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  1. #61

    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Quote Originally Posted by lpp View Post
    That's actually a very interesting point - if a product is claimed to be totally natural (as still stated on the quoted website, for example) but adulteration is an 'ongoing problem', are there any safeguards in place to protect the consumer who is probably not even aware of that possibility?

    April Aromatics About Us page
    great question lpp,

    i have been asking this for years.....

    so it was my understanding to put some begining safegaurds in place, one of the first steps the NPG took,
    was too release guidelines for natural isolate use, for their natural perfumers.
    but as noted here, that came under attack....

    how does that saying go over here.... damned if you do, damned if you don't?

    seems very confusing to me...

  2. #62

    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Thanks for replying, luigi_g - my normal state tends towards confusion!

  3. #63

    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Quote Originally Posted by luigi_g View Post
    sorry Chris,
    my post was not directed towards you, i asked JayH the question in response to his question of leaf-alcohol....that is all...

    i use aroma chems, and some naturals....so i could care less what is used in a fragrance....or who uses what....
    Apology accepted and reciprocated, I seem to have gone off on a rant . . .

    On the protection of consumers thing, I agree that there are some areas that are quite difficult such as isolates and so on, but in most cases itís pretty clear when something isnít natural and Amber Core is as synthetic as you can get.

    Whether the perfumer in this case was the fraudster or the victim is unclear but there is no doubt that anyone who buys that stuff is being deceived, and that canít be right.
    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Iím happy to quote: if you want free advice, thatís what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  4. #64

    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    The thing is, if a line is drawn with Ďnaturalsí, then really Natural Perfumers should not blend any Ďnaturalí essential oil or product with something else, as doing so will change itís chemical structure into something not found in nature. The act itself of combining seems to defy the purpose of claiming a natural product.

    If you combine two essential oils or absolutes, the constituents in these combine to become something else. Two oils may have hundreds of different molecules, and by combining them, reactions occur, react and morph, condense, etc., thus producing aromas and chemicals that can no longer be perceived as what Nature combined by itself. They did not arise together, and thus, are not Ďnaturalí.

    These new modalities of molecules are now no different than many synthetic products combined to create a scent that is not found in nature on itís own, and isnít that really the whole point of touting natural products?

  5. #65

    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Quote Originally Posted by Nymphaea View Post
    The thing is, if a line is drawn with ‘naturals’, then really Natural Perfumers should not blend any ‘natural’ essential oil or product with something else, as doing so will change it’s chemical structure into something not found in nature. The act itself of combining seems to defy the purpose of claiming a natural product.

    If you combine two essential oils or absolutes, the constituents in these combine to become something else. Two oils may have hundreds of different molecules, and by combining them, reactions occur, react and morph, condense, etc., thus producing aromas and chemicals that can no longer be perceived as what Nature combined by itself. They did not arise together, and thus, are not ‘natural’.

    These new modalities of molecules are now no different than many synthetic products combined to create a scent that is not found in nature on it’s own, and isn’t that really the whole point of touting natural products?
    I do see the logic of this argument, but you need to keep in mind that an essential oil has been produced by distillation: a process which itself has already altered the blend of molecules that were present in the leaves, flowers or whatever before that process took place. Heat causes many chemical changes and in some cases even before the heating, materials are produced that did not previously exist in the plant. See my post on Bitter Almond Oil for an extreme example of this, where the entire oil consists of chemicals that did not exist at all in the starting material.

    If you want to argue that only that which mother nature provides has therapeutic or spiritual value then your options as a purist are very limited indeed: as I said earlier other than the expressed citrus oils and copaiba balsam it’s tough to think of a single perfumery material that has not been significantly altered in processing by humans.
    Last edited by Chris Bartlett; 7th January 2014 at 08:15 AM. Reason: minor corrections
    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Iím happy to quote: if you want free advice, thatís what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  6. #66

    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Bartlett View Post
    Apology accepted and reciprocated, I seem to have gone off on a rant . . .

    On the protection of consumers thing, I agree that there are some areas that are quite difficult such as isolates and so on, but in most cases itís pretty clear when something isnít natural and Amber Core is as synthetic as you can get.

    Whether the perfumer in this case was the fraudster or the victim is unclear but there is no doubt that anyone who buys that stuff is being deceived, and that canít be right.
    Chris,
    I agree totally, and that was not an isolated case, so yes, it is not right at all...

  7. #67
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    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    I'd like to apologize if my comments were harmful. I tend to go a little commando sometimes with colorful descriptions, etc but my intention albeit harsh was/is, constructive, even if it doesn't appear to be that way. All I can say is that I'm not always great at being as diplomatic as I'd like to be. It's not my intent to do harm or confuse the issues but in general, as I see it, the matter is not and can not be clearly defined and yet there is an organization in existence claiming to be absolute authority on a subject with far too many grey areas to be defined. Anyway, hope I haven't riled too many feathers, I enjoy the time I spend here and I wouldn't want to compromise this interactivity in any way or piss off the people I enjoy interacting with.
    Justin E. Beasley

  8. #68
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    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    You shouldn't apologize for your eloquently phrased retorts nor for your opinions I thank the stars that there is someone as honest and passionate as you here to keep in line some of the info that sneaks through. Thank you again

  9. #69

    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Does the NPG claim to be the ultimate authority? From what I read here it seems it's a group of people who got together to draw the lines on what they all feel comfortable calling 'natural'. The rest is probably the result of the nature of organizations and human interactions.

