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  1. #1

    Default How to speed up the blending/curing process of a fragrance

    Happy new year to all professional and amateur perfumers around!

    My new "problem" (lol) has to do with the blending/curing/maturing process of my "wannabe" fragrances.
    I have noticed that almost all of them need at least 3 or even 4 months in order to smell like a compact blend,
    that can sand alone either as a base or a complete fragrance.
    Question : Is there a way to speed up this process?

  2. #2
    Paul Kiler
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    Default Re: How to speed up the blending/curing process of a fragrance

    Seems like this is pretty normal...

    The Art and Craft of Perfumery is not a fast discipline, but a fairly contemplative one.

    PK
    Paul Kiler
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    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  3. #3

    Default Re: How to speed up the blending/curing process of a fragrance

    Prayers?
    I once saw on youtube someone using those magnetic blenders, but no idea how helpful this practice is..

  4. #4

    Default Re: How to speed up the blending/curing process of a fragrance

    Quote Originally Posted by evinick View Post
    Happy new year to all professional and amateur perfumers around!

    My new "problem" (lol) has to do with the blending/curing/maturing process of my "wannabe" fragrances.
    I have noticed that almost all of them need at least 3 or even 4 months in order to smell like a compact blend,
    that can sand alone either as a base or a complete fragrance.
    Question : Is there a way to speed up this process?
    Yes there is: warmth

    For many common chemical reactions at or near room temperature, the reaction rate doubles for every 10 degree Celsius increase in temperature and this includes those which take place in a maturing perfume. This Ďnatural lawí (in inverted commas because it does not always apply) is based on the Arrhenius equation, which posits that the rate of a reaction doubles for every 10 degrees rise in temperature.

    In commercial perfumery new fragrances are routinely age-tested at ~40 Centigrate for about 12 weeks in order to approximate the ageing effects that would occur over 12 months at ~20 Centigrade.

    Where speed is of the essence testing for 3 weeks at 60 Centigrade might be use to the same end, but because perfumery materials are almost without exception organic compounds this is less reliable an indicator: some chemists believe that the Arrhenius equation does not apply above body temperature (or thereabouts) as many organic reactions are accelerated above this temperature beyond that predicted by the equation.

    In practical terms this means that I routinely mature my fragrances in a warm room, but store them once maturation is complete under refrigeration until they are sold. This ensures maximum consistency. Fragrances under test are always kept in warm conditions as it is important to know how they will develop over the medium to long term.

    Hope that helps.
    ďA person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person
    ― Dave Barry

    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Iím happy to quote: if you want free advice, thatís what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: How to speed up the blending/curing process of a fragrance

    Chris,
    Any risk of explosions at temps between 40C & 60C?
    I've warmed bottles of diluted AC's on a 50C hot plate (digital temp control) and promptly forgot about them only to have the rubber bulbs explode.
    Justin E. Beasley

  6. #6

    Default Re: How to speed up the blending/curing process of a fragrance

    Reading Chris' comments on using warmth - for a long time now I've been using a USB coffee warmer for this sort of thing. You can get them for a couple of dollars on eBay and they don't get overly hot, just warm enough to help with dissolving stubborn things and to speed up maturation of a blend. Just have it sitting on your bench and it's ready to go whenever you need a warm pad. Saves messing around with water baths.
    Today's handy tip.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: How to speed up the blending/curing process of a fragrance

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark View Post
    Reading Chris' comments on using warmth - for a long time now I've been using a USB coffee warmer for this sort of thing. You can get them for a couple of dollars on eBay and they don't get overly hot, just warm enough to help with dissolving stubborn things and to speed up maturation of a blend. Just have it sitting on your bench and it's ready to go whenever you need a warm pad. Saves messing around with water baths.
    Today's handy tip.
    Great idea Mark, thanks for the tip, cheap too!
    Justin E. Beasley

  8. #8

    Default Re: How to speed up the blending/curing process of a fragrance

    Quote Originally Posted by JEBeasley View Post
    Chris,
    Any risk of explosions at temps between 40C & 60C?
    I've warmed bottles of diluted AC's on a 50C hot plate (digital temp control) and promptly forgot about them only to have the rubber bulbs explode.
    I probably should have been a bit clearer about how I do this. As an example Iím currently doing an ambergris tincture, which needs to be kept at about 37 Centigrade with constant agitation: Iím using a heater / stirrer to achieve this and the tincture is in a large Simax bottle: these are strong but to avoid problems I nevertheless ensure the pressure is as even as possible by releasing the lid for a while as it gets up to temperature and then sealing it firmly after that (to avoid the alcohol evaporating away).

