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  1. #1

    Post Supporting labdanum as base note

    I've been going around this for a couple of weeks, as some of you notices.
    I don't seem to be getting anywhere, and some help would probably make
    me somewhat happier
    I'm planning on using labdanum as a center for a base note, and wanted to
    enhance its warm sweet skin aspect. I've done some experimenting, some
    of which are -

    • Civet (from perfumer's world) - adds warmth, but the scents separate.. will
      probably need to add a blender.
    • Ambroxan/fix - a step in the right direction, but a bit too powdery/musky
    • Cassia - too dry
    • Cedramber - same
    • Castoreum (PW) - a bit too leathery - takes away the sweetness..
    • Spikenard - jockstrap
    • Different musks - exaltolide, galaxolide - too laundry/powder
    • Cotausol - Maybe.. A bit too bright.

    (I'm providing some details as someone in the future might find it useful,
    or will give someone ideas..)

    And there were a few more.. I also looked at the GSC GC analysis, but it doesn't say much to me, as most chemicals aren't
    available..

    Does anyone know which of the chems in the GC give it its warmth
    and sweetness? Any other ideas how to support this aspect of the
    scent?

    Danke Shoen

  2. #2

    Default Re: Supporting labdanum as base note

    Love Labdanum. To me its one of those materials that can stand alone. I like blending it with benzoin or other sweet resinous bases. My 2 cents
    Zanshin

  3. #3

    Default Re: Supporting labdanum as base note

    Peruoil maybe? Benzoe? In a base goes perfectly with Patchouli and Vetyver. Copaiva?
    http://www.aromatisches-blog.de
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  4. #4

    Default Re: Supporting labdanum as base note

    Fossilized amber tincture, vanilla tincture and honey absolue.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Supporting labdanum as base note

    Quote Originally Posted by Graphite View Post
    Fossilized amber tincture, vanilla tincture and honey absolue.
    Yes, that fossilized amber is nice, it will also impart a mild but warm and smooth smoke note too.
    Also, frankincense resinoid
    Justin E. Beasley

  6. #6

    Default Re: Supporting labdanum as base note

    I've had that amber on my sites.. Having high hopes for it. As for peru and copaiba - not exactly what I'm looking for (though my peru and bezoine resinoids smell really bitter - it takes a couple of weeks for this bitterness to disperse. Some weird artifact of shipping). I will have to try tincturing, as frankincense oil is too fresh..
    And as for gourmand - don't have real vanilla.. Will try vanillin when I get some. Any experience with maltols anyone? I thought honey is a middle note, no?

    And ideas for chems?

    Thanks everyone

  7. #7

    Default Re: Supporting labdanum as base note

    I've tried patchouli, but it's too smokey. Maybe when I get the coeur..

  8. #8
    Basenotes Member aubrieta's Avatar
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    Default Re: Supporting labdanum as base note

    Ethyl Vanillin pairs nicely with labdanum. Also, have you tried something along the lines of ebanol/sandalwood?

  9. #9

    Default Re: Supporting labdanum as base note

    Quote Originally Posted by aubrieta View Post
    Ethyl Vanillin pairs nicely with labdanum. Also, have you tried something along the lines of ebanol/sandalwood?
    I heard horror stories about ethyl vanillin nit coming off bottles, so I didn't get any.. I've tried sandal - it outlives labdanum by a factor of 4, so I'm not sure about it.. It also cools things down a bit.. I have some other woods on the way that I might try..
    It feels like it's going nowhere with all those two notes experiments.. But that's a part of this art, I guess..

  10. #10
    Basenotes Member aubrieta's Avatar
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    Default Re: Supporting labdanum as base note

    So what is your goal? To give it a more rounded/robust quality? Or to increase the "sizzle and smoke" aspect? If you want to give it a good amber effect, I would recommend at least trying a vanilla. Ethyl Vanillin is not so bad to work with. Or possibly coumarin...I love coumarin.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Supporting labdanum as base note

    Will try both..

    Any idea how to add some espresso scents? My coffee abs smells like Turkish coffee.. Do they add something to the beans to make them smell like that?

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Supporting labdanum as base note

    "Bitter benzoin, smokey patchouli and turkish coffee", all descriptions that are totally different from my experiences. The benzoin I have is sweet, balsamic with a root beer aspect. All of my patchoulis are earthy but I wouldn't describe any as smokey and my coffee absolute just smells of normal black coffee albeit a bit sweeter - almost like black coffee with sugar in it. Check out Tonka bean for a coumarinic natural.
    Justin E. Beasley

  13. #13

    Default Re: Supporting labdanum as base note

    The bitterness will go away.. It's a weird thing that happens on some shipped EO/resins..
    The patchouli made it dirty/smokey.. Two friends even said it smells like camphoric Chinese medicine (in that blend..). Not sure what you mean when you say black coffee, coz from what I saw in the US it's slightly different from what we call black coffee (here we use it interchangeably with Turkish coffee). Anyhow, it's not as full like espresso.. But maybe I'll give it a try and sweeten in with vanilla/coumarin..