  10. #70
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    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Quote Originally Posted by Cason View Post
    You shouldn't apologize for your eloquently phrased retorts nor for your opinions I thank the stars that there is someone as honest and passionate as you here to keep in line some of the info that sneaks through. Thank you again
    I rarely regret saying something or acting but I often apologize for the way I've said something and in some cases I think I didn't make myself clear as I should have in order to be most constructive or productive - then again without decomposition and destruction there is sometimes no change. Anyway, hopefully it's water under the bridge... I'll stop now... just because ;D
    Justin E. Beasley

  11. #71

    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Quote Originally Posted by Nizan View Post
    Does the NPG claim to be the ultimate authority? From what I read here it seems it's a group of people who got together to draw the lines on what they all feel comfortable calling 'natural'. The rest is probably the result of the nature of organizations and human interactions.
    It may be more prominent in the USA?

    Their website states that it is the 'only worldwide organisation dedicated to 100% natural perfumery' and offers apprenticeships, etc.

  12. #72

    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Quote Originally Posted by JEBeasley View Post
    I'd like to apologize if my comments were harmful. I tend to go a little commando sometimes with colorful descriptions, etc but my intention albeit harsh was/is, constructive, even if it doesn't appear to be that way. All I can say is that I'm not always great at being as diplomatic as I'd like to be. It's not my intent to do harm or confuse the issues but in general, as I see it, the matter is not and can not be clearly defined and yet there is an organization in existence claiming to be absolute authority on a subject with far too many grey areas to be defined. Anyway, hope I haven't riled too many feathers, I enjoy the time I spend here and I wouldn't want to compromise this interactivity in any way or piss off the people I enjoy interacting with.
    Discussions will sometimes get a bit intense - provided there's no bad language, name-calling (or other random rule-breaking), expressing one's views shouldn't ever be a problem!

  13. #73

    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Quote Originally Posted by Nizan View Post
    Does the NPG claim to be the ultimate authority?
    The NPG claims a lot of things...

    PK
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  14. #74

    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    For some reason, I didn't receive any updates about posts since Sunday, and I see there's been a lot of chat. What a topic, eh? It's been going on since at least 2005, first appearing in Luca's blog. Did I write this here before: what if we were weavers using only natural fibers and had a guild? Or weren't even in a guild, just happily weaving away with materials we like? Would faith-based, fanatical, and other disparaging terms be applied to us by those who wove/liked materials made with some synthetic fibers? I just don't get it, truly. We don't care what others are making perfumes with, we've banded together to pursue our interests, aesthetically, legislatively, and on other fronts. Just like any segment of the population, we all have our differing reasons for working with naturals. So?

    What I don't understand are insults and remarks made with contempt towards others (and I'm not just writing about forums like this, look at 'screaming match' tv panels). You don't respect/like what others make or say? You can ignore them or their products. One of my students posted a bit about her religious belief the other day on Facebook, and it had to do with the societal expectations of Confucians, not the religion: courtesy. She wrote that courtesy and gratitude are prized standards in her religion. The Bible also says a bit about this subject: Matthew 5:22 that ďif you call someone an idiot, you are in danger of being brought before the court; and if you curse someone, you are in danger of the fires of hell.Ē Calling someone an idiot isn't new, it's just the Internet lets more folks post insults from the safety of their room, not face-to-face.

    If someone has a problem with the NPG, I don't see how our organization has anything to do with you. We nurture each others art, try to protect our use of the term "natural" in the legislative vortex, and basically keep to ourselves. I'm not offended or surprised that we're drawn into this thread, as we're the only organization of our kind, we're successful, and we're the only perfumery group that has given free publications to the perfume community (pH paper, quotes paper, many other publications, including the white paper to boycott IFRA). So, we have a high profile.

    PS: we are inclusive to perfumers who use synths, despite what some keep asserting.
    PPS: Michel Roudnitska gifted me with some of his father's papers in English a few years ago, you might like to download them from my site. I still have a 48-page one to scan, and that should be up in a month or so. Yes, he used synths! Yes, we honor him, we're inclusive.
    Anya McCoy - http://anyasgarden.com/
    Best of the Best awards - Perfume: MoonDance, StarFlower, Amberess, Light, Royal Lotus and as
    Project Leader: Outlaw Perfume and Mystery of Musk
    Basic Perfumery Course with lifetime access to the website - http://perfumeclasses.com
    America's First Natural Perfume Line 1991
    First Artisan Perfumer Voted in as member of the American Society of Perfumery 2013

