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  1. #91
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    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Sounds ghastly indeed, J.B., - fortunately, this site does not permit the use of it's boards as a venue for personal vendettas or disputes, so we won't be hearing about it.
    I hope that the issue is resolved soon, luigi_g.
    Last edited by lpp; 7th January 2014 at 10:58 PM.

  2. #92

    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Quote Originally Posted by lpp View Post
    Sounds ghastly indeed, J.B., - fortunately, this site does not permit the use of it's boards as a venue for personal vendettas or disputes, so we won't be hearing about it.
    I hope that the issue is resolved soon, luigi_g.
    Echoed. Under no circumstances should anyone’s goodwill be responded to with threats. No circumstances at all.
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  3. #93
    Paul Kiler
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    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Luigi, sorry that whomever felt they had to issue threats did so, just immaturity manifest.

    This profession, hobby for some, does have some dark sides: our Yahoo Perfumemaking Group now conducts it's group buys privately because one or two of our members were threatened in their businesses for participating in them when they were publicly open to the whole group. It's so bad that some people feel justified for retribution and revenge when they don't agree with you.
    Paul Kiler
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  4. #94
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    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post
    Luigi, sorry that whomever felt they had to issue threats did so, just immaturity manifest.

    This profession, hobby for some, does have some dark sides: our Yahoo Perfumemaking Group now conducts it's group buys privately because one or two of our members were threatened in their businesses for participating in them when they were publicly open to the whole group. It's so bad that some people feel justified for retribution and revenge when they don't agree with you.
    What the hell? Seriously? It's like there's a freakin' perfume mafia or something! THREATENED? How bizarre...
    What kind of threats were made?

    Well, if it's any consolation, there's drama in every artistic circle I've ever seen. You can't combine a bunch of ego maniacal, opinionated, emotional, creative types together in the same place without people bumping heads occasionally, it's just part of the rub. Artist types are social and anti-social at the same time, dark periods come with the territory and in some cases mania but threats?... that's sad and maniacal. Sadly though, I've seen it happen in other circles as well, I just didn't expect perfumery be so controversial.

    C'est la vie.

    Anybody want to box?
    Justin E. Beasley

  5. #95
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    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    This is normally such a nice place

    If anyone wishes to discuss threats made against members of this Forum (or others), please continue to do so by private message.

    This Forum is NOT the place for members to engage in threatening behaviour of any sort and anyone doing so here can expect to be severely dealt with - reasonable discussions between people with differing opinions are welcome here - and frequent.

    As a consumer (as opposed to a Moderator), it has not been a remotely pleasant experience reading this thread and some may wish to reflect on that before contributing further as this is a public forum viewable by anyone with an internet connection.
    Last edited by lpp; 8th January 2014 at 01:35 PM. Reason: spelling

  6. #96
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    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Anya, while we've got your attention, did you ever complete the GCMS of various supposedly natural honeysuckle absolutes? I know it was months and months ago, and I have occasionally looked to see if you posted the results, but have not seen it. Maybe I missed it. It really would be interesting to know what you found out.

    As to natural vs. syth, I personally got into this hobby wanting to use only "natural" oils, not because of any kind of belief in the power of nature or some such, but rather because, as a beginner, I found the natural oils somehow more interesting, rare and mysterious, but at the same time "accessible" to my newby perfume brain. I was drawn to the old texts from perfumers who worked before synthetics. I also had an aversion to many main stream perfumes that to me smelled, well "chemical like", to me ( I now know this to be mostly certain aldehydes that I still can't stand, even if I do own them). I wrongly assumed that the more synthetics used the more of this phenomenon there was likely to be. But mainly it was an aesthetic choice; I liked the "idea" of using only natural ingredients, and I liked the fact I could, in my mind, relate each one to something I knew, or thought I knew. I also thought it was kind of "differentiating" from "main stream" perfumery (where I felt, too I was so clearly years or decades away from being a perfumer, it was just disheartening). I also liked the rarity and even in some ways the expense of the naturals, particularly those hard to find ones (I'll admit, that in this, there was a kind of secret snobbishness I had too). And I liked the hunt (I still do).

