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  1. #1

    Default Facial Oil fragrance, rose otto

    I am currently trying to set up a new business with my own organic/natural skincare company. Believe it or not one of the greatest difficulties I've encountered so far with formulating is getting the fragrance right of my organic facial oil. After much research I came to the conclusion that an essential oil maximum of between 1 to 2% should be used. I wanted to use organic rose otto as my main heart to base note however I need to be careful as rose otto contains methyl eugenol which is a sensitiser and has causes restrictions in regards to safety. Does anyone have any advice on this and suggested percentage of rose otto in a facial oil?

    I've tried 10 batches so far and every time the fragrance is far to weak.

    Many thanks

  2. #2

    Default Facial Oil fragrance, rose otto

    I'm currently working on a fragrance for my facial oil (new business venture - organic skincare company). I've created a beautiful facial oil but having trouble creating a nice fragrance using organic essential oils. I'm using organic rose otto oil but unsure of the percentage to use. Does anyone have advice on this?

    Many thanks,
    Last edited by codydan85; 1st January 2014 at 02:28 PM.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Facial Oil fragrance, rose otto

    Hi!
    We'll move your posts to the DIY section in case anyone there can give you some pointers.

    Please stick to one thread per topic as members tend to browse the site and duplicate threads lead to confusion!

    It might be an idea to hire a consultant if you are not able to do the job properly yourself.
    Last edited by lpp; 31st December 2013 at 05:57 PM.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Facial Oil fragrance, rose otto

    My ten minutes of research for you comes to these conclusions:

    The IFRA limit for Methyl Eugenol in a fragrance cream is 0.004%

    Rose Otto / EO comes in variably in the amount of between 1.4 and about 2.0% according to some quickly obtained GC tests. Yours may be different, do you HAVE a GC for what you are using?

    Using these numbers, of Rose otto containing 2% Methyl Eugenol, and your stated usage amount of 1% of fragrance used in your cream, that means this:

    2 x 0.01 (1%) = .02% Methyl Eugenol in your product

    So according to IFRA, then you'd have to use this much Rose Otto to meet their specs:

    2 x 0.002 = 0.004%

    Sounds to me like you'll need more rose built without the Methyl eugenol (and probably Eugenol too) (But there may even be more, as I didn't look any further than Methyl Eugenol in this free consultation) to satisfy your two requirements of scent intensity, and IFRA compliance.

    Paul Kiler

    Happy New Year!
    Last edited by pkiler; 31st December 2013 at 07:51 PM.
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  5. #5

    Default Re: Facial Oil fragrance, rose otto

    Happy New Year, Paul!

  6. #6

    Default Re: Facial Oil fragrance, rose otto

    Quote Originally Posted by codydan85 View Post
    I'm currently working on a fragrance for my facial oil (new business venture - organic skincare company). I've created a beautiful facial oil but having trouble creating a nice fragrance using organic essential oils. I'm using organic rose otto oil but unsure of the percentage to use. Does anyone have advice on this?

    Many thanks,

    Cody
    This type of thing has been an interest of mine. Aside from the Ifra issue, another issue with rose is cost. Rose is a great oil for the skin; of theraputic value itself. But there are ways to reduce the burden on the rose oil. I know a very reputable natural facial products company that quit using rose, but I don't think that is necessary either. I know what I would do, but I am hesitant to consult for free at this time. Rose plays a function, but not the only function, and that fact allows you to diversify while improving your product at the same time. Depends on your beliefs and goals.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Facial Oil fragrance, rose otto

    Good Scents list the the typical methyl isoeugenol content in Rose oil as 1.71% but they don't list methyl eugenol.

    http://www.thegoodscentscompany.com/gca/gc1024951.html

    They list the typical methyl eugenol content of Rose centifolia absolute as <0.5% .

    http://www.thegoodscentscompany.com/gca/gc1067131.html

    The IFRA list the indicative maximum levels of methyl eugenol in Rose oil as <3.5% and for Rose absolute, <1.5%. You'd have to use those figures unless, as the IFRA state:

    "This Annex gives indicative maximum levels of the limited substances in different fragrance materials (e.g. in essential oils). These indicative levels should be taken into account when determining the compliance of a fragrance compound under its conditions of use. However, if reliable analysis has shown that the level of the limited substance in a specific fragrance material is not the same as the indicative level given in this Annex, then the analyzed level can be used instead of the indicative level."

    http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct...50165853,d.Yms

    If you used the IFRA indicative maximum figures, then you could only use 0.11% Rose otto, or 0.26% Rose absolute in a fragrancing cream. If you want to use more than that, then it would be necessary to find a supplier who has reliable test results showing that their Rose otto/absolute contains less methyl eugenol than the IFRA maximum figures.

    The IFRA only permit 0.004% methyl eugenol in fragrancing creams, for other leave on products it's 0.0004%; so it would probably be better to sell it as a fragrancing cream. I hope that this helps.

    Paul, could you kindly confirm to codydan whether or not everything that I've written is correct please, as you're more up to date with all of the IFRA changes than me? Thanks.

    Pears
    Last edited by Pears; 1st January 2014 at 04:16 AM.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Facial Oil fragrance, rose otto

    Maybe you could also use naturals that were traditionally used to adulterate rose products..

  9. #9

    Default Re: Facial Oil fragrance, rose otto

    Failing that (considering IFRA), a bit of synthetic might come in useful.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Facial Oil fragrance, rose otto

    Quote Originally Posted by Nizan View Post
    Maybe you could also use naturals that were traditionally used to adulterate rose products..
    I'm pretty sure that would defeat the OP's desire to keep their fragrance "natural and organic" as all of those adulterants are aroma chems.
    Justin E. Beasley

  11. #11

    Default Re: Facial Oil fragrance, rose otto

    Rose geranium (Pelargonium graveolens, I think) is used a lot 'though I've no idea how that would be calculated for compliance purposes!
    It's also very inexpensive.

    See
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelargonium_graveolens
    Last edited by lpp; 1st January 2014 at 09:03 AM.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Facial Oil fragrance, rose otto

    Thank you. Sorry I only joined the forum yesterday and was not sure where to place my Thread.

    Many thanks

  13. #13

    Default Re: Facial Oil fragrance, rose otto

    Hi Paul,

    Thank you so much for your detailed response and investigating this for me.

    I do not have a GC for the Organic Rose Otto I'm using - I will have to email my supplier and see if they know.

    I've looked for an Organic Rose Otto that contains little to no Methyl Eugenol but they extremely rare to source and the price is astronomical.

    I will have to what my supplier states the % of Methyl Eugenol is and hope that it's low. Most Organic Rose Otto's I've researched have 1.5%

    Once I've perfected the fragrance of the rose I will have to see how the Cosmetic Products Safety Report comes out as living in the UK under the EU Cosmetics Regulations this Safety report must be completed before I sell it to the public.

    My Facial Oil is a beautiful formulation and I will not rest until I've perfected the rose fragrance to go with the luxurious formulation.

    Thank you for your assistance.

    Happy New Year!

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post
    My ten minutes of research for you comes to these conclusions:

    The IFRA limit for Methyl Eugenol in a fragrance cream is 0.004%

    Rose Otto / EO comes in variably in the amount of between 1.4 and about 2.0% according to some quickly obtained GC tests. Yours may be different, do you HAVE a GC for what you are using?

    Using these numbers, of Rose otto containing 2% Methyl Eugenol, and your stated usage amount of 1% of fragrance used in your cream, that means this:

    2 x 0.01 (1%) = .02% Methyl Eugenol in your product

    So according to IFRA, then you'd have to use this much Rose Otto to meet their specs:

    2 x 0.002 = 0.004%

    Sounds to me like you'll need more rose built without the Methyl eugenol (and probably Eugenol too) (But there may even be more, as I didn't look any further than Methyl Eugenol in this free consultation) to satisfy your two requirements of scent intensity, and IFRA compliance.