    Up to about 50 Centigrade or so this is quite safe as long as youíre using good quality, strong containers. For things that donít need stirring, or which need higher temperatures, I use an aluminium flask (lacquered, otherwise you might get reactions with the aluminium) a 0.5Kg to 5Kg flask will fit onto the heater/stirrer quite readily and thatís the larges amount I normally have to heat.

    Rubber bulbs are, as youíve discovered, a no-no for this sort of work.
    ďA person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person
    ― Dave Barry

    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Iím happy to quote: if you want free advice, thatís what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: How to speed up the blending/curing process of a fragrance

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Bartlett View Post
    I probably should have been a bit clearer about how I do this. As an example I’m currently doing an ambergris tincture, which needs to be kept at about 37 Centigrade with constant agitation: I’m using a heater / stirrer to achieve this and the tincture is in a large Simax bottle: these are strong but to avoid problems I nevertheless ensure the pressure is as even as possible by releasing the lid for a while as it gets up to temperature and then sealing it firmly after that (to avoid the alcohol evaporating away).

    Up to about 50 Centigrade or so this is quite safe as long as you’re using good quality, strong containers. For things that don’t need stirring, or which need higher temperatures, I use an aluminium flask (lacquered, otherwise you might get reactions with the aluminium) a 0.5Kg to 5Kg flask will fit onto the heater/stirrer quite readily and that’s the larges amount I normally have to heat.

    Rubber bulbs are, as you’ve discovered, a no-no for this sort of work.
    Thanks for elaborating Chris, I had a feeling there was something more to it, hahaha. There's nothing quite like being totally immersed in a blissful state of blending immersion when suddenly a loud pop erupts from the corner of the room and everything gets sprayed with a fine mist of guaiacwood or cashemeran, etc.
    Justin E. Beasley

  10. #10

    Default Re: How to speed up the blending/curing process of a fragrance

    As Chris and I discussed in another thread several months ago, when heating liquids you should leave adequate headspace to account for the build up in pressure from liquid and gas expansion. If you do as Chris suggested above and release the lid while the liquid gets up to temperature, then you won't need to leave as much headspace, ofcourse but it's still a good idea to leave some space.
    Last edited by Pears; 8th January 2014 at 11:04 PM.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: How to speed up the blending/curing process of a fragrance

    Quote Originally Posted by Pears View Post
    As Chris and I discussed in another thread several months ago, when heating liquids you should leave adequate head space to account for the build up in pressure from liquid and gas expansion. If you do as Chris suggested above and release the lid while the liquid gets up to temperature, then you won't need to leave as much headspace, ofcourse but you should still some space.
    More good info, thanks Pears.
    Justin E. Beasley

  12. #12

    Default Re: How to speed up the blending/curing process of a fragrance

    Great info indeed, Thanks everyone and especially Chris for his scientific approach to this matter.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: How to speed up the blending/curing process of a fragrance

    After reading Arctander's description of ultrasonic assisted distillations I've been searching out information on the subject and experimenting with ultrasonic frequencies on the bench. Sonochemistry is way outside of my educational experience but it seems as though it might be applicable to this subject since ultrasonic frequencies are known to speed up certain chemical processes.
    Justin E. Beasley

  14. #14

    Default Re: How to speed up the blending/curing process of a fragrance

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark View Post
    Reading Chris' comments on using warmth - for a long time now I've been using a USB coffee warmer for this sort of thing. You can get them for a couple of dollars on eBay and they don't get overly hot, just warm enough to help with dissolving stubborn things and to speed up maturation of a blend. Just have it sitting on your bench and it's ready to go whenever you need a warm pad. Saves messing around with water baths.
    Today's handy tip.
    I've used a tabletop space heater before, set on low, to hurry up tinctures. It was probably a bad idea, but when you lack formal perfumer training you do any number of silly things (which, as far as you know, could be the etymology of "silliage").