    Since then and now 4 years into it, I have been using ACs increasingly. I now have (slightly) more bottles of ACs than I do naturals. Like Paul I still like to use lots of naturals. Usually I compose "around" a natural or an accord of naturals, if that makes any sense, adding ACs for shading or accentuating etc. I now love looking up the relationship between the ACs and the naturals (where the AC is present in nature) and I have also come to deeply appreciate ACs that do not occur in nature but are amazing little creations in their own right (e.g. norlimbenol).

    Back to the topic: As to the OP's question on Creeds, I have had a basic GCMS done of one Creed and what I found was interesting in that it both supported some of their claims and refuted others. First the analysis showed they do indeed (at least on this one) use a high proportion of natural ingredients. Looking into it quite carefully for a long time I am also fairly convinced that the quality of these natural ingredients is indeed high and possibly some of them are unique or hard to find (in that I cannot figure out how they got such a high percentage of "X" without using some oil I never heard of -- and probably not added as an AC, since the chemicals in question seem incidental to the main accord, if you see what I mean). On the other hand the ACs that were present were such that the effect could, in my (admittedly amateur) opinion never have been achieved in the 1800s as claimed. Even if we take into account a reformulation over the years I do not see how the accords in it could possibly have been created without the ACs that appear in the GCMS, using all naturals or much older ACs. However the ACs present are not, either, the most modern (there is no hedione, older ionones are used) and thus the current formula, or something close, could have been achieved in the mid or even early 20th century.

  7. #97
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    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Very interesting. There is no doubt creed uses quality ingridients but my beef with them is the " stories" that go along with the perfumes. The gcms you speak of really peaks my curiosity I would love to take a peek. Do where is the proof I ask. Where are the documents issued by the various royal blah blah whatever's that they claim. I'm just a very cynical person and when it comes to capitalism people will tell you any wondrous tale to sell you whatever they are hawking at the moment. Creed is not the only offender.
    Take the pinaud line of aftershaves cheap as they are they have more proof on their bottle if a royal lineage than a lot of others.
    One more thing. Synthetics are here to stay and the world owes a lot to the scientist carries we don't live in a mud and grass house anymore or ride horses to work so adapt or perish. Ever here of Darwin

  8. #98
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    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Quote Originally Posted by luigi_g View Post
    great question lpp,
    i have been asking this for years.....
    so it was my understanding to put some begining safegaurds in place, one of the first steps the NPG took,
    was too release guidelines for natural isolate use, for their natural perfumers.
    but as noted here, that came under attack....
    how does that saying go over here.... damned if you do, damned if you don't?
    seems very confusing to me...
    One possible reason why those standards might not be a good idea
    What will happen when legal standards are put into place and then it just so happens that a particular farmers lavender has a poor linalool content that year? Use a different material containing high linalool? Or maybe only use lavender from a different farmer who happened to have high linalool lavender that year? Poor lavender farmer just got shafted by nature and now has a crop that can't be sold because it doesn't smell like the lavender everyone wants to buy. Now what? Farmer loses the farm due to inclement weather - or - farmer adulters lavender with linalool? Maybe?
    Justin E. Beasley

  9. #99

    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    In my experience pretty well all Essential Oils are adulterated to some extent; for a variety of reasons. To maintain a constant quality (your example, Justin, with Lavender is very apt), or to increase profit. And actually it really doesn't matter that much, unless you impose a rule which is pretty well inoperable. What is important is to maintain a consistency of quality; each batch of Essential Oil (or Aroma chemical) is the same as the previous one; so each batch of fragrance is the same as the previous one.

  10. #100

    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Quote Originally Posted by JEBeasley View Post
    One possible reason why those standards might not be a good idea
    What will happen when legal standards are put into place and then it just so happens that a particular farmers lavender has a poor linalool content that year? Use a different material containing high linalool? Or maybe only use lavender from a different farmer who happened to have high linalool lavender that year? Poor lavender farmer just got shafted by nature and now has a crop that can't be sold because it doesn't smell like the lavender everyone wants to buy. Now what? Farmer loses the farm due to inclement weather - or - farmer adulters lavender with linalool? Maybe?
    not really following your theoretical,

    those standards your refering too, specifically deal with natural isolates,
    your what if, is asking about lavendar essential oil, not connecting the dots.....

