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  1. #61

    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Quote Originally Posted by lpp View Post
    That's actually a very interesting point - if a product is claimed to be totally natural (as still stated on the quoted website, for example) but adulteration is an 'ongoing problem', are there any safeguards in place to protect the consumer who is probably not even aware of that possibility?

    April Aromatics About Us page
    great question lpp,

    i have been asking this for years.....

    so it was my understanding to put some begining safegaurds in place, one of the first steps the NPG took,
    was too release guidelines for natural isolate use, for their natural perfumers.
    but as noted here, that came under attack....

    how does that saying go over here.... damned if you do, damned if you don't?

    seems very confusing to me...

  2. #62
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    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Thanks for replying, luigi_g - my normal state tends towards confusion!

  3. #63

    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Quote Originally Posted by luigi_g View Post
    sorry Chris,
    my post was not directed towards you, i asked JayH the question in response to his question of leaf-alcohol....that is all...

    i use aroma chems, and some naturals....so i could care less what is used in a fragrance....or who uses what....
    Apology accepted and reciprocated, I seem to have gone off on a rant . . .

    On the protection of consumers thing, I agree that there are some areas that are quite difficult such as isolates and so on, but in most cases itís pretty clear when something isnít natural and Amber Core is as synthetic as you can get.

    Whether the perfumer in this case was the fraudster or the victim is unclear but there is no doubt that anyone who buys that stuff is being deceived, and that canít be right.
    ďA person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person
    ― Dave Barry

    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Iím happy to quote: if you want free advice, thatís what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  4. #64

    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    The thing is, if a line is drawn with Ďnaturalsí, then really Natural Perfumers should not blend any Ďnaturalí essential oil or product with something else, as doing so will change itís chemical structure into something not found in nature. The act itself of combining seems to defy the purpose of claiming a natural product.

    If you combine two essential oils or absolutes, the constituents in these combine to become something else. Two oils may have hundreds of different molecules, and by combining them, reactions occur, react and morph, condense, etc., thus producing aromas and chemicals that can no longer be perceived as what Nature combined by itself. They did not arise together, and thus, are not Ďnaturalí.

    These new modalities of molecules are now no different than many synthetic products combined to create a scent that is not found in nature on itís own, and isnít that really the whole point of touting natural products?

  5. #65

    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Quote Originally Posted by Nymphaea View Post
    The thing is, if a line is drawn with ‘naturals’, then really Natural Perfumers should not blend any ‘natural’ essential oil or product with something else, as doing so will change it’s chemical structure into something not found in nature. The act itself of combining seems to defy the purpose of claiming a natural product.

    If you combine two essential oils or absolutes, the constituents in these combine to become something else. Two oils may have hundreds of different molecules, and by combining them, reactions occur, react and morph, condense, etc., thus producing aromas and chemicals that can no longer be perceived as what Nature combined by itself. They did not arise together, and thus, are not ‘natural’.

    These new modalities of molecules are now no different than many synthetic products combined to create a scent that is not found in nature on it’s own, and isn’t that really the whole point of touting natural products?
    I do see the logic of this argument, but you need to keep in mind that an essential oil has been produced by distillation: a process which itself has already altered the blend of molecules that were present in the leaves, flowers or whatever before that process took place. Heat causes many chemical changes and in some cases even before the heating, materials are produced that did not previously exist in the plant. See my post on Bitter Almond Oil for an extreme example of this, where the entire oil consists of chemicals that did not exist at all in the starting material.

    If you want to argue that only that which mother nature provides has therapeutic or spiritual value then your options as a purist are very limited indeed: as I said earlier other than the expressed citrus oils and copaiba balsam it’s tough to think of a single perfumery material that has not been significantly altered in processing by humans.
    Last edited by Chris Bartlett; 7th January 2014 at 08:15 AM. Reason: minor corrections
    ďA person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person
    ― Dave Barry

    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Iím happy to quote: if you want free advice, thatís what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  6. #66

    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Bartlett View Post
    Apology accepted and reciprocated, I seem to have gone off on a rant . . .