  15. #75

    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Quote Originally Posted by JEBeasley View Post
    I
    As for the things you see as personal insults, it's unfortunate that you can't separate self from other and choose to identify generalized statements made about an entire industry as personal attacks. This seems more like you wanting to see them as direct personal attacks in order to justify refuting my opinion in it's entirety instead of addressing any of my observations. I'm not personally attacking you, I don't know you, have anything against you or know anything about you for that matter. I was speaking generally about an industry and you internalized what I said. I'll watch my colorful metaphors in future as doing harm is definitely not my intention.
    I didn't for one moment think you were attacking me personally. I read it as a general insult to all natural perfumers. Hope I cleared that up.
    Anya McCoy - http://anyasgarden.com/
    Best of the Best awards - Perfume: MoonDance, StarFlower, Amberess, Light, Royal Lotus and as
    Project Leader: Outlaw Perfume and Mystery of Musk
    Basic Perfumery Course with lifetime access to the website - http://perfumeclasses.com
    America's First Natural Perfume Line 1991
    First Artisan Perfumer Voted in as member of the American Society of Perfumery 2013

  16. #76

    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Quote Originally Posted by Nizan View Post
    Does the NPG claim to be the ultimate authority? From what I read here it seems it's a group of people who got together to draw the lines on what they all feel comfortable calling 'natural'. The rest is probably the result of the nature of organizations and human interactions.
    We're a group of like-minded people. Ultimate authority? Who ever implied that? We like natural aromatics, and we want to make sure we can call ourselves "natural perfumers" according to the law. Don't want to be in the Guild? Fine. It's a world of free will, we chose our own paths.
    Anya McCoy - http://anyasgarden.com/
    Best of the Best awards - Perfume: MoonDance, StarFlower, Amberess, Light, Royal Lotus and as
    Project Leader: Outlaw Perfume and Mystery of Musk
    Basic Perfumery Course with lifetime access to the website - http://perfumeclasses.com
    America's First Natural Perfume Line 1991
    First Artisan Perfumer Voted in as member of the American Society of Perfumery 2013

  17. #77

    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Quote Originally Posted by Natural_Juice View Post
    we're inclusive.
    I know that many people's experience is different from this.

    PK
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  18. #78

    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Quote Originally Posted by lpp View Post
    It may be more prominent in the USA?

    Their website states that it is the 'only worldwide organisation dedicated to 100% natural perfumery' and offers apprenticeships, etc.
    We have members in France, Italy, Tahiti, Seychelles, several African countries, Brazil, Japan, Australia, England, Ireland, Germany, Norway, Canada, Nepal - and that's just off the top of my head, other countries are represented.
    Anya McCoy - http://anyasgarden.com/
    Best of the Best awards - Perfume: MoonDance, StarFlower, Amberess, Light, Royal Lotus and as
    Project Leader: Outlaw Perfume and Mystery of Musk
    Basic Perfumery Course with lifetime access to the website - http://perfumeclasses.com
    America's First Natural Perfume Line 1991
    First Artisan Perfumer Voted in as member of the American Society of Perfumery 2013

  19. #79

    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post
    I know that many people's experience is different from this.

    PK
    Well, I guess you're the expert, Paul, you always seem so interested in us. You do realize some folks are voted out for misrepresentation, violating rules, etc? The members are expected to read the Code and adhere to it, or they can leave, no hard feelings. And then there are those who realize that honoring the other members by being truthful works.

    It's worked for us all for going on eight years, and I hope it works for you, too, unless your interest in us is something I don't understand.
    Anya McCoy - http://anyasgarden.com/
    Best of the Best awards - Perfume: MoonDance, StarFlower, Amberess, Light, Royal Lotus and as
    Project Leader: Outlaw Perfume and Mystery of Musk
    Basic Perfumery Course with lifetime access to the website - http://perfumeclasses.com
    America's First Natural Perfume Line 1991
    First Artisan Perfumer Voted in as member of the American Society of Perfumery 2013

  20. #80

    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Quote Originally Posted by luigi_g View Post
    so it was my understanding to put some beginning safeguards in place, one of the first steps the NPG took,
    was too release guidelines for natural isolate use, for their natural perfumers.
    but as noted here, that came under attack....

    how does that saying go over here.... damned if you do, damned if you don't?

    seems very confusing to me...
    Nothing we can do about the attacks, Bruce, just move forward with what we believe are safeguards in place that will help protect those who call themselves natural perfumers, in the Guild.
    Anya McCoy - http://anyasgarden.com/
    Best of the Best awards - Perfume: MoonDance, StarFlower, Amberess, Light, Royal Lotus and as
    Project Leader: Outlaw Perfume and Mystery of Musk
    Basic Perfumery Course with lifetime access to the website - http://perfumeclasses.com
    America's First Natural Perfume Line 1991
    First Artisan Perfumer Voted in as member of the American Society of Perfumery 2013

  21. #81

    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    I'm not sure that a trial of the NPG is what you're after Anya...

    But saying nothing in response to statements allows subtle endorsements of those statements, for which many people disagree.
    I don't need to trot out quotes by Edmund Burke, or speak the Latin that I know.

