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  1. #31
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    Default Re: Supporting labdanum as base note

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post
    I buy a lot of things from Nemat...

    PK
    Good to know, thanks. The picture they show for the resinoid looks like the high grade hojary frankincense I have. I haven't tried to dissolve any in alcohol so I can't say how well it does or doesn't dissolve...
    Justin E. Beasley

  2. #32

    Default Re: Supporting labdanum as base note

    Thanks!

  3. #33

    Default Re: Supporting labdanum as base note

    The Vanillin works nice.. A bit milky, but I guess I can balance that out later.. Is there
    a difference I should expect when using ethyl vanillin? (Don't have none yet).
    Habanolide - Hard to discern right now, will wait a few days, but it's a nicer musk
    than exaltolide in my opinion..
    Calamus - over-did it at 8%.. Will try to fix. Adds some oiliness/nuttiness..

  4. #34

    Default Re: Supporting labdanum as base note

    Quote Originally Posted by JEBeasley View Post
    I eat propolis almost daily and I have experimented with tincture - my tinctures didn't turn out due to my handling and process so I have not used any of this material yet.

    Propolis can taste different depending on what kind of plants the bees are gathering from so if you have any control over your propolis source or type it might be a good idea to exercise it. I imagine that clover propolis will make a different smelling tincture than if you were to use buckwheat propolis... maybe the distributors blend all of the types together, I don't know, however propolis can taste different from batch to batch just like every other natural material. It's also interesting how different batches of propolis can look drastically different. I have had some batches that were all yellow, or all orange and then there are some that are yellow, orange, green and brown in the same package.
    Quote Originally Posted by Graphite View Post
    Thank you for your answer, Chris.
    On the propolis, I recently saw some in my organic supermarket and thought of tincturing it! But I was unsure if it's worth it. Now I did a quick research and found lots of offers, ranging between 22€ and 40€ per 100g at beekeeper (five e's!) shops or under 15€ at ebay. Raw propolis, powder or chunks. Or are you looking for something special?

    Regarding the honeycomb I have two varieties here. One is golden in colour, Cire d'Abeille (beeswax), and has this bold beeswax aroma; to me animalic, raw and warm. The other one, Brèche d'Abeille (couldn't find a translation), is medium brown, does not need to be filtered and is very mild with delicate hints of cocoa and cinnamon.
    I will surely get some propolis and report :-) Thanks for sharing this!
    The stuff I smelt was still on the hive net and had been lifted from the hive by the beekeeper just before for purposes of a presentation to a group of perfumers. I suspect it may have had a particularly strong scent because it was so fresh. I understand that it is made by the bees from resins from local trees (not pollen) and is used to reinforce the structure of the hive and close gaps to help regulate the temperature. It is quite widely eaten as an allergy remedy as I understand it, though why this should work isn’t clear to me.

    I tasted some and wasn’t particularly taken with it - though it certainly wasn’t unpleasant. The tincture idea has never quite made it to the top of the to-do-list but my thinking was that I’d need to get it direct from a local apiarist to capture the depth of scent that I remember. I’m told the scent, texture and colour all vary significantly depending on the sources of resins that the bees in question have used, which would make sense.
    A person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person.”
    ― Dave Barry

    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation I’m happy to quote: if you want free advice, that’s what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  5. #35

    Default Re: Supporting labdanum as base note

    Quote Originally Posted by Nizan View Post
    It seems quite hard to find this resinoid online from a supplier which ships to Israel for normal fees (I only found one).. Is using a tincture of the resin equivalent to the resinoid? Does myrrh resinoid also smell more like the incense (I like the incense, but can't stand the oil/co2)..
    I know Adam is looking at stocking this because he asked for my help in dealing with it: there are two problems with stocking it that have to be overcome, the first being the fact it is solid and has a high melting point so it’s difficult to handle - that part I solved using IPM - a 50% solution is a slightly sticky but fully mobile liquid that’s easy to use and smells fantastic. That leaves problem number two which was the huge minimum order quantity and I think that remains an issue.
    A person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person.”
    ― Dave Barry

    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation I’m happy to quote: if you want free advice, that’s what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  6. #36

    Default Re: Supporting labdanum as base note

    Quote Originally Posted by Nizan View Post
    The Vanillin works nice.. A bit milky, but I guess I can balance that out later.. Is there
    a difference I should expect when using ethyl vanillin? (Don't have none yet).
    Habanolide - Hard to discern right now, will wait a few days, but it's a nicer musk
    than exaltolide in my opinion..
    Calamus - over-did it at 8%.. Will try to fix. Adds some oiliness/nuttiness..
    Ethyl vanillin has a slightly more chocolaty nuance to it but is otherwise very similar - but keep in mind it is 5-10 times stronger so you’ll need less.
    A person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person.”
    ― Dave Barry

    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation I’m happy to quote: if you want free advice, that’s what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  7. #37

    Default Re: Supporting labdanum as base note

    Thanks! He told me about the huge minimum order.. Sounds weird - who would be willing to buy this amount?! Probably it's only used in perfumes..
    I think I found some company in Latvia who sells small amounts of resinoids. They even have labdanum resinoids and two types or labdanum absolutes from Spain

    I think I'll try to build something with vanillin, habanolide and calamus now.. And maybe ebanol.. Yummy!

