else one thing I come to realise is that anyone who peddles fake Honeysuckle nearly always peddles a Hyacinth abs. Also that saffron - I see this a fair bit and maybe its legit, more so taking into account what Paul is saying as I admit his comments have thrown me but for its worth the only company I trade with whom I know push Saffron products is Robertet and most of that is for the foods and flavours companies. They do offer a resinoid and the price is I think 5 figures GBP. Also the fact they do not put BN names next to many materials is crazy.
Adam, Perhaps I am naive, easily fooled or ignorant but I actually have the MedicineFlower saffron abs AND the Liberty Naturals saffron abs and they both smell identical to true saffron strands that I have in my kitchen, only concentrated. They stain yellow like saffron and are far more complex than safraleine. I obviously don't have access to any kind of diagnostic devices so I can not say with any level righteous convicition but they seem real to me...
Liberty naturals seem pretty cheap on some stuff.. Should I give them a go in the future? Hmm..
I'm not sure where you live but in the US Liberty has a very good reputation for their quality to price ratio. Everything I have purchased from them has been very good, their prices are reasonable and their service is good. They have an excellent reputation as far as I can tell and I have never heard a single bad word against them. I have spoken with them a couple of times with regards to questions I've had about their products and they have always been helpful.
I regularly purchase from Liberty Naturals, White Lotus Aromatics, Eden Botanicals, Perfumers Apprentice and CreatingPerfume with a few large purchases from MedicineFlower, Mountain Rose Herbs and one purchase from Camden Gray. So far I would say that my experience has been very good with all of those companies mentioned. Then again I have yet to have poor dealings with anyone with regards to essential oils and aroma chemicals. I'm a very skeptical person and I don't take feeling ripped off very well so I would definitely not hold back any punches if I thought I had been taken by someone. I'm sure there are many more good retailers in the US but those are ones I have had good dealings with.
I wish I could bookmark this post
And as the little flag that causes hateful stirring in viewers indicates,
I'm from Israel..
Oh, well now you've gone and done it, that little flag has unleashed my inner beast! kidding, lol! The same could be said for the American flag, I'm sure it elicits an unfavorable reaction in some. I usually copy and paste helpful posts into a notepad or word document and mark them with the URL, posters name and date. I started doing this a week ago because I was losing track of where my notes came from.
I've been telling myself I should do that with Rudolf Steiner quotes..
It was 3 months ago, and nothing happened..
In regards to the Saffron Abs. ..... I don't actually care what's in it. It's the odor profile that I like, and use in my Zaffran formulation.
I've talked with Liberty Naturals about this, what is seemingly a disconnect between what is probably one of the most costly rare raw materials stock, Saffron stamens, and the apparent price of the processed absolute. They haven't gotten back to me, but agreed that the cost seemed out of line in regards to the cost of the material they sell, and the cost of the materials to make what they sell.
Really, with a sample I received a few months ago of pure safranal, the odor profile is virtually the same. I haven't actually done a side/side comparison, but I know the scent of the abs pretty well, and when I sniffed the Safranal, I said, hmmm. it's the same thing...
I could imagine that the Saffron Abs is Safranal in a Hercolyn D / DPG base. But that's purely conjecture.
Last edited by pkiler; 29th November 2013 at 06:19 AM.
Months, if not even more than a year ago, Anya M said she was organizing gcms analysis of several supposedly authentic honeysuckles to prove once and for all if any were indeed natural. I have occasionally looked to see if the results have come out, but so far not as far as I know. Anyone know of an update on that?
I also have a saffron product, a co2 from a reputable supplier, but I always wondered how it was it was not 100 times more expensive (even though it was not cheap). I had always been meaning to post a thread on this question, so I am glad it has been brought up here. The raw stuff is euros 30,000/ kilo and so even if it had a highly improbable yield of 10% oil, that would mean euros 30,000 for 100 grams, or 300 euros per gram,, wholesale. Keeping in mind a 10% yield is probably wildly higher than what it would actually be. So unless this is some by-product using the dust from processing (and that this dust is somehow magically valueless compared to the stamens) or some other unknown thing, I think we must all face the fact that our little bottle of saffron abs or co2 is fake.
Nizan, speaking of your flag, you are in a part of the world where the lebanese cedar grows, and I know more than one here who would be delighted if we could find a good source for its oil.... Any ideas?
The Lebanon Cedar have a bit sweeter and more terpenic/lighter/more pine needle type scent, by a small margin, as compared the the Atlas.
I've tried many Atlas versions, and never warmed up to it.
No, I don't know of the Honeysuckle GCMS progress, or even of it's existence.
Gecko - I have a twig that someone brought me.. Other then that - they dont really grow here..
They need colder weather, and I can't really contact our northern neighbors.. But maybe theygrow in Turkey..