    I just need to speak in resistance.
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  22. #82

    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post
    I'm not sure that a trial of the NPG is what you're after Anya...
    But saying nothing in response to statements allows subtle endorsements of those statements, for which many people disagree.
    I don't need to trot out quotes by Edmund Burke, or speak the Latin that I know.
    I just need to speak in resistance.
    A trial, lol? Why are you so obsessed? You were never a member, and no members, past or present, have the odd obsession you seem to have with us, following my posts, etc. You can speak in resistance all you want, but unless you are speaking from first-hand experience, not gossip, it just rolls off. I've never been anything but cordial to you, in fact, I remember sending you a dozen essences you had never experienced a few years ago. Boronia, costus, rose de mai, musk, etc. A while back, you got very angry at the Yahoo mods when they wouldn't let you post a group buy, but we don't let anybody post a group buy, so you weren't singled out. I suggest you get over us, your anger can't be good for your health. I truly mean that, it's pointless anger, it doesn't mean anything to the Guild.
    Anya McCoy - http://anyasgarden.com/
    Best of the Best awards - Perfume: MoonDance, StarFlower, Amberess, Light, Royal Lotus and as
    Project Leader: Outlaw Perfume and Mystery of Musk
    Basic Perfumery Course with lifetime access to the website - http://perfumeclasses.com
    America's First Natural Perfume Line 1991
    First Artisan Perfumer Voted in as member of the American Society of Perfumery 2013

  23. #83

    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    To be fair, it wasn't Paul who raised the subject of the NPG initially here in this thread.

  24. #84

    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Quote Originally Posted by Natural_Juice View Post
    We're a group of like-minded people. Ultimate authority? Who ever implied that? We like natural aromatics, and we want to make sure we can call ourselves "natural perfumers" according to the law. Don't want to be in the Guild? Fine. It's a world of free will, we chose our own paths.
    I don't know who implied that. Anyhow, you do seem to cause a lot of commotion.. I don't know
    why, because I don't know the history of what's going on. I'm just guessing it's related to what
    I referred to - problems with the natures of organizations and human interactions. Ho well. I guess
    I'll get back to this discussion when it's relevant for me again

  25. #85

    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Here's the O.P.....


    Quote Originally Posted by Cason View Post
    So I've read a lot of posts saying how you have to have aroma chems to create something good or usable. But at the same time reviews of such top perfumes like CREED always say that they use and smell natural and the cost so much due to the fact that they use expensive natural ingredients so where does the truth lie. Is it somewhere in the middle or is the whole thing a clever marketing campaign to charge ridiculous amounts of money for something that's not all that costly to make.
    I'm not saying it's away to do or that charging a lot of money for someone's creativity is wrong but the truth would be nice. I would rather pay for something knowing why it cost what it does.

    It may be safe to assume that opinions differ
    Last edited by lpp; 7th January 2014 at 08:09 PM.

  26. #86
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    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    It seems to me the npg does have an agenda and a chip on its collective shoulder I also sense a bit of arrogance or maybe it's like if your not part if this club then you should be. Or wish you were. guess all organizations have an agenda and an air of snobbery so I guess I will just continue in as a group of one and watch the madness from afar.

  27. #87
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    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Quote Originally Posted by Natural_Juice View Post
    I didn't for one moment think you were attacking me personally. I read it as a general insult to all natural perfumers. Hope I cleared that up.
    Clear as a bell, now perhaps you can get over it and move on.
    Justin E. Beasley

  28. #88

    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Quote Originally Posted by lpp View Post
    Discussions will sometimes get a bit intense - provided there's no bad language, name-calling (or other random rule-breaking), expressing one's views shouldn't ever be a problem!
    well said lpp,

    but when you get a phone call threatening your business because you have helped the NPG,
    i think that crosses a number of lines in my book, not only personal, but criminal.

    i have been wanting to post the audio from the call, but my attorney has advised me not to get into any details until
    the case has been resolved....

    really hard to believe that this happens in this industry,
    and even harder to believe someone was that ignorant to threaten a sicilian's business.....

  29. #89

    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    So sorry to hear that, luigi_g - that must have been awful.

    Fortunately, we have very few really bad conflicts here as most of our members abide by the Code of Conduct & generally agree to differ, eventually

  30. #90
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    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Quote Originally Posted by luigi_g View Post
    well said lpp,
    but when you get a phone call threatening your business because you have helped the NPG,
    i think that crosses a number of lines in my book, not only personal, but criminal.
    i have been wanting to post the audio from the call, but my attorney has advised me not to get into any details until
    the case has been resolved....
    really hard to believe that this happens in this industry,
    and even harder to believe someone was that ignorant to threaten a sicilian's business.....
    This is confusing... So, are you saying that because you helped the Natural Perfumers Guild, in some capacity, that someone within the guild called you with threats or someone who sees themselves as an enemy of the guild threatened you? Either way I'm not sure how anyone could do anything to you for helping anyone unless that something you considered help was illegal or deemed threatening... [scratching head]

    Regardless, I feel for you, that sounds like a raw deal.
    Justin E. Beasley

  31. #91

    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Sounds ghastly indeed, J.B., - fortunately, this site does not permit the use of it's boards as a venue for personal vendettas or disputes, so we won't be hearing about it.
    I hope that the issue is resolved soon, luigi_g.
    Last edited by lpp; 7th January 2014 at 10:58 PM.

  32. #92

    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Quote Originally Posted by lpp View Post
    Sounds ghastly indeed, J.B., - fortunately, this site does not permit the use of it's boards as a venue for personal vendettas or disputes, so we won't be hearing about it.
    I hope that the issue is resolved soon, luigi_g.
    Echoed. Under no circumstances should anyoneís goodwill be responded to with threats. No circumstances at all.
    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Iím happy to quote: if you want free advice, thatís what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  33. #93

    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Luigi, sorry that whomever felt they had to issue threats did so, just immaturity manifest.