  11. #101

    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Quote Originally Posted by David Ruskin View Post
    In my experience pretty well all Essential Oils are adulterated to some extent; for a variety of reasons. To maintain a constant quality (your example, Justin, with Lavender is very apt), or to increase profit. And actually it really doesn't matter that much, unless you impose a rule which is pretty well inoperable. What is important is to maintain a consistency of quality; each batch of Essential Oil (or Aroma chemical) is the same as the previous one; so each batch of fragrance is the same as the previous one.
    if you have proof of that you should let your supplier know about it, otherwise maybe change suppliers?

  12. #102
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    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Quote Originally Posted by luigi_g View Post
    not really following your theoretical,

    those standards your refering too, specifically deal with natural isolates,
    your what if, is asking about lavendar essential oil, not connecting the dots.....
    I'm speaking directly to your question about standardizing essential oils and giving a possible scenario for why it might not be a good idea.
    The dots are: Farmer grows lavender > Lavender is harvested and it is found to be low in linalool > nobody wants the lavender because it doesn't smell like sweet and aromatic linalool lavender > farmer has to make a choice to either A. adulter with linalool AC or B. sell the farm... which would you choose to do? By regulating the standards by which the lavender EO can be sold or used you will possibly doom the farmer to possible monetary loss in a business where there is often little margin for error. If his lavender is low in linalool then your natural perfumery empire will not use it because it won't be well suited for natural perfumery and so the farmer is forced to choose between selling the farm or feeding the family by adultering an otherwise unsellable product in order to sell it.
    Justin E. Beasley

  13. #103

    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Quote Originally Posted by luigi_g View Post
    if you have proof of that you should let your supplier know about it, otherwise maybe change suppliers?
    Many years ago I visited Grasse as part of a British Society of Perfumer's tour. We were invited to several suppliers of Essential Oils, and in each case there were drums of aromachemicals that were used to extend the oils. Often the drums came from the company I was working for at the time. When we asked why they were there the answer was always the same; "We need to regulate the quality so that our oils are consistent". We even saw drums of Oils labelled for the use of one Fragrance House; IFF's quality Ylang, or else Givaudan's quality. It really doesn't matter, so long as the quality of the oil you buy, and like, is consistent. Sometimes it is easy to spot if an oil has been adulterated, sometimes it isn't. Sometimes, the supplier got a little greedy, and when this was pointed out to them they reverted to providing the quality of oil we wanted. Now I don't give a damn; I've retired!

  14. #104

    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Quote Originally Posted by JEBeasley View Post
    I'm speaking directly to your question about standardizing essential oils and giving a possible scenario for why it might not be a good idea.
    The dots are: Farmer grows lavender > Lavender is harvested and it is found to be low in linalool > nobody wants the lavender because it doesn't smell like sweet and aromatic linalool lavender > farmer has to make a choice to either A. adulter with linalool AC or B. sell the farm... which would you choose to do? By regulating the standards by which the lavender EO can be sold or used you will possibly doom the farmer to possible monetary loss in a business where there is often little margin for error. If his lavender is low in linalool then your natural perfumery empire will not use it because it won't be well suited for natural perfumery and so the farmer is forced to choose between selling the farm or feeding the family by adultering an otherwise unsellable product in order to sell it.
    apparently we are not on the same page, there was not any mention of standardizing essential oils ?

  15. #105
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    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Lol, you are correct sir! Not sure where I read into your original statement but I did and I apologize for the confusion.
    Justin E. Beasley

  16. #106

    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Quote Originally Posted by David Ruskin View Post
    Many years ago I visited Grasse as part of a British Society of Perfumer's tour. We were invited to several suppliers of Essential Oils, and in each case there were drums of aromachemicals that were used to extend the oils. Often the drums came from the company I was working for at the time. When we asked why they were there the answer was always the same; "We need to regulate the quality so that our oils are consistent". We even saw drums of Oils labelled for the use of one Fragrance House; IFF's quality Ylang, or else Givaudan's quality. It really doesn't matter, so long as the quality of the oil you buy, and like, is consistent. Sometimes it is easy to spot if an oil has been adulterated, sometimes it isn't. Sometimes, the supplier got a little greedy, and when this was pointed out to them they reverted to providing the quality of oil we wanted. Now I don't give a damn; I've retired!

    well of course, it is for those houses, and batches, like you mentioned for consistency, and their captive blends...
    like one meat company will blend a specific ratio of pork to beef for a proprietary hot dog...

    but that doesn't apply across the board for all essential oils as you first mentioned, that was a bit misleading...
    thats all, i was asking