Paul, I hear what you are saying and to an extent I agree, if the odor profile is favorable and it does what you want it to do at a cost you are willing to pay then it shouldn't matter... but it does. If the material is Safranal then tell everyone it is Safranal and don't pass it off as something else. Is Safranal less expensive than the saffron abs? Are they intentionally taking people for a ride or turning a blind eye in the name of profit? if yes then I have a problem with it. I purchased saffron abs because I want to know what REAL saffron does in a perfume blend, I want the reference and the experience so that I can learn how to simulate it's effects or discover why I should chose an EO over an AC in a particular instance. If the saffron abs from Liberty is a forgery then it's a good one and it makes me wonder about MedicineFlower too, theirs is quite a bit more expensive than Liberty's. What about the people who might use saffron abs for culinary reasons? Do they exist? Would they be able to tell a difference? COuld I tell the difference if I tasted it? Would it make me sick if I tasted it? I also have the ambergris abs from MedicineFlower. To be honest it smells a lot more fecal than I ever expected Ambergris to smell, maybe it's a lesser quality ambergris, maybe it's baby shit in a bottle blended with some AC musks, if it is I'd certainly like to know because I can make that for myself at next to no cost.
This is one of the problems, as I see it, with being "on your own" so to speak. I don't have a one on one teacher with real ambergris they personally harvested and tinctured, or purchased from a trusted source, showing me what true Ambergris is. I purchased ambergris and saffron abs to have a historical reference point for "the real deal" from which to work. Not because it's some super magic mystery whale poop in a bottle or because it's hand picked by shamans. If it isn't real then I don't have a close to genuine historical reference point to work from, only a relativistic reference point set by someones creative and modern interpretation of ambergris that they are trying to pass off as ambergris at exorbitant cost. That is like me trying to paint a portrait from someone elses painted portrait, of a painted portrait... I also don't REALLY have any idea if an AC should be used over a natural in these cases because all I know is the relative reference that may be an AC anyway.
To be honest this is the kind of crap that makes me want to turn away from natural touting carpet-baggers altogether because at least the aroma chem people aren't trying to sell me safranal as saffron abs at ten times the cost. They are up front with the fact that it is an aroma chemical and it cost's X amount, pay it or don't pay it, what you smell is what you get. From now on I won't recommend any particular vendor and I feel disheartened by the idea that I can't really trust people enough to make a safe recommendation. I'm not sure why I'm surprised, I've already had this lesson in other aren's of my life; perhaps, just for once, I wanted to feel a little less guarded
Unfortunately the herbal medicinal industry is rife with these problems too. With the herbal products industry it's not just smell alike herbs used in potpourri, it's look alikes and smell alikes labeled and sold as a particular medicinal herb and capped up as pills that people rely on for their health. Sometimes what's in the caplets might be saw-dust and it doesn't have the same effect (or any) on the body as the real herb would. My wife has worked in the industry, we know which brands to trust but most people just buy what's cheap, assuming some watchdog or government agency regulates this stuff. Unfortunately as soon as you bring in any kind of government regulation then the entire industry becomes subject to corporate lobby money "helping" to dictate what can and can not be sold legally to the general public. But without regulation and without open and honest public education about the subject then the industry goes to the dogs and becomes filled with snake oil salesman and thugs and people buy blindly from someone who is being intentionally misleading in order to make extra $.
JEB - After realizing this market two weeks ago I also felt cheated. However,
I consider is an opportunity in learning discernment and paying attention to
gut feelings. I used to just ignore them, but I think it'll be a good practice to
listen to them (not necessarily abide by them). The global market thing allows
people who aren't really scam-artists, but just scams, to get away with a lot
more than they could have face-to-face.
JEBeasley, I see MedicineFlower sell "Ambergris Absolute" at $13.58 for 1 gram. Just for comparison, the only other supplier I know of for ambergris absolute, Douglas Stewart / Scentsual Antiquities, sells it at $150 for 1 gram. His smells like very fine ambergris and it is a solid, crumbly material. What kind of consistency is the product you received from MedicineFlower?
Don't be daunted by this experience, JEBeasley. There will be some more discouraging lessons on this path, so keep a stiff upper lip!
On the saffron: in Germany you don't get saffron absolue as it comes under narcotic regulations. Saffron is also called the laughing death. In small amounts it's thymoleptic, in overdose it's lethal. You would have a truly trippy experience, though it might be your last. Given it's not a fake. Otherwise, we'll see you back like this:
My experience told me when it comes to EO there is no such thing as a bargain or goedkoop. I now buy mostly certified organic EOs when they are available. More costly, but better quality. Certified organic in Germany means something quite different than in the US. The labels here are really reliable and comparatively strict (though some have lower standards than others).
This is something that astonishes me about Medicine Flowers. Their offers of certified organically grown flower absolues do not state the country of origin. Usually in Europe they are very, very accurate concerning this, otherwise they couldn't proof its organic cultivation. Plus, at MF they are not remarkably more expensive than the conventionally grown stuff elsewhere.