    This profession, hobby for some, does have some dark sides: our Yahoo Perfumemaking Group now conducts it's group buys privately because one or two of our members were threatened in their businesses for participating in them when they were publicly open to the whole group. It's so bad that some people feel justified for retribution and revenge when they don't agree with you.
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  34. #94
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    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post
    Luigi, sorry that whomever felt they had to issue threats did so, just immaturity manifest.

    This profession, hobby for some, does have some dark sides: our Yahoo Perfumemaking Group now conducts it's group buys privately because one or two of our members were threatened in their businesses for participating in them when they were publicly open to the whole group. It's so bad that some people feel justified for retribution and revenge when they don't agree with you.
    What the hell? Seriously? It's like there's a freakin' perfume mafia or something! THREATENED? How bizarre...
    What kind of threats were made?

    Well, if it's any consolation, there's drama in every artistic circle I've ever seen. You can't combine a bunch of ego maniacal, opinionated, emotional, creative types together in the same place without people bumping heads occasionally, it's just part of the rub. Artist types are social and anti-social at the same time, dark periods come with the territory and in some cases mania but threats?... that's sad and maniacal. Sadly though, I've seen it happen in other circles as well, I just didn't expect perfumery be so controversial.

    C'est la vie.

    Anybody want to box?
    Justin E. Beasley

  35. #95

    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    This is normally such a nice place

    If anyone wishes to discuss threats made against members of this Forum (or others), please continue to do so by private message.

    This Forum is NOT the place for members to engage in threatening behaviour of any sort and anyone doing so here can expect to be severely dealt with - reasonable discussions between people with differing opinions are welcome here - and frequent.

    As a consumer (as opposed to a Moderator), it has not been a remotely pleasant experience reading this thread and some may wish to reflect on that before contributing further as this is a public forum viewable by anyone with an internet connection.
    Last edited by lpp; 8th January 2014 at 01:35 PM. Reason: spelling

  36. #96
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    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Anya, while we've got your attention, did you ever complete the GCMS of various supposedly natural honeysuckle absolutes? I know it was months and months ago, and I have occasionally looked to see if you posted the results, but have not seen it. Maybe I missed it. It really would be interesting to know what you found out.

    As to natural vs. syth, I personally got into this hobby wanting to use only "natural" oils, not because of any kind of belief in the power of nature or some such, but rather because, as a beginner, I found the natural oils somehow more interesting, rare and mysterious, but at the same time "accessible" to my newby perfume brain. I was drawn to the old texts from perfumers who worked before synthetics. I also had an aversion to many main stream perfumes that to me smelled, well "chemical like", to me ( I now know this to be mostly certain aldehydes that I still can't stand, even if I do own them). I wrongly assumed that the more synthetics used the more of this phenomenon there was likely to be. But mainly it was an aesthetic choice; I liked the "idea" of using only natural ingredients, and I liked the fact I could, in my mind, relate each one to something I knew, or thought I knew. I also thought it was kind of "differentiating" from "main stream" perfumery (where I felt, too I was so clearly years or decades away from being a perfumer, it was just disheartening). I also liked the rarity and even in some ways the expense of the naturals, particularly those hard to find ones (I'll admit, that in this, there was a kind of secret snobbishness I had too). And I liked the hunt (I still do).

    Since then and now 4 years into it, I have been using ACs increasingly. I now have (slightly) more bottles of ACs than I do naturals. Like Paul I still like to use lots of naturals. Usually I compose "around" a natural or an accord of naturals, if that makes any sense, adding ACs for shading or accentuating etc. I now love looking up the relationship between the ACs and the naturals (where the AC is present in nature) and I have also come to deeply appreciate ACs that do not occur in nature but are amazing little creations in their own right (e.g. norlimbenol).

    Back to the topic: As to the OP's question on Creeds, I have had a basic GCMS done of one Creed and what I found was interesting in that it both supported some of their claims and refuted others. First the analysis showed they do indeed (at least on this one) use a high proportion of natural ingredients. Looking into it quite carefully for a long time I am also fairly convinced that the quality of these natural ingredients is indeed high and possibly some of them are unique or hard to find (in that I cannot figure out how they got such a high percentage of "X" without using some oil I never heard of -- and probably not added as an AC, since the chemicals in question seem incidental to the main accord, if you see what I mean). On the other hand the ACs that were present were such that the effect could, in my (admittedly amateur) opinion never have been achieved in the 1800s as claimed. Even if we take into account a reformulation over the years I do not see how the accords in it could possibly have been created without the ACs that appear in the GCMS, using all naturals or much older ACs. However the ACs present are not, either, the most modern (there is no hedione, older ionones are used) and thus the current formula, or something close, could have been achieved in the mid or even early 20th century.