    - Update - my costausol was too concentrated and overwhelmed the blend. Now everybody loves it. Go figure-out people..
    Last edited by Nizan; 6th January 2014 at 07:03 PM.

  8. #38

    Default Re: Supporting labdanum as base note

    Quote Originally Posted by Nizan View Post
    ...
    Habanolide - Hard to discern right now, will wait a few days, but it's a nicer musk
    than exaltolide in my opinion..
    I only know exaltolide. How would you describe the difference between them and why do you like habanolide better?

    P.S.: Would you mind sharing the source in Latvia?
    Last edited by Graphite; 6th January 2014 at 07:26 PM.

  9. #39

    Default Re: Supporting labdanum as base note

    Sure, I just thought of maybe waiting till I actually get something from them.. at this
    point I just asked for a quote on shipping and still waiting -

    http://aromata.lt/kvapai/en

    (I think it might be Lithuania..)

    I can try to give you my impression - where exaltolide kind of reminds
    me of a fresh white towel, with really fluffy knit (suggesting its powdery-ness),
    habanolide smells much more juicy and wild (it's not wild - just more
    wild), or should I say more animalic? Exaltolide is kind of sedating,
    and habanolide more arousing..
    In short - maybe someone else could describe the difference better,
    I'm a newbie

  10. #40

    Default Re: Supporting labdanum as base note

    Thank you!

    I get what you mean regarding the musks.

  11. #41
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    Default Re: Supporting labdanum as base note

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Bartlett View Post
    The stuff I smelt was still on the hive net and had been lifted from the hive by the beekeeper just before for purposes of a presentation to a group of perfumers. I suspect it may have had a particularly strong scent because it was so fresh. I understand that it is made by the bees from resins from local trees (not pollen) and is used to reinforce the structure of the hive and close gaps to help regulate the temperature. It is quite widely eaten as an allergy remedy as I understand it, though why this should work isn’t clear to me.
    I tasted some and wasn’t particularly taken with it - though it certainly wasn’t unpleasant. The tincture idea has never quite made it to the top of the to-do-list but my thinking was that I’d need to get it direct from a local apiarist to capture the depth of scent that I remember. I’m told the scent, texture and colour all vary significantly depending on the sources of resins that the bees in question have used, which would make sense.
    This is a propolis product I have never heard of, thank you for your description. I am aware of the pollen/propolis, honey, honeycomb and royal jelly products but the hive sealer resin is new to me, I'll definitely look into finding this product as it seems like an interesting material.

    When I tinctured my bee pollen I tinctured it in alcohol but I experimented with using an ultrasonic device to assist in the breakup of the pollen and quicken the tincturing process. The resultant tincture was highly phenolic and in fact smelled malty, burnt, quite a bit like electrical wiring, electricity, metalic, etc. Very strange and very strong. I tried different sonication times to test how this "aging" assist might work. The tincture that turned out the best had undergone one sonication period of 8 minutes at 42khz, the pollen solution was still pleasant and was slightly malty with floral aspects. The burnt tincture was made after three or four sonication periods of 8 minutes each. After my day of experimenting and ruining all of my samples (I never kept a control) I never went back and remade a tincture because the smell I got wasn't anything really different or beyond what I got from the honeycomb abs I have. I will definitely try pollen tincture again, this time using more conventional methods
    Last edited by JEBeasley; 6th January 2014 at 09:39 PM.
    Justin E. Beasley

  12. #42
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    Default Re: Supporting labdanum as base note

    Quote Originally Posted by Nizan View Post
    It seems quite hard to find this resinoid online from a supplier which ships to Israel for normal fees (I only found one).. Is using a tincture of the resin equivalent to the resinoid? Does myrrh resinoid also smell more like the incense (I like the incense, but can't stand the oil/co2)..
    I detest the smell of myrhh oil in full strength, it's is such a green, malty, balsamic and overpowering smell I'm more keen on diluting it considerably before use. You might also look into guggul resin, it's similar to myrrh but is sweeter and not quite so intense or green. I have a chunk of guggul but haven't used it yet.
    Justin E. Beasley

  13. #43

    Default Re: Supporting labdanum as base note

    I share the sentiment.. even at 1% the drydown annoys me!
    I'll give it a whiff when I get some

  14. #44

    Default Re: Supporting labdanum as base note

    Quote Originally Posted by JEBeasley View Post
    ... I have a chunk of guggul but haven't used it yet.
    Give it a try and roast it. Yes, roasting, not burning. That's what I do with guggul and it smells wonderful.

