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  1. #1
    Basenotes Junkie Nizan's Avatar
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    Default Mitti attar reconstruction minus the sandalwood

    I have two bottle of mitti attar (one really cheap, one expensive, both smell the same),
    and wondered if there's a way to get just the smell of clay without the sandalwood
    background..
    I've seen some posts on humus tincture and I know geosmin smells like earth, but I
    can't really tell if that's the source of that dried clay smell.. (Also saw some other
    chems mentioned, but I can't find them for sale anywhere, and from the description
    it doesn't sound like that note anyway).

    Any ideas?
    Anyone ever used mitti in a mix?

    Thanks!

  2. #2
    Paul Kiler
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    Default Re: Mitti attar reconstruction minus the sandalwood

    http://www.thegoodscentscompany.com/odor/earthy.html

    http://www.thegoodscentscompany.com/odor/humus.html

    http://www.thegoodscentscompany.com/odor/rooty.html



    2-ethyl-3-methoxypyrazine 25680-58-4

    2 METHOXY 3 ETHYL PYRAZINE. Odor: Earth, clay, pepper. Frutarom 2- methoxy-3-ethyl pyrazine M&U International 2- METHOXY-3-ETHYL PYRAZINE.
    www.thegoodscentscompany.com


    2-sec-butyl-3-methoxypyrazine 24168-70-5

    Odor: Clay, vegetable odor. Frutarom 2- methoxy-3-(1-methyl propyl) pyrazine Frutarom 2- SECBUTYL-3(5/6)-METHOXYPYRAZINE. ≥99.00% (sum of ...
    www.thegoodscentscompany.com

    Bedoukian ResearchTERRASOL 50msds
    Odor: earthy, fresh soil
    Use: Enhances woody, mossy, earthy notes.

    Symrise
    TerranolOdor: very natural woody-green with fresh mossy aspects, reminiscent of aromatic fir balsam- and patchouli nuances








    You're right, there are not places that sell these materials in small quantities less than 1 kilo. All of us Artisanal perfumers have had to do group buys and split up kilos to obtain them. All group buys of perfumery raw materials take place off BN due to BN rules.

    PK
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  3. #3
    Basenotes Junkie Nizan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mitti attar reconstruction minus the sandalwood

    Thanks! I missed the 2 METHOXY 3 ETHYL PYRAZINE - I was looking for
    things which are not mossy or woody. I probably won't be able to find it
    anyhow, just like geosmin. How do you coordinate the buys then? The
    Yahoo group?
    I just tried mitty with katrafay.. Really brings out the dryness..

    - - - Updated - - -

    Hmm.. Maybe I should just use PA's earth fragrance till there's a buy?

  4. #4
    Paul Kiler
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    Default Re: Mitti attar reconstruction minus the sandalwood

    Were you aware that Frutarom is Israeli?


    PK
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  5. #5
    Basenotes Junkie Nizan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mitti attar reconstruction minus the sandalwood

    No.. Thanks!
    Since they're local, they might be willing to sell small quantities.
    I also saw they have some pretty weird natural ingredients, like roots and barks..
    Hopefully they'll answer tomorrow

  6. #6
    Paul Kiler
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    Default Re: Mitti attar reconstruction minus the sandalwood

    If I were to build a clay scent, I'd start with much more easily obtainable components like Terrasol, Terranol, and Humus Ether. But then, Chris Bartlett did tell me he's wangled some amount of cheaper Geosmin than the first buy we made... But still, the Geosmin is a single molecule, and you could easily want to round it out with other materials.

    Mitti Vetiver is also very interesting too. Which is dirt distilled into Vetiver.

    As always, the big trouble of dealing with Indian (and Chinese) Fragrance companies is the issue of trust, and materials sold without adulteration. However, the Indian Attar Industry is in steep decline, and we would be wise to support those Manufacturers and vendors that make these materials, if trusted, or they may be lost to history.