Regarding the AC I'd like to know if there can be differences in quality. When one supplier in the UK sells 10 ml Aldehyde C12 MNA for £7,99 and another supplier in the Netherlands 10 ml for 3€ – well then I don't hesitate and order my stuff from the latter. And this comparison makes me certainly wonder how it comes to the pricing of the EOs on the UK seller's page. Maybe it's a question of their own source, how expensive they buy their stock.
http://www.medicineflower.com/abmefl.html - is because their products are sold in a local health market a few miles from me, they have a large display filled with sample bottles. All of their essential oils seem high quality and hold their own compared to many other "quality" oils I have. So, this then makes me question the quality of ALL of the vendors I've ever purchased from. Has technology become advanced enough that rip-off artists can fabricate a VERY VERY convincing product? If so then what guarantees do we have AT ALL?
- - - Updated - - -
- - - Updated - - -
Last edited by JEBeasley; 29th November 2013 at 07:04 PM.
Looks like updating the Suppliers' sticky is a priority....in progress, please bear with.
Last edited by lpp; 29th November 2013 at 08:07 PM.
Seems that for me, that's the only way these things penetrate my thickI love learning opportunities but learning how to mistrust people isn't the kind of learning opportunity I would willingly pay money for.
I purchased Civet paste and Castoreum from a trapper site so that I could compare the "real" ingredients with the synthetics. In these cases I believe that I have the real deal because the ones I think are natural(s) performance is very different from the synthetic. The Castoreum blend from PA is nowhere near as deep, rich and dimensional as the "real" trapper castoreum. The PA version is flatter, more dull, card-boardy and lacks something I can only define as "dimensional transparency" compared to the castoreum tincture from the trapper site. The civet I have fills my whole downstairs floor with civet smell and lasts for weeks on a smelling strip. That said, I have no idea if I've been fleeced there either. While the trapper versions seem to be of MUCH higher quality, more transparent, dimensional and more complex who is to say that the trapper versions aren't just more well blended synthetics or partially synthetic? I'm not an expert in castoreum or civet, and for all I know every material I own EO or AC is entirely overpriced muddy trash not suitable for perfumery.
There REALLY needs to be some kind of vetting process. Having a suppliers sticky is a good start but that too relies on me (everyone) assuming that there isn't some kind of financial incentive for recommending certain suppliers (crap product or not) over others. I have no problem paying for quality materials but as a newbie if I can't blend a quality perfume due to materials being muddy, rancid, old, oxidized, etc then I don't know the difference anyway, right? How do I know that AC's purchased from PA aren't oxidized if I've never smelled a fresh product? I'm not calling anyone out or wanting to poison anyones well and perhaps my question is merely philosophical but for that matter why should I trust anyones opinion here, or anywhere who sells their own product? Anyone with a profit motive has incentive to refute the claims of the competition in order to funnel business in their direction. I have no problem buying from someone I trust and I actually WANT to support members here who are helpful and supportive but if I'm being fleeced from every direction then how do I know which end is up and how can I be sure that the products I'm buying are usable in a way that facilitates quality or artistry in perfumery? In this hypothetical case I could be beating my head against a wall that never has any give and the only way I'll know for sure is when I'm suddenly on the "inside" which usually means "when I have enough money to pay like the big players do"...
When I talk with kids wanting to learn how to play guitar I tell them to buy the best quality guitar they can afford because a poor quality instrument is hard to play, is pitch innacurate and is extremely discouraging to the learning process. The quality of a good guitar is dependent on some very clearly defined material, stability, connections, parts and accurate measurements. Perfumery materials are similar with respect to the artistic principal but the evidence of usability and quality are more esoteric. If everything I buy is rancid, muddy and poorly crafted fakes then everything I blend with them is going to smell muddy, a newbie doesn't know how to compensate for any undesirable or foul notes in a blend, they are still trying to understand the materials. How can anyone learn this discipline without any guarantee of quality?
Last edited by JEBeasley; 29th November 2013 at 08:38 PM. Reason: clarity
I want to make it clear that I don't have a problem with Liberty naturals, in Fact, I recommend them.
This Saffron issue is an industry wide situation, not unique to Liberty. I've gotten similar responses to my own when posting this idea/question to other perfumers in India and a couple of other countries that I can't remember.
As far as Ambergris goes, the variability in odor profile is very wide, PLUS, adulteration and substitution is rampant. This is a definite Caveat Emptor, (Sorry for the Latin again JEB...)
Some comes sweet, some more like poop. Ambergris is in fact a digestive tract product that exits out the back door, and so needs adequate time to remove the poopy smell while bobbing around in the sun.
Liberty is on there already, Paul - there are a few others that people here also use that aren't included properly in the main post as yet.
All suggestions welcome please!
Last edited by lpp; 30th November 2013 at 06:50 PM.
I ordered some stuff from Bristol Botanicals.. Can't really tell if it's
synthetic, but I can say that it's better then some stuff I got from
India. Some of their absolutes are 3 figure numbers for 5ml, so
they might be legit. Or expensive..