  15. #45

    Default Re: Supporting labdanum as base note

    Quote Originally Posted by JEBeasley View Post
    I detest the smell of myrhh oil in full strength, it's is such a green, malty, balsamic and overpowering smell I'm more keen on diluting it considerably before use. You might also look into guggul resin, it's similar to myrrh but is sweeter and not quite so intense or green. I have a chunk of guggul but haven't used it yet.
    You could also consider opoponax - it isn’t called ‘sweet myrrh’ for nothing . . .
    A person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person.”
    ― Dave Barry

    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation I’m happy to quote: if you want free advice, that’s what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  16. #46
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    Default Re: Supporting labdanum as base note

    Quote Originally Posted by Graphite View Post
    Give it a try and roast it. Yes, roasting, not burning. That's what I do with guggul and it smells wonderful.
    I will try that, thanks for the tip. Do you mean for perfumery purposes or as incense?
    Justin E. Beasley

  17. #47
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    Default Re: Supporting labdanum as base note

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Bartlett View Post
    You could also consider opoponax - it isn’t called ‘sweet myrrh’ for nothing . . .
    Sweet myrrh is nice, I have that material also and I do like it. I was not sure of it's connection to standard myrrh as I haven't used it much or looked into it really.
    Justin E. Beasley

  18. #48

    Default Re: Supporting labdanum as base note

    Quote Originally Posted by JEBeasley View Post
    I will try that, thanks for the tip. Do you mean for perfumery purposes or as incense?
    As incense.

  19. #49
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    Default Re: Supporting labdanum as base note

    Quote Originally Posted by Graphite View Post
    As incense.
    Sounds good, how do you roast it without burning it? Potpourri burner? Digital hot-plate? Hahaha.
    Justin E. Beasley

  20. #50

    Default Re: Supporting labdanum as base note

    deleted
    Last edited by DrSmellThis; 9th January 2014 at 08:24 AM.

  21. #51

    Default Re: Supporting labdanum as base note

    ?!?

  22. #52

    Default Re: Supporting labdanum as base note

    I continue to be confused about labdanum. I have cistus labdanum absolute which is virtually solid. I also have labdanum resinoid which smells slightly lemony or herbal but not particularly balsamic as I might have expected. The resinoid doesn't dissolve completely in alcohol but floats around as an oil within the tincture. Which should I use in which circumstances?

  23. #53

    Default Re: Supporting labdanum as base note

    I thought that by definition resinoids are soluble in alcohol. Could be that you have the resin? I'm using the absolute, but it came pre-diluted, so no idea how solid it is. You could get even more confuse if you consider cistus absolute

  24. #54

    Default Re: Supporting labdanum as base note

    Oh, you're right. I have the resin. Is it of any use? Should I track down the resinoid?

  25. #55

    Default Re: Supporting labdanum as base note

    You can burn it as incense.. Or maybe filter out the soluble part..

    For anyone who might be interested, I've also found vetrofix to be quite useful.. It helps bringing out that warm skin/leather aspect (though maybe it's too "old wood" for me..).

  26. #56

    Default Re: Supporting labdanum as base note

    Quote Originally Posted by JEBeasley View Post
    Sounds good, how do you roast it without burning it? Potpourri burner? Digital hot-plate? Hahaha.
    I take an old aroma lamp (those with tea lights) and replace the bowl by a small metal pot.


    Quote Originally Posted by James Peterson View Post
    Oh, you're right. I have the resin. Is it of any use? Should I track down the resinoid?
    I made a 20% tincture with the resin and filtered it. It's lovely.

  27. #57
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    Default Re: Supporting labdanum as base note

    Thanks for the tip
    Justin E. Beasley

  28. #58

    Default Re: Supporting labdanum as base note

    Quote Originally Posted by Nizan View Post
    You can burn it as incense.. Or maybe filter out the soluble part..

    For anyone who might be interested, I've also found vetrofix to be quite useful.. It helps bringing out that warm skin/leather aspect (though maybe it's too "old wood" for me..).
    Vertofix is an animal note, to some extent; and every animal note pretty much goes with every amber note.

  29. #59

    Default Re: Supporting labdanum as base note

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Bartlett View Post
    It is quite widely eaten as an allergy remedy as I understand it, though why this should work isn’t clear to me. .
    Propolis will have traces of local pollens, if you buy locally, which makes it superior way to get microdoses of your actual allergens, to desensensitize your body. Allergy shot serum typically isn't made locally to patients. I believe that's the theory, same as the pollen.

  30. #60

    Default Re: Supporting labdanum as base note

    Quote Originally Posted by DrSmellThis View Post
    Propolis will have traces of local pollens, if you buy locally, which makes it superior way to get microdoses of your actual allergens, to desensensitize your body. Allergy shot serum typically isn't made locally to patients. I believe that's the theory, same as the pollen.
    Labdanum is a resin, and I had luck with the resinoid, IIRC. It needed melting and was alcohol soluble. In most of my readings the EO was called "cistus." But maybe few talk that way now. Loved that stuff.

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