    PK
    Last edited by pkiler; 13th December 2013 at 10:55 PM.
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  7. #7
    Basenotes Junkie Nizan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mitti attar reconstruction minus the sandalwood

    Paul - couldn't find any of those in small quantities :/
    Last edited by lpp; 13th December 2013 at 11:04 PM.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Mitti attar reconstruction minus the sandalwood

    Just a few thoughts,
    I found a few interesting videos on attar making on youtube. Looks like Mitti Attar is co distilled with soil, in a clay distillation apparatus. In the video they are shown making vessels of clay but it isn't clear what they do with them. It's possible the clay vessels are used for storing and aging the oils. Mitti Attar
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vz4DGTue98U
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXjfPstJYqM
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJQfDezOPug

    I know that one of the main soil organisms that gives clay and soil that distinct earthy, dirt, smell is soil borne actinomycetes bacteria. I used to use them as a foliar anti-fungal when I grew gardens, they keep mold and mildews at bey. They smell of loam and have a dusty clay-ish note, also rooty, etc. I'd venture to guess that Geosmin is probably going to be your best bet in trying to reproduce that smell since actinomyces produces it.
    http://www.microbelibrary.org/librar...-actinomycetes "The smell of freshly turned soil is due to metabolic end products called geosmins"

    Without Geosmin I would think you could try aging the oil in a clay jar and use patchouli, mushroom and other grasses and roots to get some of that earthy rooty smell going on. The soil they distill might contain certain roots or a particular strain of bacteria or mycelium.
    Last edited by JEBeasley; 13th December 2013 at 05:57 PM.
    Justin E. Beasley

  9. #9
    Paul Kiler
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    Default Re: Mitti attar reconstruction minus the sandalwood

    Since Mitti's are a natural, and quite variable material, due to being honorably made by family secret formulations learned over many years. We have to interpret them. Frankly, when I smell the Mittis that I have, I smell more of the substrate than of the clay/dirt, at least from the bottle.

    It probably takes more intimacy with them to deconstruct them more than I can now.
    I didn't put them on a strip yet, and don't have the time.

    In the two sandalwood mitti's I have, I smell the sandalwood in the topnote. In the Vetiver Mitti, I smell the vetiver more than I do the dirt.

    So then to work out what might be a dirt/petrichor/clay/earthy scent (and not trying to copy a Mitti), I think it could easily be a blend of the Geosmin as Beasley says, + other choices too, but again, Geosmin can be devilishly difficult to obtain.

    But the other materials that I'd work with as well are these:

    Vetimoss (Vetylbois) (Innospec)
    Terrasol 50 (2-ethyl-fenchol + arbanol) (Bedoukian)
    Terranol (Moss Napthaleneol) (Symrise) (but with less preference than terrasol 50)
    Humus Ether (Methyl Fenchol) (Takasago)
    Amyl vinyl Carbinol (1-octen-3-ol, Mushroom Alcohol, Matsutakeol) (multiple Mfr's)

    Then there's also the premade base/blend / Fragrance Oil from TGSC called Earth that could work all by itself, if you can get it.
    Buy it here:
    http://www.thegoodscentscompany.com/...html#plz100084


    Naturals that could also blend well with this is Cypriol/Nagarmotha, Vetiver, Valerian, and Costus/Costausol (synth), and maybe the tiniest touch of Mushroom Abs.


    PK
    Last edited by pkiler; 13th December 2013 at 11:04 PM.
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  10. #10

    Default Re: Mitti attar reconstruction minus the sandalwood

    The mitti I have from 10 years ago or so smells mostly like sandalwood also, with just a touch of humus/earth.

    I also have a small amount of something I blended about that long ago also, which smells close. I rolled small beads of air-dry terrecotta (real) clay and submerged them in sandalwood oil for several years, gently heating and shaking every season or so. It smelled fairly good after a year or less, but I haven't used it much, just sniff occasionally, and it still smells really close to my original mitti attar.