    On the protection of consumers thing, I agree that there are some areas that are quite difficult such as isolates and so on, but in most cases itís pretty clear when something isnít natural and Amber Core is as synthetic as you can get.

    Whether the perfumer in this case was the fraudster or the victim is unclear but there is no doubt that anyone who buys that stuff is being deceived, and that canít be right.
    Chris,
    I agree totally, and that was not an isolated case, so yes, it is not right at all...

  7. #67
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    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    I'd like to apologize if my comments were harmful. I tend to go a little commando sometimes with colorful descriptions, etc but my intention albeit harsh was/is, constructive, even if it doesn't appear to be that way. All I can say is that I'm not always great at being as diplomatic as I'd like to be. It's not my intent to do harm or confuse the issues but in general, as I see it, the matter is not and can not be clearly defined and yet there is an organization in existence claiming to be absolute authority on a subject with far too many grey areas to be defined. Anyway, hope I haven't riled too many feathers, I enjoy the time I spend here and I wouldn't want to compromise this interactivity in any way or piss off the people I enjoy interacting with.
    Justin E. Beasley

  8. #68
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    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    You shouldn't apologize for your eloquently phrased retorts nor for your opinions I thank the stars that there is someone as honest and passionate as you here to keep in line some of the info that sneaks through. Thank you again

  9. #69

    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Does the NPG claim to be the ultimate authority? From what I read here it seems it's a group of people who got together to draw the lines on what they all feel comfortable calling 'natural'. The rest is probably the result of the nature of organizations and human interactions.

  10. #70
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    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Quote Originally Posted by Cason View Post
    You shouldn't apologize for your eloquently phrased retorts nor for your opinions I thank the stars that there is someone as honest and passionate as you here to keep in line some of the info that sneaks through. Thank you again
    I rarely regret saying something or acting but I often apologize for the way I've said something and in some cases I think I didn't make myself clear as I should have in order to be most constructive or productive - then again without decomposition and destruction there is sometimes no change. Anyway, hopefully it's water under the bridge... I'll stop now... just because ;D
    Justin E. Beasley

  11. #71
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    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Quote Originally Posted by Nizan View Post
    Does the NPG claim to be the ultimate authority? From what I read here it seems it's a group of people who got together to draw the lines on what they all feel comfortable calling 'natural'. The rest is probably the result of the nature of organizations and human interactions.
    It may be more prominent in the USA?

    Their website states that it is the 'only worldwide organisation dedicated to 100% natural perfumery' and offers apprenticeships, etc.

  12. #72
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    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Quote Originally Posted by JEBeasley View Post
    I'd like to apologize if my comments were harmful. I tend to go a little commando sometimes with colorful descriptions, etc but my intention albeit harsh was/is, constructive, even if it doesn't appear to be that way. All I can say is that I'm not always great at being as diplomatic as I'd like to be. It's not my intent to do harm or confuse the issues but in general, as I see it, the matter is not and can not be clearly defined and yet there is an organization in existence claiming to be absolute authority on a subject with far too many grey areas to be defined. Anyway, hope I haven't riled too many feathers, I enjoy the time I spend here and I wouldn't want to compromise this interactivity in any way or piss off the people I enjoy interacting with.
    Discussions will sometimes get a bit intense - provided there's no bad language, name-calling (or other random rule-breaking), expressing one's views shouldn't ever be a problem!

  13. #73
    Paul Kiler
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    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Quote Originally Posted by Nizan View Post
    Does the NPG claim to be the ultimate authority?
    The NPG claims a lot of things...

    PK
    Paul Kiler
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    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  14. #74

    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    For some reason, I didn't receive any updates about posts since Sunday, and I see there's been a lot of chat. What a topic, eh? It's been going on since at least 2005, first appearing in Luca's blog. Did I write this here before: what if we were weavers using only natural fibers and had a guild? Or weren't even in a guild, just happily weaving away with materials we like? Would faith-based, fanatical, and other disparaging terms be applied to us by those who wove/liked materials made with some synthetic fibers? I just don't get it, truly. We don't care what others are making perfumes with, we've banded together to pursue our interests, aesthetically, legislatively, and on other fronts. Just like any segment of the population, we all have our differing reasons for working with naturals. So?