    Paul Kiler

    Happy New Year!

  14. #14

    Default Re: Facial Oil fragrance, rose otto

    Quote Originally Posted by lpp View Post
    Rose geranium (Pelargonium graveolens, I think) is used a lot 'though I've no idea how that would be calculated for compliance purposes!
    It's also very inexpensive.

    See
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelargonium_graveolens
    I was thinking of this, too, but geranium can easily take over and give a rose scent a, well, geranium appeal.
    I experience this in the facial cleanser of my favorite brand, The Organic Pharmacy. It contains more rose damascena, according to the ingredient list, but actually smells of perlagonium. Which is quite disappointing when you're after some rosy feel.
    I hope you can find a satisfying solution, codydan! Luckily you don't need to be IFRA compliant.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Facial Oil fragrance, rose otto

    Quote Originally Posted by Graphite View Post
    I was thinking of this, too, but geranium can easily take over and give a rose scent a, well, geranium appeal.
    I experience this in the facial cleanser of my favorite brand, The Organic Pharmacy. It contains more rose damascena, according to the ingredient list, but actually smells of perlagonium. Which is quite disappointing when you're after some rosy feel.
    I hope you can find a satisfying solution, codydan! Luckily you don't need to be IFRA compliant.
    Please excuse the ignorance, but why does the O.P. not need to be compliant?

  16. #16

    Default Re: Facial Oil fragrance, rose otto

    As far as I know there is only need to follow the EU directive. Assuming codydan is not a member of IFRA.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Facial Oil fragrance, rose otto

    There is some useful info. in this recent thread
    http://www.basenotes.net/huddlerarchive/381879

  18. #18

    Default Re: Facial Oil fragrance, rose otto

    Hello,

    Thank you for the response. I am very familiar with The Organic Pharmacy and their Rose facial wash. I see what you mean about it containing geranium and it would be nice but I wanted it to be very rosy. I might use Sandalwood as a base note to prolong the rosy smell. I guess it's all about trial and error.

    We'll have to see whether it passes the Safety Assessments to meet the EU regulations.

    Many kind regards,

    Cody Dan

    Quote Originally Posted by Graphite View Post
    I was thinking of this, too, but geranium can easily take over and give a rose scent a, well, geranium appeal.
    I experience this in the facial cleanser of my favorite brand, The Organic Pharmacy. It contains more rose damascena, according to the ingredient list, but actually smells of perlagonium. Which is quite disappointing when you're after some rosy feel.
    I hope you can find a satisfying solution, codydan! Luckily you don't need to be IFRA compliant.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Facial Oil fragrance, rose otto

    I was under the impression that a non-compliant product would not be given certification, but maybe someone else could comment please.

    http://www.ctpa.org.uk/content.aspx?pageid=303
    https://www.cosmeticseurope.eu/publi...iew=item&id=85

  20. #20

    Default Re: Facial Oil fragrance, rose otto

    Quote Originally Posted by JEBeasley View Post
    I'm pretty sure that would defeat the OP's desire to keep their fragrance "natural and organic" as all of those adulterants are aroma chems.
    I meant naturals that were used to adulterate rose. I read somewhere that palmarosa was used..

  21. #21

  22. #22

    Default Re: Facial Oil fragrance, rose otto

    Quote Originally Posted by Graphite View Post
    As far as I know there is only need to follow the EU directive. Assuming codydan is not a member of IFRA.
    I remember reading that following the IFRA standards was voluntary. To quote the IFRA:

    "Together with the industry’s scientific centre, RIFM (the Research Institute for Fragrance Materials), the IFRA team endeavors to make sure that usage standards for fragrance materials are put into practice according to the available scientific recommendation, and that member companies comply with those standards. This voluntary approach enables the IFRA standards to be adopted very rapidly by fragrance houses worldwide and by the industry as a whole."