  37. #97
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    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Very interesting. There is no doubt creed uses quality ingridients but my beef with them is the " stories" that go along with the perfumes. The gcms you speak of really peaks my curiosity I would love to take a peek. Do where is the proof I ask. Where are the documents issued by the various royal blah blah whatever's that they claim. I'm just a very cynical person and when it comes to capitalism people will tell you any wondrous tale to sell you whatever they are hawking at the moment. Creed is not the only offender.
    Take the pinaud line of aftershaves cheap as they are they have more proof on their bottle if a royal lineage than a lot of others.
    One more thing. Synthetics are here to stay and the world owes a lot to the scientist carries we don't live in a mud and grass house anymore or ride horses to work so adapt or perish. Ever here of Darwin

  38. #98
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    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Quote Originally Posted by luigi_g View Post
    great question lpp,
    i have been asking this for years.....
    so it was my understanding to put some begining safegaurds in place, one of the first steps the NPG took,
    was too release guidelines for natural isolate use, for their natural perfumers.
    but as noted here, that came under attack....
    how does that saying go over here.... damned if you do, damned if you don't?
    seems very confusing to me...
    One possible reason why those standards might not be a good idea
    What will happen when legal standards are put into place and then it just so happens that a particular farmers lavender has a poor linalool content that year? Use a different material containing high linalool? Or maybe only use lavender from a different farmer who happened to have high linalool lavender that year? Poor lavender farmer just got shafted by nature and now has a crop that can't be sold because it doesn't smell like the lavender everyone wants to buy. Now what? Farmer loses the farm due to inclement weather - or - farmer adulters lavender with linalool? Maybe?
    Justin E. Beasley

  39. #99

    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    In my experience pretty well all Essential Oils are adulterated to some extent; for a variety of reasons. To maintain a constant quality (your example, Justin, with Lavender is very apt), or to increase profit. And actually it really doesn't matter that much, unless you impose a rule which is pretty well inoperable. What is important is to maintain a consistency of quality; each batch of Essential Oil (or Aroma chemical) is the same as the previous one; so each batch of fragrance is the same as the previous one.

  40. #100

    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Quote Originally Posted by JEBeasley View Post
    One possible reason why those standards might not be a good idea
    What will happen when legal standards are put into place and then it just so happens that a particular farmers lavender has a poor linalool content that year? Use a different material containing high linalool? Or maybe only use lavender from a different farmer who happened to have high linalool lavender that year? Poor lavender farmer just got shafted by nature and now has a crop that can't be sold because it doesn't smell like the lavender everyone wants to buy. Now what? Farmer loses the farm due to inclement weather - or - farmer adulters lavender with linalool? Maybe?
    not really following your theoretical,

    those standards your refering too, specifically deal with natural isolates,
    your what if, is asking about lavendar essential oil, not connecting the dots.....

  41. #101

    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Quote Originally Posted by David Ruskin View Post
    In my experience pretty well all Essential Oils are adulterated to some extent; for a variety of reasons. To maintain a constant quality (your example, Justin, with Lavender is very apt), or to increase profit. And actually it really doesn't matter that much, unless you impose a rule which is pretty well inoperable. What is important is to maintain a consistency of quality; each batch of Essential Oil (or Aroma chemical) is the same as the previous one; so each batch of fragrance is the same as the previous one.
    if you have proof of that you should let your supplier know about it, otherwise maybe change suppliers?

  42. #102
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    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Quote Originally Posted by luigi_g View Post
    not really following your theoretical,

    those standards your refering too, specifically deal with natural isolates,
    your what if, is asking about lavendar essential oil, not connecting the dots.....
    I'm speaking directly to your question about standardizing essential oils and giving a possible scenario for why it might not be a good idea.
    The dots are: Farmer grows lavender > Lavender is harvested and it is found to be low in linalool > nobody wants the lavender because it doesn't smell like sweet and aromatic linalool lavender > farmer has to make a choice to either A. adulter with linalool AC or B. sell the farm... which would you choose to do? By regulating the standards by which the lavender EO can be sold or used you will possibly doom the farmer to possible monetary loss in a business where there is often little margin for error. If his lavender is low in linalool then your natural perfumery empire will not use it because it won't be well suited for natural perfumery and so the farmer is forced to choose between selling the farm or feeding the family by adultering an otherwise unsellable product in order to sell it.
    Justin E. Beasley

  43. #103

    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Quote Originally Posted by luigi_g View Post
    if you have proof of that you should let your supplier know about it, otherwise maybe change suppliers?
    Many years ago I visited Grasse as part of a British Society of Perfumer's tour. We were invited to several suppliers of Essential Oils, and in each case there were drums of aromachemicals that were used to extend the oils. Often the drums came from the company I was working for at the time. When we asked why they were there the answer was always the same; "We need to regulate the quality so that our oils are consistent". We even saw drums of Oils labelled for the use of one Fragrance House; IFF's quality Ylang, or else Givaudan's quality. It really doesn't matter, so long as the quality of the oil you buy, and like, is consistent. Sometimes it is easy to spot if an oil has been adulterated, sometimes it isn't. Sometimes, the supplier got a little greedy, and when this was pointed out to them they reverted to providing the quality of oil we wanted. Now I don't give a damn; I've retired!