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Supporting labdanum as base note

    Quote Originally Posted by Nizan View Post
    The bitterness will go away.. It's a weird thing that happens on some shipped EO/resins..
    The patchouli made it dirty/smokey.. Two friends even said it smells like camphoric Chinese medicine (in that blend..). Not sure what you mean when you say black coffee, coz from what I saw in the US it's slightly different from what we call black coffee (here we use it interchangeably with Turkish coffee). Anyhow, it's not as full like espresso.. But maybe I'll give it a try and sweeten in with vanilla/coumarin..
    Just goes to show how different peoples senses can be. Your patchouli might be fresher and have a lot more volotiles than mine. Try an aged patchouli, I have a five year patchouli and patchouli absolute both with very little trace of top notes. I just looked up turkish coffee and it looks like it is black coffee with sugar in it but it's probably specifically an arabic coffee. That is how my coffee abs smells. Vanilla and tonka/coumarin would be nice additions albeit sweet, if that's what you want it will definitely take it in that direction. Also check out levistamel for a sweet, mildly balsamic aroma chem - dilute, a little goes a long way.
    Last edited by JEBeasley; 3rd January 2014 at 04:01 AM.
    Justin E. Beasley

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Supporting labdanum as base note

    I haven't read much into the thread (just the first few messages) but what about fixateur 505? Should be a closer match than Ambroxan.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Supporting labdanum as base note

    Quote Originally Posted by Nizan View Post
    I've had that amber on my sites.. Having high hopes for it. As for peru and copaiba - not exactly what I'm looking for (though my peru and bezoine resinoids smell really bitter - it takes a couple of weeks for this bitterness to disperse. Some weird artifact of shipping). I will have to try tincturing, as frankincense oil is too fresh..
    And as for gourmand - don't have real vanilla.. Will try vanillin when I get some. Any experience with maltols anyone? I thought honey is a middle note, no?

    And ideas for chems?

    Thanks everyone
    Some thoughts that have not been mentioned previously & may help:

    With olibanum (frankincense) you want the resinoid rather than the oil - that way you’ll get the incense note rather than the lemony one. Failing that try some oil from Boswelia neglecta instead of the usual sacra or carterii.

    One of my favourite things with labdanum is Habanolide - really works with it well - use freely.

    To get a gentle chocolaty-coffee note (rather than the burnt-toast effect you get from coffee absolute) try using a combination of a very light patchouli, ebanol, cashmeran, ambermax, ethyl maltol (trace) and ethyl vanillin.

    Personally I find honey absolute a bit underwhelming but you can get a nice honey-floral note from phenyl ethyl acetate.
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  17. #17

    Default Re: Supporting labdanum as base note

    @Chris: This might be a silly question but it's the right moment to ask: is there scent-wise a difference between honeycomb abs. and honey abs.? (I own the honeycomb abs.)
    Last edited by Graphite; 3rd January 2014 at 06:04 PM.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Supporting labdanum as base note

    There are several bee products of potential interest to the perfumer. Technically honey and honeycomb should be two different products but in practice true honey abs is very rare & what us sold under that name is usually honeycomb abs.

    The really interesting product however is propolis - I have smelt, but never used in a perfume, this material. I'd love to have a supply to tincture as it has the most amazing animalic, balsamic, complex scent.
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    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation I’m happy to quote: if you want free advice, that’s what these forums are for
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  19. #19

    Default Re: Supporting labdanum as base note

    I don't understand this thread too well because labdanum is almost the easiest thing in perfuming to find good combos with. It smells good by itself. It's almost like sandalwood or musk. Nothing doesn't combine with sandalwood or musk. I can't think of anything you can't blend with labdanum or cistus.

    Labdanum is an amber note. There are countless amber notes. All of them will blend well with labdanum. The most basic thing to blend with labdanum is benzoin, but there are easily hundreds of amber notes. There's almost no wrong answer.

    There are hundreds of warm, sweet things. There are many things that suggest skin, and all of them go with labdanum. Costus, musks, ambergris, iso-e. Just try ambergris. I can't imagine anything less than stellar results.

    BTW, I like honey abs. Very floral and animalic. Like champaca.
    Last edited by DrSmellThis; 3rd January 2014 at 09:42 PM.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Supporting labdanum as base note

    Thank you for your answer, Chris.
    On the propolis, I recently saw some in my organic supermarket and thought of tincturing it! But I was unsure if it's worth it. Now I did a quick research and found lots of offers, ranging between 22€ and 40€ per 100g at beekeeper (five e's!) shops or under 15€ at ebay. Raw propolis, powder or chunks. Or are you looking for something special?