    http://www.ifraorg.org/en/about-ifra-text#.UsQmo20qvKc

    From what the IFRA have stated, opting out of their standards may only be a realistic option for small businesses, who sell directly to the end user. Larger companies may have much more demanding clients in the form of resellers/retailers etc. Perhaps following the IFRA standards protects companies from any adverse claims made by end users also. If you do opt out of using the IFRA standards, it would be a good idea to avoid using any highly sensitizing ingredients, to limit the possibility of such claims being made. The chances of someone having a reaction to a 1% concentration of Rose otto seems very remote, so it would probably be more of a case of being careful of what you blend it with.
    Last edited by Pears; 1st January 2014 at 02:19 PM.

  23. #23

    Default Re: Facial Oil fragrance, rose otto

    Thank you so much for this information.

    I am not sure whether I will go down the route of opting out of the IFRA standards. In regards to the other ingredients used in the facial oil they are all completely harmless carrier oils and exotic botanicals. I've spent years researching these ingredients and as my line is a organic and natural line I wanted the line to be as holistic and green as possible. Unfortunately essential oils and fragrances are not my forte. I know that customers are more likely to use products that have a gorgeous smell as it works on calming the mind and has more of a holistic benefit to the body and mind rather than a fragrance free product.

    I know another brand that uses 5% essential oils in their face oil and they passed the EU regulations so I am sure I will be fine keeping mine to 1.5% essentials oils. In water formulations like creams/lotions the essential oils are far more potent and much less are required however in a 100% oil formulation it's a completely different story and this is where I am finding the difficulty in formulating the fragrance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pears View Post
    I remember reading that following the IFRA standards was voluntary. To quote the IFRA:

    "Together with the industry’s scientific centre, RIFM (the Research Institute for Fragrance Materials), the IFRA team endeavors to make sure that usage standards for fragrance materials are put into practice according to the available scientific recommendation, and that member companies comply with those standards. This voluntary approach enables the IFRA standards to be adopted very rapidly by fragrance houses worldwide and by the industry as a whole."

    http://www.ifraorg.org/en/about-ifra-text#.UsQmo20qvKc

    From what the IFRA have stated, opting out of their standards may only be a realistic option for small businesses, who sell directly to the end user. Larger companies may have much more demanding clients in the form of retailers. Perhaps following the IFRA standards protects companies from any adverse claims made by end users also. If you do opt out of using the IFRA standards, it would be a good idea to avoid using any highly sensitizing ingredients, to protect yourself against the possibility of such claims. The chances of someone having a reaction to a 1% concentration of Rose otto seems very remote, so it would probably be more of a case of being careful of what you blend it with.

  24. #24

    Default Re: Facial Oil fragrance, rose otto

    Quote Originally Posted by Graphite View Post
    I was thinking of this, too, but geranium can easily take over and give a rose scent a, well, geranium appeal.
    I experience this in the facial cleanser of my favorite brand, The Organic Pharmacy. It contains more rose damascena, according to the ingredient list, but actually smells of perlagonium. Which is quite disappointing when you're after some rosy feel.
    I hope you can find a satisfying solution, codydan! Luckily you don't need to be IFRA compliant.
    I agree, I find that Palmarosa blends in with Rose much more easily, Geranium has a strong sharp note which dominates everything else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nizan View Post
    I meant naturals that were used to adulterate rose. I read somewhere that palmarosa was used..
    Cody could also add some Natural Phenylethyl Alcohol to enhance the Rose fragrance, rather than using the synthesized form. It's naturally found in Rose and smells rosey so it makes sense to use it to make the otto go a little further.
    Last edited by Pears; 1st January 2014 at 02:49 PM.

  25. #25

    Default Re: Facial Oil fragrance, rose otto

    Another thought, though it may not be relevant - what about hydrosols? Could be that they contain less of the irritating materials.