  44. #104

    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Quote Originally Posted by JEBeasley View Post
    I'm speaking directly to your question about standardizing essential oils and giving a possible scenario for why it might not be a good idea.
    The dots are: Farmer grows lavender > Lavender is harvested and it is found to be low in linalool > nobody wants the lavender because it doesn't smell like sweet and aromatic linalool lavender > farmer has to make a choice to either A. adulter with linalool AC or B. sell the farm... which would you choose to do? By regulating the standards by which the lavender EO can be sold or used you will possibly doom the farmer to possible monetary loss in a business where there is often little margin for error. If his lavender is low in linalool then your natural perfumery empire will not use it because it won't be well suited for natural perfumery and so the farmer is forced to choose between selling the farm or feeding the family by adultering an otherwise unsellable product in order to sell it.
    apparently we are not on the same page, there was not any mention of standardizing essential oils ?

  45. #105
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    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Lol, you are correct sir! Not sure where I read into your original statement but I did and I apologize for the confusion.
    Justin E. Beasley

  46. #106

    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Quote Originally Posted by David Ruskin View Post
    Many years ago I visited Grasse as part of a British Society of Perfumer's tour. We were invited to several suppliers of Essential Oils, and in each case there were drums of aromachemicals that were used to extend the oils. Often the drums came from the company I was working for at the time. When we asked why they were there the answer was always the same; "We need to regulate the quality so that our oils are consistent". We even saw drums of Oils labelled for the use of one Fragrance House; IFF's quality Ylang, or else Givaudan's quality. It really doesn't matter, so long as the quality of the oil you buy, and like, is consistent. Sometimes it is easy to spot if an oil has been adulterated, sometimes it isn't. Sometimes, the supplier got a little greedy, and when this was pointed out to them they reverted to providing the quality of oil we wanted. Now I don't give a damn; I've retired!

    well of course, it is for those houses, and batches, like you mentioned for consistency, and their captive blends...
    like one meat company will blend a specific ratio of pork to beef for a proprietary hot dog...

    but that doesn't apply across the board for all essential oils as you first mentioned, that was a bit misleading...
    thats all, i was asking

  47. #107
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    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Quote Originally Posted by luigi_g View Post
    apparently we are not on the same page, there was not any mention of standardizing essential oils ?
    I see where I misunderstood, I read the quote by Ipp "That's actually a very interesting point - if a product is claimed to be totally natural (as still stated on the quoted website, for example) but adulteration is an 'ongoing problem', are there any safeguards in place to protect the consumer who is probably not even aware of that possibility?" and took it to mean that she was talking about EO's and their adulteration not perfumes being adulterd. I directed the answer toward you because your response/question seemed to fit in with my assumption about her original query. However, after I read you response again the context was obviously different.
    Justin E. Beasley

  48. #108

    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Quote Originally Posted by luigi_g View Post
    well of course, it is for those houses, and batches, like you mentioned for consistency, and their captive blends...
    like one meat company will blend a specific ratio of pork to beef for a proprietary hot dog...

    but that doesn't apply across the board for all essential oils as you first mentioned, that was a bit misleading...
    thats all, i was asking
    Actually the evidence is that it is, at the very least, extremely commonplace. I read Brian Lawrence and others on the composition of natural extracts regularly and the usual practice, to ensure you are getting a purely natural product, is to make the extraction especially under laboratory controlled conditions. Frequently when these are compared back to commercial samples what you find is impossibly large proportions of particular components, incorrect isomers (optically active or not) and so on.

    The only sure way to know is to do Carbon 14 testing which is rarely done, not least because as David points out, for most perfumery purposes it really doesnít matter. Even with C14 testing you wonít reveal things like cutting rose otto with geranium essential oil (unless of course the geranium was already cut with, say, synthetic geraniol . . .).

    Itís a real minefield if you want to make a claim of naturalness. Most supplier are honest - but there are so many steps and middle men involved that even the best canít really be sure their stuff is unadulterated, especially when distillers often Ďbouquetí their oils before they ever reach the first wholesaler.
    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Iím happy to quote: if you want free advice, thatís what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  49. #109

    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Quote JEBeasley
    'I see where I misunderstood, I read the quote by Ipp "That's actually a very interesting point - if a product is claimed to be totally natural (as still stated on the quoted website, for example) but adulteration is an 'ongoing problem', are there any safeguards in place to protect the consumer who is probably not even aware of that possibility?" and took it to mean that she was talking about EO's and their adulteration not perfumes being adulterd. I directed the answer toward you because your response/question seemed to fit in with my assumption about her original query. However, after I read you response again the context was obviously different.'
    end quote.

    You read it correctly first time, J.B.!

    It's an interesting point to me (possibly to consumers buying into a marketing concept also) - regardless of how any given product might diverge further from it's stated content by the use of other means either accidental or not!
    Last edited by lpp; 8th January 2014 at 06:01 PM.

  50. #110
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    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Quote Originally Posted by lpp View Post
    Quote JEBeasley
    'I see where I misunderstood, I read the quote by Ipp "That's actually a very interesting point - if a product is claimed to be totally natural (as still stated on the quoted website, for example) but adulteration is an 'ongoing problem', are there any safeguards in place to protect the consumer who is probably not even aware of that possibility?" and took it to mean that she was talking about EO's and their adulteration not perfumes being adulterd. I directed the answer toward you because your response/question seemed to fit in with my assumption about her original query. However, after I read you response again the context was obviously different.'
    end quote.

    You read it correctly first time, J.B.!