    Regarding the honeycomb I have two varieties here. One is golden in colour, Cire d'Abeille (beeswax), and has this bold beeswax aroma; to me animalic, raw and warm. The other one, Brèche d'Abeille (couldn't find a translation), is medium brown, does not need to be filtered and is very mild with delicate hints of cocoa and cinnamon.
    I will surely get some propolis and report :-) Thanks for sharing this!

  21. #21
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    Default Re: Supporting labdanum as base note

    I eat propolis almost daily and I have experimented with tincture - my tinctures didn't turn out due to my handling and process so I have not used any of this material yet.

    Propolis can taste different depending on what kind of plants the bees are gathering from so if you have any control over your propolis source or type it might be a good idea to exercise it. I imagine that clover propolis will make a different smelling tincture than if you were to use buckwheat propolis... maybe the distributors blend all of the types together, I don't know, however propolis can taste different from batch to batch just like every other natural material. It's also interesting how different batches of propolis can look drastically different. I have had some batches that were all yellow, or all orange and then there are some that are yellow, orange, green and brown in the same package.
    Justin E. Beasley

  22. #22

    Default Re: Supporting labdanum as base note

    Hmm.. Maybe I should get me some propolis.. You dissolve it in hot water, or just eat it with a spoon?
    Chris - thanks for the tips! I just though that maybe I should start acquainting myself with resinoids. And also for the chemicals tips.. I have most of those
    DrSmell - I have a certain impression that I want to get, that's why I'm so picky with mixing.. Ambergris and ambrox did get me closer, but most things I tried weren't going in the right direction..

  23. #23
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    Default Re: Supporting labdanum as base note

    Quote Originally Posted by Nizan View Post
    Hmm.. Maybe I should get me some propolis.. You dissolve it in hot water, or just eat it with a spoon?
    Chris - thanks for the tips! I just though that maybe I should start acquainting myself with resinoids. And also for the chemicals tips.. I have most of those
    DrSmell - I have a certain impression that I want to get, that's why I'm so picky with mixing.. Ambergris and ambrox did get me closer, but most things I tried weren't going in the right direction..
    I usually blend it into a protein shake with banana and rice milk but you can eat it any way you like it, it's also great for making protein bars with nut butters and grains. It's very mildly honey sweet, floral, animalic and slightly malty. I like the texture and its has some benefit to health in addition to providing a mild energy boost (B-vitamins, anti-microbial activity, amino acids, protein, carbohydrates, etc). Anecdotally it's said to be good for people with seasonal allergies if you are eating propolis from local bees that use local pollen however I have not experienced this benefit so I can not vouch for it. All I can attest to is that it tastes good, I like the texture in foods and it puts a little more pep in my step.
    Justin E. Beasley

  24. #24

    Default Re: Supporting labdanum as base note

    My fake vanilla seems to work nicely at low dilutions.. I've also tried sniffing it with calamus room - pretty interesting. Anyone has some experience with it?

  25. #25

    Default Re: Supporting labdanum as base note

    With olibanum (frankincense) you want the resinoid rather than the oil
    It seems quite hard to find this resinoid online from a supplier which ships to Israel for normal fees (I only found one).. Is using a tincture of the resin equivalent to the resinoid? Does myrrh resinoid also smell more like the incense (I like the incense, but can't stand the oil/co2)..

  26. #26
    Paul Kiler
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    Default Re: Supporting labdanum as base note

    http://www.nematinternational.com/pr..._absolutes.php

    A tincture of the resin is very useful but is different from the resinoid too.

    PK
    Paul Kiler
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  27. #27
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    Default Re: Supporting labdanum as base note

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post
    http://www.nematinternational.com/pr..._absolutes.php
    A tincture of the resin is very useful but is different from the resinoid too.
    PK
    Paul, I thought EO/abs extraction or tinctures were the only usable option for perfumery... If not as an EO or as a tincture how is the resinoid prepared so as to make it usable since it's a solid?
    Justin E. Beasley

  28. #28
    Paul Kiler
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    Default Re: Supporting labdanum as base note

    Well, the resinoid is completley soluble in alcohol, while the resin itself is not. But I'm not really sure about the technical preparation, I'd have to look it up myself.

    PK
    Paul Kiler
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  29. #29
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    Default Re: Supporting labdanum as base note

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post
    Well, the resinoid is completley soluble in alcohol, while the resin itself is not. But I'm not really sure about the technical preparation, I'd have to look it up myself.
    PK
    Oh, interesting, so it sounds as though it's an alcohol extraction where the solvent has been evaporated and it's sold as a solid. Is nematinternational.com a trustworthy vendor for such things? How about other things?
    Justin E. Beasley

  30. #30
    Paul Kiler
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    Default Re: Supporting labdanum as base note

    I buy a lot of things from Nemat...

    PK
    Paul Kiler
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