  15. #15

    Default Re: How to speed up the blending/curing process of a fragrance

    I think Jeroen suggested just the opposite - putting the mix in the fridge. I'm a bit confused..

  16. #16
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    Default Re: How to speed up the blending/curing process of a fragrance

    Quote Originally Posted by Nizan View Post
    I think Jeroen suggested just the opposite - putting the mix in the fridge. I'm a bit confused..
    Fridge for long term storage. Heat to speed the aging process. So, in essence what I gather is that you could start by heating your mixture in order to age it quickly and then store it in the fridge long term. Or, if you don't want to bother with heating then throw it in the fridge and let it age the long way.
    Justin E. Beasley

  17. #17
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    Default Re: How to speed up the blending/curing process of a fragrance

    now using magnetic stirrer is a good or a bad idea?
    if good, how long would we use and how many time will it shorten (from 4 weeks normal time)
    after aging process completed then putting to fridge in 0-5 C for how many time??
    after all this do we have to make the filtering process??
    as a beginner questions are endless

  18. #18

    Default Re: How to speed up the blending/curing process of a fragrance

    In my little bit of experience... I've had good luck with gently heating and constantly agitating the blend. But, patience is key. Also, make sure you are using perfumer's alcohol or a grain alcohol that's high enough percentage which sounds like common sense but I've heard of people that add vodka or water to blends which will obviously complicate things.
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  19. #19

    Default Re: How to speed up the blending/curing process of a fragrance

    Wow... you guys haven't caught on over on these forums yet. Guess perfumers aren't as creative as e-juice makers.

    Take your bottles, preferably glass, and submerge them to the neck in this machine for about 4 hours at 60C. One cycle with heat on, one cycle with heat off. Alternating works best because the ultrasonic waves will actually heat the water.

    The Magicial Machine: ebay.com/itm/281450702291?_trksid=p2060778.m2749.l2648&ssPageNa me=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

    This process working amazingly for cutting a 5 week steep for e liquid down to 3 - 4 hours and I bet it will work for perfume.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: How to speed up the blending/curing process of a fragrance

    contacted my fragrance supplier and he said that heating the perfume may risk to change the fragrance at all and make perfume useless.
    any expert review of otherminion`s experiment ???

  21. #21
    Paul Kiler
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    Default Re: How to speed up the blending/curing process of a fragrance

    140F degrees may not be harmful,... but less temp would likely be better...

    I only heat what materials need it, all by themselves, and try not to heat more than I need to dissolve something.
    I'm on the fence if 60C/140F is too hot, but it wouldn't be my choice to heat all of my fragrance to this temp.

    PK
    Paul Kiler
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    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  22. #22

    Default Re: How to speed up the blending/curing process of a fragrance

    I've been trying this lately, and it seems to be dampening or outright killing off the top notes. The projection also seems to be a lot less than it otherwise might have been, considering some of the materials I'm using.

    Has anyone else noticed this? I must be doing something wrong,

  23. #23

    Default Re: How to speed up the blending/curing process of a fragrance

    I avoid exceeding 50 C for extended periods, or 60 C for short periods.

    Different chemicals are different. Some are stable to very high temperatures, others not. Over many years I've seen time periods such as 30 minutes at 70 C degrade various things too many times to have any confidence in a complex unknown mixture (unknown in terms of all the specific molecules involved, or unknown in terms of experience) being stable for an extended period at temperatures approaching that. So as a rule of thumb I limit to 50 C.

    (EDIT: By the above I mean time periods such as 12 hours, or some materials where necessary a couple of days, not months on end.)