    Also, here is an older link from Chrisopher McMahon's White Lotus site that is useful.
    http://www.whitelotusaromatics.com/newsletters/mitti

    I agree that we should patronize these small attar businesses as much as possible to keep them alive.
    Last edited by Nymphaea; 13th December 2013 at 07:45 PM.

  11. #11
    Basenotes Junkie Nizan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mitti attar reconstruction minus the sandalwood

    Thanks guys. I didnt see those posts before. I might try to do some maceration with clay, if I could get some. I guess dried pottery clay would work?

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Mitti attar reconstruction minus the sandalwood

    Couldn't hurt to try Nizan. If you could find an unglazed pottery vessel to age your blend in perhaps that would work -or- follow Nymphaea's advice and make some air-dried clay balls to submerge into your mixture. I think it would be an interesting experiment to tincture dirt(s), maybe lichen...
    Justin E. Beasley

  13. #13
    Basenotes Junkie Nizan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mitti attar reconstruction minus the sandalwood

    I think I won't have any trouble getting clay. They even sell that in plant nurseries (if
    that's what you call them? ). Though they don't have a very strong scent..

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Mitti attar reconstruction minus the sandalwood

    Quote Originally Posted by Nizan View Post
    I think I won't have any trouble getting clay. They even sell that in plant nurseries (if
    that's what you call them? ). Though they don't have a very strong scent..
    If you're talking about the hydroponic plant substrate hydroton then I think it is made of clay... http://www.amazon.com/Hydroton-Leca-...ef=pd_sbs_lg_1
    Although one description said they were porcelain, I don't know the difference, it's probably a composite. I've used hydroton, it smells more "clay-ish" when it gets wet but it is VERY mild smelling. You'd probably get more smell from fresh clay but I don't know. For that matter you could also buy some organic soil and tincture it for that humous and geosmin note.
    Justin E. Beasley

  15. #15
    Basenotes Junkie Nizan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mitti attar reconstruction minus the sandalwood

    I have some hummus for my plants.. Doesn't smell like much when it's
    dry, so I guess it won't give out anything when tinctured?

  16. #16
    Paul Kiler
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    Default Re: Mitti attar reconstruction minus the sandalwood

    Quote Originally Posted by Nizan View Post
    I have some hummus for my plants.. Doesn't smell like much when it's
    dry, so I guess it won't give out anything when tinctured?
    But what does it smell like wet? as in "TINCTURE"?

    PK
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  17. #17
    Basenotes Junkie Nizan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mitti attar reconstruction minus the sandalwood

    I'll check tomorrow
    (I thought that the things that dissolve in water aren't necessarily the ones that
    will dissolve into the alcohol)

  18. #18
    Paul Kiler
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    Default Re: Mitti attar reconstruction minus the sandalwood

    Quote Originally Posted by Nizan View Post
    I'll check tomorrow
    (I thought that the things that dissolve in water aren't necessarily the ones that
    will dissolve into the alcohol)

    Yes certainly there are things that don't cross dissolve, but many do, and then, if you tincture with a higher water content alcohol, like say 150 or 170 proof, instead of 200 or 190 proof, then you still get some of the water only dissolving volatiles into solution. And since you are using only a small portion of your tincture as an element in a perfume, this small amopunt of water won't (probably) pose clouding issues in your alcohol later, but will carry the volatiles.

    PK
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
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    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Mitti attar reconstruction minus the sandalwood

    Ambrinol 1%

  20. #20
    Basenotes Junkie Nizan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mitti attar reconstruction minus the sandalwood

    Another of those hard to source materials (in small quantities)..

  21. #21
    Paul Kiler
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    Default Re: Mitti attar reconstruction minus the sandalwood

    Quote Originally Posted by NataliCruel View Post
    Ambrinol 1%
    Or Ambrinol 95, but it's not any easier to get in small qtys, but I have a sample of both and think they are valuable.
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
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    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

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