  26. #26

    Default Re: Facial Oil fragrance, rose otto

    I use an organic rose hydrosol in my toner, it's gorgeous! If only working with oils was as easy as water based products!

    Quote Originally Posted by Nizan View Post
    Another thought, though it may not be relevant - what about hydrosols? Could be that they contain less of the irritating materials.

  27. #27

    Default Re: Facial Oil fragrance, rose otto

    Phenylethyl Alcohol would not work in an oil would it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pears View Post
    I agree, I find that Palmarosa blends in with Rose much more easily, Geranium has a strong sharp note which dominates everything else.



    Cody could also add some Natural Phenylethyl Alcohol to enhance the Rose fragrance, rather than using the synthesized form. It's naturally found in Rose and smells rosey so it makes sense to use it to make the otto go a little further.

  28. #28

    Default Re: Facial Oil fragrance, rose otto

    Quote Originally Posted by codydan85 View Post
    Phenylethyl Alcohol would not work in an oil would it?
    That's a good question. I thought that you meant a facial cream rather than an oil, in which case the emulsifier in the cream would have emulsified the phenylethyl alcohol. However, whether or not it will dissolve to a considerable degree in a fixed oil, as oppose to emulsify, is difficult to say.

    The reason being that it's an alcohol. Alcohols have a polar hydroxyl group which makes them soluble to varying degrees in polar solvents like water. However, they also have carbon sections which are often nonpolar, so they can also dissolve nonpolar compounds (oils etc) to varying degrees.

    Phenylethyl alcohol is only sparingly soluble in water, unlike ethyl alcohol, so it's considerably less polar than ethyl alcohol. It's much more soluble in ether, which is only very slightly polar. So phenylethyl alcohol is likely to be able to dissolve considerably more fixed oil than ethyl alcohol but by exactly how much I could not say. It wouldn't need to be highly soluble in the oil because you'd only be adding a small percentage.

    Castor oil contains 85-95% ricinoleic acid, which is unusual in that it contains a hydroxyl group, making it much more soluble in alcohols. So you could include a little Castor oil in your facial oil to further increase the solubility of the phenylethyl alcohol. I hoped that this helps.

    Pears
    Last edited by Pears; 1st January 2014 at 05:59 PM.

  29. #29

    Default Re: Facial Oil fragrance, rose otto

    Whilst compliance may not technically be required of non IFRA members, products sold in retail outlets in the EEC are regulated afaik so many non IFRA members comply anyway - the stockist will require this.
    The EEC certification requirements refer to IFRA regulations as will be seen by reading the info in the links in post #19.

    Obviously, anyone selling a non-compliant retail product is at higher risk of losing any legal actions brought by disgruntled consumers and therefore it is important that we should not advise people to produce for sale non-compliant products - particularly those intended to be used on the face.

    The cost of defending a legal action, however spurious, is a consideration.
    Last edited by lpp; 1st January 2014 at 05:55 PM.

  30. #30

    Default Re: Facial Oil fragrance, rose otto

    Hi Pears and Codydan... and all others have given some good thoughts, but I'm afraid that more research will turn into a research project that at this point is unpaid, so I will decline to comment further unless I can feed my family with the proceeds... I hope you understand... :-)

    PK
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  31. #31

    Default Re: Facial Oil fragrance, rose otto

    I do, Paul. You've emptied your pockets on Christmas presents, the biggest turkey, Champagne, Port, cigars etc. and you need to make some money!

  32. #32

    Default Re: Facial Oil fragrance, rose otto

    Paul, your post count number is looking rather ominous, better change it quick! lol
    Last edited by Pears; 1st January 2014 at 06:45 PM.

  33. #33

    Default Re: Facial Oil fragrance, rose otto

    I don't see why any business should be expected to consult free of charge in respect of another person's business venture.

  34. #34

    Default Re: Facial Oil fragrance, rose otto

    Neither do I, lpp. What was said was with tongue in cheek, as most of us will be feeling the pinch after Christmas.