  17. #107
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    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Quote Originally Posted by luigi_g View Post
    apparently we are not on the same page, there was not any mention of standardizing essential oils ?
    I see where I misunderstood, I read the quote by Ipp "That's actually a very interesting point - if a product is claimed to be totally natural (as still stated on the quoted website, for example) but adulteration is an 'ongoing problem', are there any safeguards in place to protect the consumer who is probably not even aware of that possibility?" and took it to mean that she was talking about EO's and their adulteration not perfumes being adulterd. I directed the answer toward you because your response/question seemed to fit in with my assumption about her original query. However, after I read you response again the context was obviously different.
    Justin E. Beasley

  18. #108

    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Quote Originally Posted by luigi_g View Post
    well of course, it is for those houses, and batches, like you mentioned for consistency, and their captive blends...
    like one meat company will blend a specific ratio of pork to beef for a proprietary hot dog...

    but that doesn't apply across the board for all essential oils as you first mentioned, that was a bit misleading...
    thats all, i was asking
    Actually the evidence is that it is, at the very least, extremely commonplace. I read Brian Lawrence and others on the composition of natural extracts regularly and the usual practice, to ensure you are getting a purely natural product, is to make the extraction especially under laboratory controlled conditions. Frequently when these are compared back to commercial samples what you find is impossibly large proportions of particular components, incorrect isomers (optically active or not) and so on.

    The only sure way to know is to do Carbon 14 testing which is rarely done, not least because as David points out, for most perfumery purposes it really doesn’t matter. Even with C14 testing you won’t reveal things like cutting rose otto with geranium essential oil (unless of course the geranium was already cut with, say, synthetic geraniol . . .).

    It’s a real minefield if you want to make a claim of naturalness. Most supplier are honest - but there are so many steps and middle men involved that even the best can’t really be sure their stuff is unadulterated, especially when distillers often ‘bouquet’ their oils before they ever reach the first wholesaler.
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  19. #109
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    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Quote JEBeasley
    'I see where I misunderstood, I read the quote by Ipp "That's actually a very interesting point - if a product is claimed to be totally natural (as still stated on the quoted website, for example) but adulteration is an 'ongoing problem', are there any safeguards in place to protect the consumer who is probably not even aware of that possibility?" and took it to mean that she was talking about EO's and their adulteration not perfumes being adulterd. I directed the answer toward you because your response/question seemed to fit in with my assumption about her original query. However, after I read you response again the context was obviously different.'
    end quote.

    You read it correctly first time, J.B.!

    It's an interesting point to me (possibly to consumers buying into a marketing concept also) - regardless of how any given product might diverge further from it's stated content by the use of other means either accidental or not!
    Last edited by lpp; 8th January 2014 at 06:01 PM.

  20. #110
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    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Quote Originally Posted by lpp View Post
    Quote JEBeasley
    'I see where I misunderstood, I read the quote by Ipp "That's actually a very interesting point - if a product is claimed to be totally natural (as still stated on the quoted website, for example) but adulteration is an 'ongoing problem', are there any safeguards in place to protect the consumer who is probably not even aware of that possibility?" and took it to mean that she was talking about EO's and their adulteration not perfumes being adulterd. I directed the answer toward you because your response/question seemed to fit in with my assumption about her original query. However, after I read you response again the context was obviously different.'
    end quote.

    You read it correctly first time, J.B.!

    It's an interesting point to me (possibly to consumers buying into a marketing concept also) - regardless of how any given product might diverge further from it's stated content by the use of other means either accidental or not!
    Oh good, I don't feel quite so slow now. I was thinking I needed more coffee and thusly I think I've severely over-caffeinated, it's going to be an interesting day!
    Justin E. Beasley

  21. #111
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    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Breathe deeply...

  22. #112
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    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Quote Originally Posted by lpp View Post
    Breathe deeply...
    Yes, breathing is good, thanks for the reminder Ipp!
    Justin E. Beasley

  23. #113

    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Bartlett View Post
    Actually the evidence is that it is, at the very least, extremely commonplace. I read Brian Lawrence and others on the composition of natural extracts regularly and the usual practice, to ensure you are getting a purely natural product, is to make the extraction especially under laboratory controlled conditions. Frequently when these are compared back to commercial samples what you find is impossibly large proportions of particular components, incorrect isomers (optically active or not) and so on.