    What I don't understand are insults and remarks made with contempt towards others (and I'm not just writing about forums like this, look at 'screaming match' tv panels). You don't respect/like what others make or say? You can ignore them or their products. One of my students posted a bit about her religious belief the other day on Facebook, and it had to do with the societal expectations of Confucians, not the religion: courtesy. She wrote that courtesy and gratitude are prized standards in her religion. The Bible also says a bit about this subject: Matthew 5:22 that ďif you call someone an idiot, you are in danger of being brought before the court; and if you curse someone, you are in danger of the fires of hell.Ē Calling someone an idiot isn't new, it's just the Internet lets more folks post insults from the safety of their room, not face-to-face.

    If someone has a problem with the NPG, I don't see how our organization has anything to do with you. We nurture each others art, try to protect our use of the term "natural" in the legislative vortex, and basically keep to ourselves. I'm not offended or surprised that we're drawn into this thread, as we're the only organization of our kind, we're successful, and we're the only perfumery group that has given free publications to the perfume community (pH paper, quotes paper, many other publications, including the white paper to boycott IFRA). So, we have a high profile.

    PS: we are inclusive to perfumers who use synths, despite what some keep asserting.
    PPS: Michel Roudnitska gifted me with some of his father's papers in English a few years ago, you might like to download them from my site. I still have a 48-page one to scan, and that should be up in a month or so. Yes, he used synths! Yes, we honor him, we're inclusive.
    Anya McCoy - http://anyasgarden.com/
    Best of the Best awards - Perfume: MoonDance, StarFlower, Amberess, Light, Royal Lotus and as
    Project Leader: Outlaw Perfume and Mystery of Musk
    Basic Perfumery Course with lifetime access to the website - http://perfumeclasses.com
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  15. #75

    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Quote Originally Posted by JEBeasley View Post
    I
    As for the things you see as personal insults, it's unfortunate that you can't separate self from other and choose to identify generalized statements made about an entire industry as personal attacks. This seems more like you wanting to see them as direct personal attacks in order to justify refuting my opinion in it's entirety instead of addressing any of my observations. I'm not personally attacking you, I don't know you, have anything against you or know anything about you for that matter. I was speaking generally about an industry and you internalized what I said. I'll watch my colorful metaphors in future as doing harm is definitely not my intention.
    I didn't for one moment think you were attacking me personally. I read it as a general insult to all natural perfumers. Hope I cleared that up.
    Anya McCoy - http://anyasgarden.com/
    Best of the Best awards - Perfume: MoonDance, StarFlower, Amberess, Light, Royal Lotus and as
    Project Leader: Outlaw Perfume and Mystery of Musk
    Basic Perfumery Course with lifetime access to the website - http://perfumeclasses.com
    America's First Natural Perfume Line 1991
    First Artisan Perfumer Voted in as member of the American Society of Perfumery 2013

  16. #76

    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Quote Originally Posted by Nizan View Post
    Does the NPG claim to be the ultimate authority? From what I read here it seems it's a group of people who got together to draw the lines on what they all feel comfortable calling 'natural'. The rest is probably the result of the nature of organizations and human interactions.
    We're a group of like-minded people. Ultimate authority? Who ever implied that? We like natural aromatics, and we want to make sure we can call ourselves "natural perfumers" according to the law. Don't want to be in the Guild? Fine. It's a world of free will, we chose our own paths.
    Anya McCoy - http://anyasgarden.com/
    Best of the Best awards - Perfume: MoonDance, StarFlower, Amberess, Light, Royal Lotus and as
    Project Leader: Outlaw Perfume and Mystery of Musk
    Basic Perfumery Course with lifetime access to the website - http://perfumeclasses.com
    America's First Natural Perfume Line 1991
    First Artisan Perfumer Voted in as member of the American Society of Perfumery 2013

  17. #77
    Paul Kiler
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    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Quote Originally Posted by Natural_Juice View Post
    we're inclusive.
    I know that many people's experience is different from this.