  35. #35

    Default Re: Facial Oil fragrance, rose otto

    Quote Originally Posted by Pears View Post
    Paul, your post count number is looking rather ominous, better change it quick! lol
    Oh Yes, I took care of that... :-) I guess that my huddler post count may show up SOME day! But not today...
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  36. #36

    Default Re: Facial Oil fragrance, rose otto

    All, thank you so much for your time and help. It has been greatly appreciated. I did not expect such informative responses. I hope you have a great start to the new year!

  37. #37

    Default Re: Facial Oil fragrance, rose otto

    Quote Originally Posted by lpp View Post
    Whilst compliance may not technically be required of non IFRA members, products sold in retail outlets in the EEC are regulated afaik so many non IFRA members comply anyway - the stockist will require this.
    ...
    Would you mind providing a source to prove this statement?


    Quote Originally Posted by lpp View Post
    ...
    Obviously, anyone selling a non-compliant retail product is at higher risk of losing any legal actions brought by disgruntled consumers and therefore it is important that we should not advise people to produce for sale non-compliant products - particularly those intended to be used on the face.

    The cost of defending a legal action, however spurious, is a consideration.
    How would that be possible if someone is observing the law within the production process?
    Last edited by Graphite; 1st January 2014 at 07:39 PM.

  38. #38

    Default Re: Facial Oil fragrance, rose otto

    It might well be different in your country, Graphite, but as a Moderator here it is important to me that we do not mislead members (or others) reading these threads.

    I think that proof of the lack of importance in complying with EEC law is required here if this discussion is to be continued.

    The O.P. has now thanked members for their help so we may close the thread.

  39. #39

    Default Re: Facial Oil fragrance, rose otto

    I find your unverifiable statements misleading, lpp.

  40. #40

    Default Re: Facial Oil fragrance, rose otto

    Until such time as we have proof that people in the U.K. may sell products which are not compliant with EEC regulations to suppliers without fear of consequence I shall expect to see no further posts on the subject.

    A compliance certificate appears to be necessary here.

    Direct sales to the end user may be regarded differently.
    Last edited by lpp; 1st January 2014 at 09:02 PM.

  41. #41

    Default Re: Facial Oil fragrance, rose otto

    Nobody said one does not have to obey EU law when selling or producing within the EU.

    The question was if IFRA compliance is obligatory. And I think this discussion is important to clarify this. As a lack of knowledge regarding this subject leads to unneccessary self-limitation while creating.

    The acronym EEC may still appear in papers originated before 1993, but it would be less confusing using the actual term EU.
    Last edited by Graphite; 1st January 2014 at 08:59 PM.

  42. #42

    Default Re: Facial Oil fragrance, rose otto

    Quote Originally Posted by codydan85 View Post
    Hi Paul,

    Thank you so much for your detailed response and investigating this for me.

    I do not have a GC for the Organic Rose Otto I'm using - I will have to email my supplier and see if they know.

    I've looked for an Organic Rose Otto that contains little to no Methyl Eugenol but they extremely rare to source and the price is astronomical.

    I will have to what my supplier states the % of Methyl Eugenol is and hope that it's low. Most Organic Rose Otto's I've researched have 1.5%

    Once I've perfected the fragrance of the rose I will have to see how the Cosmetic Products Safety Report comes out as living in the UK under the EU Cosmetics Regulations this Safety report must be completed before I sell it to the public.

    My Facial Oil is a beautiful formulation and I will not rest until I've perfected the rose fragrance to go with the luxurious formulation.

    Thank you for your assistance.

    Happy New Year!
    Graphite - we were discussing EEC regulation compliance.

    As you are not prepared to accept moderation decisions, despite repeated requests to do so, I am locking this thread.

  43. #43

    Default Re: Facial Oil fragrance, rose otto

    There is some useful info. in this link.
    http://www.cosmeticingredients.co.uk/regulation.asp

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