    I'd have concern over the sonication because if the bath is at 60 C, then that's the minimum temperature the molecules are exposed to. If it were also the maximum and it were for a short period of time, probably okay, but it won't be the maximum. Sonication will generate very high local temperatures.

    I've used it with synthetics where I had confidence in the stability of the materials but would question it for complex mixtures.
    Last edited by Bill Roberts; 8th April 2015 at 04:16 PM.

  24. #24

    Default Re: How to speed up the blending/curing process of a fragrance

    Quote Originally Posted by otherminion View Post
    Wow... you guys haven't caught on over on these forums yet. Guess perfumers aren't as creative as e-juice makers.
    Anyone who pops up on a forum for the first time with an ill-considered insult is best not taken too seriously.

    Quote Originally Posted by knaqsim View Post
    contacted my fragrance supplier and he said that heating the perfume may risk to change the fragrance at all and make perfume useless.
    any expert review of otherminion`s experiment ???
    Many perfumery materials are damaged from an olfactory point of view by heat and still more will be converted into allergens as a result of the accelerated oxidation. I recommended gentle warmth, not heat and, if you check my blog on the subject of storing perfumes, from about 3 years ago you’ll see that standard industry practice is to limit the temperature to below 40 centigrade even for stress-testing fine fragrances (higher temperatures might well be a appropriate for particular special fragrances that have to deal with high temperatures in use of course). I also give a set of standardised equivalences and a link to the more general law on which those ideas are based.
    ďA person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person
    ― Dave Barry

    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Iím happy to quote: if you want free advice, thatís what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  25. #25

    Default Re: How to speed up the blending/curing process of a fragrance

    Yes, Telmarin. I have the same problems. There are two easy solutions to this. The first works best with solid, crystalline-like molecules such as Ambrox DL, Exaltolide, Vanilla CO2, etc. You can scrape these materials and weigh the pieces to dilute with alcohol as you would with resonoids. I find this to be the best way to keep the performance of the material at an optimal level. Lowering the temperature of the material is recommended to prevent it from melting as you are weighing it.

    I prefer to freeze (store material at room temperature, freeze when preparing for dilution) molasses-like materials (Hay Absolute, Galaxolide, etc.) over gentle heating to keep performance. This also limits the amount of waste trying to add these products to the bottles at room temperature with pipettes. Most of the material gets stuck in the pipette. For the crystalline solids, refrigeration is fine, but you may also freeze them to further reduce the likelihood of melting.

    Another, less preferred option is to slowly heat your material only one time and keep it in a dilution. This limits the amount of times your material is exposed to heat, but it also means you will have a weaker product than the concentrate. The first method is the method I would recommend using as you can keep using the pure concentrate.

    You should be composing with your materials at either 5% or 10% (lower if need be) dilutions in EtOH.

  26. #26
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    Default Re: How to speed up the blending/curing process of a fragrance

    tried to heat at 30+ grade celcius. please dont do it. perfume started smell completely different (bad).

  27. #27
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    Default Re: How to speed up the blending/curing process of a fragrance

    Hi guys.. long time no post.

    I've been thinking about how to speed up the aging process too.

    Essentially by heating, you are speeding up the main (maybe only) chemical process involved in aging: oxidation.

    Ideally though we would have a way to speed the process without heating, and without adding an oxidation agent that would stay in the perfume.

    Does anyone here have experience in using an oxidation agent that is adsorbed onto the surface of a solid substrate?

    I might research this since it's probably the way to go!

  28. #28
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    Default Re: How to speed up the blending/curing process of a fragrance

    A concept, hereby and forthwith in the public domain (unless a patent already exists somewhere):

    - Stationary phase, preferably a plate with high surface area
    - Plate covered in metal oxide, preferably iron oxide, or another suitable oxidation catalyst
    - The plate can be heated
    - A sprayer, with a continuous spray of fragrance material directed at the top of the plate
    - A pump to collect material from base of the plate and send it back to the sprayer
    - A containment system for the above to prevent evaporation

    I'm confident that with the right selection of catalyst, this will increase aging speed dramatically.

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