    PK
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  18. #78

    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Quote Originally Posted by lpp View Post
    It may be more prominent in the USA?

    Their website states that it is the 'only worldwide organisation dedicated to 100% natural perfumery' and offers apprenticeships, etc.
    We have members in France, Italy, Tahiti, Seychelles, several African countries, Brazil, Japan, Australia, England, Ireland, Germany, Norway, Canada, Nepal - and that's just off the top of my head, other countries are represented.
    Anya McCoy - http://anyasgarden.com/
    Best of the Best awards - Perfume: MoonDance, StarFlower, Amberess, Light, Royal Lotus and as
    Project Leader: Outlaw Perfume and Mystery of Musk
    Basic Perfumery Course with lifetime access to the website - http://perfumeclasses.com
    America's First Natural Perfume Line 1991
    First Artisan Perfumer Voted in as member of the American Society of Perfumery 2013

  19. #79

    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post
    I know that many people's experience is different from this.

    PK
    Well, I guess you're the expert, Paul, you always seem so interested in us. You do realize some folks are voted out for misrepresentation, violating rules, etc? The members are expected to read the Code and adhere to it, or they can leave, no hard feelings. And then there are those who realize that honoring the other members by being truthful works.

    It's worked for us all for going on eight years, and I hope it works for you, too, unless your interest in us is something I don't understand.
    Anya McCoy - http://anyasgarden.com/
    Best of the Best awards - Perfume: MoonDance, StarFlower, Amberess, Light, Royal Lotus and as
    Project Leader: Outlaw Perfume and Mystery of Musk
    Basic Perfumery Course with lifetime access to the website - http://perfumeclasses.com
    America's First Natural Perfume Line 1991
    First Artisan Perfumer Voted in as member of the American Society of Perfumery 2013

  20. #80

    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Quote Originally Posted by luigi_g View Post
    so it was my understanding to put some beginning safeguards in place, one of the first steps the NPG took,
    was too release guidelines for natural isolate use, for their natural perfumers.
    but as noted here, that came under attack....

    how does that saying go over here.... damned if you do, damned if you don't?

    seems very confusing to me...
    Nothing we can do about the attacks, Bruce, just move forward with what we believe are safeguards in place that will help protect those who call themselves natural perfumers, in the Guild.
    Anya McCoy - http://anyasgarden.com/
    Best of the Best awards - Perfume: MoonDance, StarFlower, Amberess, Light, Royal Lotus and as
    Project Leader: Outlaw Perfume and Mystery of Musk
    Basic Perfumery Course with lifetime access to the website - http://perfumeclasses.com
    America's First Natural Perfume Line 1991
    First Artisan Perfumer Voted in as member of the American Society of Perfumery 2013

  21. #81
    Paul Kiler
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    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    I'm not sure that a trial of the NPG is what you're after Anya...

    But saying nothing in response to statements allows subtle endorsements of those statements, for which many people disagree.
    I don't need to trot out quotes by Edmund Burke, or speak the Latin that I know.

    I just need to speak in resistance.
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  22. #82

    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post
    I'm not sure that a trial of the NPG is what you're after Anya...
    But saying nothing in response to statements allows subtle endorsements of those statements, for which many people disagree.
    I don't need to trot out quotes by Edmund Burke, or speak the Latin that I know.
    I just need to speak in resistance.
    A trial, lol? Why are you so obsessed? You were never a member, and no members, past or present, have the odd obsession you seem to have with us, following my posts, etc. You can speak in resistance all you want, but unless you are speaking from first-hand experience, not gossip, it just rolls off. I've never been anything but cordial to you, in fact, I remember sending you a dozen essences you had never experienced a few years ago. Boronia, costus, rose de mai, musk, etc. A while back, you got very angry at the Yahoo mods when they wouldn't let you post a group buy, but we don't let anybody post a group buy, so you weren't singled out. I suggest you get over us, your anger can't be good for your health. I truly mean that, it's pointless anger, it doesn't mean anything to the Guild.
    Anya McCoy - http://anyasgarden.com/
    Best of the Best awards - Perfume: MoonDance, StarFlower, Amberess, Light, Royal Lotus and as
    Project Leader: Outlaw Perfume and Mystery of Musk
    Basic Perfumery Course with lifetime access to the website - http://perfumeclasses.com
    America's First Natural Perfume Line 1991
    First Artisan Perfumer Voted in as member of the American Society of Perfumery 2013

  23. #83
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    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    To be fair, it wasn't Paul who raised the subject of the NPG initially here in this thread.