    The only sure way to know is to do Carbon 14 testing which is rarely done, not least because as David points out, for most perfumery purposes it really doesn’t matter. Even with C14 testing you won’t reveal things like cutting rose otto with geranium essential oil (unless of course the geranium was already cut with, say, synthetic geraniol . . .).

    It’s a real minefield if you want to make a claim of naturalness. Most supplier are honest - but there are so many steps and middle men involved that even the best can’t really be sure their stuff is unadulterated, especially when distillers often ‘bouquet’ their oils before they ever reach the first wholesaler.
    chris,

    i am not saying these things do not happen...
    but to single out the naturals, essential oils, absolutes etc....i think might be a bit one sided, no?

    in all fairness, how do you know the expensive AC's people buy, or the group buys are pure, or for that matter that are are what they say they are...

    did they really buy laevo-muscone, was it pure, was it stepped on, or perhaps a blend?
    or the geosmin, how would a DIY'er know that the expensive AC was what is was said to be?

    i am not saying or suggesting this happened....., but isnt that the same as suggesting expensive naturals are not pure?

  24. #114
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    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Quote Originally Posted by Natural_Juice View Post
    . I'm come across many natural perfumers over the years that bought "from a trusted supplier", only to find out they were using a synth, the most being duped by "lily of the valley". It's an ongoing problem.
    It started here, luigi_g and it's an interesting point.

  25. #115

    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Quote Originally Posted by lpp View Post
    It started here, luigi_g and it's an interesting point.
    it is an interesting point, and there should be concerns, however the concerns should be raised across the board, yes?
    especially when it would apply to newbies....
    lily-of-the-valley, to many that is laughable, no?

    but what about 98.5% enantiomerically pure, 99% chemically pure L-L-Muscone at 760.00 per gram?
    or 98% pure agrospirol at 2,000.00 per gram ?
    or any other super expensive AC's or molecule?

    what safeguards are in place for those?

    I think that is a fair question any beginner should ask as well before spending those amounts of money, no?

    these are all questions we should be asking?

  26. #116
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    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    If you check out some recent threads, there have been questions asked by new members as it's obviously a concern to them, luigi_g, so people are aware of the need to question & discuss things.

  27. #117

    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Quote Originally Posted by lpp View Post
    If you check out some recent threads, there have been questions asked by new members as it's obviously a concern to them, luigi_g, so people are aware of the need to question & discuss things.
    ok, when i have some time i will check those out, thank you lpp

  28. #118
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    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Quote Originally Posted by luigi_g View Post
    it is an interesting point, and there should be concerns, however the concerns should be raised across the board, yes?
    especially when it would apply to newbies....
    lily-of-the-valley, to many that is laughable, no?

    but what about 98.5% enantiomerically pure, 99% chemically pure L-L-Muscone at 760.00 per gram?
    or 98% pure agrospirol at 2,000.00 per gram ?
    or any other super expensive AC's or molecule?

    what safeguards are in place for those?

    I think that is a fair question any beginner should ask as well before spending those amounts of money, no?

    these are all questions we should be asking?
    This has been a hot topic of late. As a newbie to the craft I can't tell you how frustrating it is to have no reference point for quality or purity. In another thread we discussed how to tell if an aldehyde was bad and it was determined that there are a few that are obvious but the rest you just have to know. But how is anyone to just know when there is no reference from which to know? How does anyone new to this know when anything is good, bad, diluted or adultered? They don't and this is a big hurdle for newbies to grasp when they are stocking their shelves with materials. Not only are we wasting materials in the learning process but we are also wasting money on materials that might not be well suited for the learning process AND wasting time trying to figure out what works and doesn't work if the materials are definitely bad. If the materials are 'bad' it's not easy to learn, especially when one is distance learning from the internet or from books because they either do not have access to a teacher or they don't have the money to pay for one.

    I should also add that that is probably, partly, why coming into this thread was like poking a stick into a bee-hive.
    Last edited by JEBeasley; 8th January 2014 at 07:56 PM.
    Justin E. Beasley

  29. #119
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    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    I had exactly this problem when new to buying certain gemstones some years ago, J.B., took a while to learn!

  30. #120
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    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Quote Originally Posted by lpp View Post
    I had exactly this problem when new to buying certain gemstones some years ago, J.B., took a while to learn!
    Yikes, that must have been an expensive lesson!
    Justin E. Beasley

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