    It's an interesting point to me (possibly to consumers buying into a marketing concept also) - regardless of how any given product might diverge further from it's stated content by the use of other means either accidental or not!
    Oh good, I don't feel quite so slow now. I was thinking I needed more coffee and thusly I think I've severely over-caffeinated, it's going to be an interesting day!
    Justin E. Beasley

  51. #111

    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Breathe deeply...

  52. #112
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    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Quote Originally Posted by lpp View Post
    Breathe deeply...
    Yes, breathing is good, thanks for the reminder Ipp!
    Justin E. Beasley

  53. #113

    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Bartlett View Post
    Actually the evidence is that it is, at the very least, extremely commonplace. I read Brian Lawrence and others on the composition of natural extracts regularly and the usual practice, to ensure you are getting a purely natural product, is to make the extraction especially under laboratory controlled conditions. Frequently when these are compared back to commercial samples what you find is impossibly large proportions of particular components, incorrect isomers (optically active or not) and so on.

    The only sure way to know is to do Carbon 14 testing which is rarely done, not least because as David points out, for most perfumery purposes it really doesnít matter. Even with C14 testing you wonít reveal things like cutting rose otto with geranium essential oil (unless of course the geranium was already cut with, say, synthetic geraniol . . .).

    Itís a real minefield if you want to make a claim of naturalness. Most supplier are honest - but there are so many steps and middle men involved that even the best canít really be sure their stuff is unadulterated, especially when distillers often Ďbouquetí their oils before they ever reach the first wholesaler.
    chris,

    i am not saying these things do not happen...
    but to single out the naturals, essential oils, absolutes etc....i think might be a bit one sided, no?

    in all fairness, how do you know the expensive AC's people buy, or the group buys are pure, or for that matter that are are what they say they are...

    did they really buy laevo-muscone, was it pure, was it stepped on, or perhaps a blend?
    or the geosmin, how would a DIY'er know that the expensive AC was what is was said to be?

    i am not saying or suggesting this happened....., but isnt that the same as suggesting expensive naturals are not pure?

  54. #114

    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Quote Originally Posted by Natural_Juice View Post
    . I'm come across many natural perfumers over the years that bought "from a trusted supplier", only to find out they were using a synth, the most being duped by "lily of the valley". It's an ongoing problem.
    It started here, luigi_g and it's an interesting point.

  55. #115

    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Quote Originally Posted by lpp View Post
    It started here, luigi_g and it's an interesting point.
    it is an interesting point, and there should be concerns, however the concerns should be raised across the board, yes?
    especially when it would apply to newbies....
    lily-of-the-valley, to many that is laughable, no?

    but what about 98.5% enantiomerically pure, 99% chemically pure L-L-Muscone at 760.00 per gram?
    or 98% pure agrospirol at 2,000.00 per gram ?
    or any other super expensive AC's or molecule?

    what safeguards are in place for those?

    I think that is a fair question any beginner should ask as well before spending those amounts of money, no?

    these are all questions we should be asking?

  56. #116

    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    If you check out some recent threads, there have been questions asked by new members as it's obviously a concern to them, luigi_g, so people are aware of the need to question & discuss things.

  57. #117

    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Quote Originally Posted by lpp View Post
    If you check out some recent threads, there have been questions asked by new members as it's obviously a concern to them, luigi_g, so people are aware of the need to question & discuss things.
    ok, when i have some time i will check those out, thank you lpp

  58. #118
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    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Quote Originally Posted by luigi_g View Post
    it is an interesting point, and there should be concerns, however the concerns should be raised across the board, yes?
    especially when it would apply to newbies....
    lily-of-the-valley, to many that is laughable, no?

    but what about 98.5% enantiomerically pure, 99% chemically pure L-L-Muscone at 760.00 per gram?
    or 98% pure agrospirol at 2,000.00 per gram ?
    or any other super expensive AC's or molecule?

    what safeguards are in place for those?

    I think that is a fair question any beginner should ask as well before spending those amounts of money, no?

    these are all questions we should be asking?
    This has been a hot topic of late. As a newbie to the craft I can't tell you how frustrating it is to have no reference point for quality or purity. In another thread we discussed how to tell if an aldehyde was bad and it was determined that there are a few that are obvious but the rest you just have to know. But how is anyone to just know when there is no reference from which to know? How does anyone new to this know when anything is good, bad, diluted or adultered? They don't and this is a big hurdle for newbies to grasp when they are stocking their shelves with materials. Not only are we wasting materials in the learning process but we are also wasting money on materials that might not be well suited for the learning process AND wasting time trying to figure out what works and doesn't work if the materials are definitely bad. If the materials are 'bad' it's not easy to learn, especially when one is distance learning from the internet or from books because they either do not have access to a teacher or they don't have the money to pay for one.

    I should also add that that is probably, partly, why coming into this thread was like poking a stick into a bee-hive.
    Last edited by JEBeasley; 8th January 2014 at 07:56 PM.
    Justin E. Beasley

  59. #119

    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    I had exactly this problem when new to buying certain gemstones some years ago, J.B., took a while to learn!

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    Default Re: Natural vs synthetic

    Quote Originally Posted by lpp View Post
    I had exactly this problem when new to buying certain gemstones some years ago, J.B., took a while to learn!
    Yikes, that must have been an expensive lesson!
    Justin E. Beasley

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