  24. #84

    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Quote Originally Posted by Natural_Juice View Post
    We're a group of like-minded people. Ultimate authority? Who ever implied that? We like natural aromatics, and we want to make sure we can call ourselves "natural perfumers" according to the law. Don't want to be in the Guild? Fine. It's a world of free will, we chose our own paths.
    I don't know who implied that. Anyhow, you do seem to cause a lot of commotion.. I don't know
    why, because I don't know the history of what's going on. I'm just guessing it's related to what
    I referred to - problems with the natures of organizations and human interactions. Ho well. I guess
    I'll get back to this discussion when it's relevant for me again

  25. #85
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    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Here's the O.P.....


    Quote Originally Posted by Cason View Post
    So I've read a lot of posts saying how you have to have aroma chems to create something good or usable. But at the same time reviews of such top perfumes like CREED always say that they use and smell natural and the cost so much due to the fact that they use expensive natural ingredients so where does the truth lie. Is it somewhere in the middle or is the whole thing a clever marketing campaign to charge ridiculous amounts of money for something that's not all that costly to make.
    I'm not saying it's away to do or that charging a lot of money for someone's creativity is wrong but the truth would be nice. I would rather pay for something knowing why it cost what it does.

    It may be safe to assume that opinions differ
    Last edited by lpp; 7th January 2014 at 08:09 PM.

  26. #86
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    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    It seems to me the npg does have an agenda and a chip on its collective shoulder I also sense a bit of arrogance or maybe it's like if your not part if this club then you should be. Or wish you were. guess all organizations have an agenda and an air of snobbery so I guess I will just continue in as a group of one and watch the madness from afar.

  27. #87
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    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Quote Originally Posted by Natural_Juice View Post
    I didn't for one moment think you were attacking me personally. I read it as a general insult to all natural perfumers. Hope I cleared that up.
    Clear as a bell, now perhaps you can get over it and move on.
    Justin E. Beasley

  28. #88

    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Quote Originally Posted by lpp View Post
    Discussions will sometimes get a bit intense - provided there's no bad language, name-calling (or other random rule-breaking), expressing one's views shouldn't ever be a problem!
    well said lpp,

    but when you get a phone call threatening your business because you have helped the NPG,
    i think that crosses a number of lines in my book, not only personal, but criminal.

    i have been wanting to post the audio from the call, but my attorney has advised me not to get into any details until
    the case has been resolved....

    really hard to believe that this happens in this industry,
    and even harder to believe someone was that ignorant to threaten a sicilian's business.....

  29. #89
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    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    So sorry to hear that, luigi_g - that must have been awful.

    Fortunately, we have very few really bad conflicts here as most of our members abide by the Code of Conduct & generally agree to differ, eventually

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    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Quote Originally Posted by luigi_g View Post
    well said lpp,
    but when you get a phone call threatening your business because you have helped the NPG,
    i think that crosses a number of lines in my book, not only personal, but criminal.
    i have been wanting to post the audio from the call, but my attorney has advised me not to get into any details until
    the case has been resolved....
    really hard to believe that this happens in this industry,
    and even harder to believe someone was that ignorant to threaten a sicilian's business.....
    This is confusing... So, are you saying that because you helped the Natural Perfumers Guild, in some capacity, that someone within the guild called you with threats or someone who sees themselves as an enemy of the guild threatened you? Either way I'm not sure how anyone could do anything to you for helping anyone unless that something you considered help was illegal or deemed threatening... [scratching head]

    Regardless, I feel for you, that sounds like a raw deal.
    Justin E. Beasley

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