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  1. #1

    Default Oakmoss completely banned by IFRA

    The German online community www.parfumo.de still tries to submit a petition to the EU.

    Are there any possibilites to protest against the regulation from the BNs standpoint?

    This regulation is ridiculous.

    Without Oakmoss, many fragrances could be destroyed again (chanel No.19, Eau Sauvage, Aventus etc.).

    If this online community can do something, let me hear.

    Thanks.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Oakmoss completely banned by IFRA

    The industry is working on a synthetic substitute, I believe Guerlain are leading the way in this.

    But yes Oakmoss makes such a big difference in the quality of fragrances. You only have to test out the great fragrances from days gone by and compare them to today's offerings to see this.

  3. #3
    DuNezDeBuzier's Avatar
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    Default Re: Oakmoss completely banned by IFRA

    Hmmm... last I heard IFRA restricts to .1% for category 4, not prohibits, the use of oakmoss extracts (see 43rd Amendment - IFRA Standards). If you have something more recent and authoritative from IFRA, please share.

    Last I heard EU regulations require listing/labeling if certain threshold levels are met and only if those ingredients are included within a fragrance; no restriction or prohibition... rather merely a labeling/disclosure requirement. I understand there maybe 26 such identified ingredients, one of which is oakmoss (evernia prunastri). If you have a different understanding, please share.
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    Default Re: Oakmoss completely banned by IFRA

    What seems to be the problem with this ingredient?

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    Super Member Beftus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Oakmoss completely banned by IFRA

    Allergic reactions.
    by the time you can afford good speakers, you can't hear the difference

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    DuNezDeBuzier's Avatar
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    Default Re: Oakmoss completely banned by IFRA

    Not long ago I attempted an internet search on the efforts of any grassroots campaigns on the oakmoss v. IFRA / EU matter. I did not find much I'd consider noteworthy other than the collaborative efforts of Cropwatch/Tony Burfield and Anya McCoy of Anya's Gardens Perfumes. I found the following links to be some rather interesting reads:

    http://www.cropwatch.org/treemossreg.pdf
    http://www.cropwatch.org/Oakmoss%20Biblio%20v1.10.pdf
    http://www.cropwatch.org/oakmossbib.htm
    http://www.leffingwell.com/Cropwatch...0Allergens.pdf
    http://anyasgarden.com/blog/category/cropwatch/

    If you read into any of the detail above, you'll soon see that the effort was about the use of natural ingredients in perfumery and not just oakmoss. The following is my vast generalization. I offer it up in order to hopefully push the discussion forward. I know Ms. McCoy is a BNr; her or anyone else's detail or correction would be appreciated.

    Anyway, it seems their effort grew legs in the 2007-2010 timeframe culminating with Mr. Burfield gaining audience before the relevant EU regulatory committee. I believe they basically heard him out and, in the end, did not bend much, if at all. It appeared that both parties more or less agreed to disagree and that is where it all ended... with a big whimper. I believe Mr. Burfield accepted a job/position elsewhere soon after and the whole effort then apparently lost its steam.

    So... re the OP, perhaps you might consider contacting either of the above. They might provide some useful advice that'll help you in your effort.
    Last edited by DuNezDeBuzier; 18th January 2014 at 03:50 PM.
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    Default Re: Oakmoss completely banned by IFRA

    Right, it's an endangered substance, basically. That's really it. Plus, it's expensive, that's my guess. I think the perfume companies prefer to use cheap substitutes anyway.

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    Default Re: Oakmoss completely banned by IFRA

    It seems that there are ways around it if companies really want to take the time and effort. I read on Grain de Musc that the Mitsouko batches from 2013 are very good, better than in many years, because Thierry Wasser has worked diligently to find the right ingredients in the best quality to restore it.
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    There is no cure for curiosity."
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    DuNezDeBuzier's Avatar
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    Default Re: Oakmoss completely banned by IFRA

    Quote Originally Posted by kumquat View Post
    Right, it's an endangered substance, basically. That's really it. Plus, it's expensive, that's my guess.
    Nah, it's all about skin sensitivity. From this good 2011 Wired article "Engineering Replacements for Essential Perfume Ingredients":
    "Why go to such lengths to replace this cornerstone of perfumery, a natural substance that is plentiful in the wild and available for just pennies an ounce?"
    Last edited by DuNezDeBuzier; 18th January 2014 at 05:16 PM.
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    Default Re: Oakmoss completely banned by IFRA

    Should we start stockpiling favourite scents that use this?!

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    Default Re: Oakmoss completely banned by IFRA

    Quote Originally Posted by DuNezDeBuzier View Post
    Nah, it's all about skin sensitivity. From this good 2011 Wired article "Engineering Replacements for Essential Perfume Ingredients":
    "Why go to such lengths to replace this cornerstone of perfumery, a natural substance that is plentiful in the wild and available for just pennies an ounce?"
    Who are they putting it on- infants?

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    Default Re: Oakmoss completely banned by IFRA

    Quote Originally Posted by bigbloke View Post
    Should we start stockpiling favourite scents that use this?!
    I am and do. I have quite a stash. It's never bothered me in the least. Talk about a tempest in a teapot!

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    Default Re: Oakmoss completely banned by IFRA

    Read up on the Research Institute for Fragrance Materials; their test results are used by IFRA in forming restrictions or outright prohibitions. Digging into the 'publications' area of RIFM's site unveils plenty of opportunity to read about the clinical process... e.g. Regulatory Toxicology and Pharmacology - Official Journal of the International Society, volume 52, number 1, October 2008 contains a paper entitled "The Research Institute for Fragrance Materials' human repeated insult patch test protocol" indicating one of the criteria for test subjects is that they be between the ages of 18 and 70... so no, no infants are used.
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    Default Re: Oakmoss completely banned by IFRA

    I get a clue from "repeated insult". Holy cow! It doesn't take much to make a scent smell good does it? How much are they putting on skin and how often? The whole thing is so skewed. Of course if they use high concentrations and put it on repeatedly, even skim milk would cause a rash.

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    Default Re: Oakmoss completely banned by IFRA

    Quote Originally Posted by furrypine View Post
    It seems that there are ways around it if companies really want to take the time and effort. I read on Grain de Musc that the Mitsouko batches from 2013 are very good, better than in many years, because Thierry Wasser has worked diligently to find the right ingredients in the best quality to restore it.
    That's a good thing because pretty soon they're going to have a hard time selling this stuff.

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    Default Re: Oakmoss completely banned by IFRA

    Quote Originally Posted by kumquat View Post
    ...How much are they putting on skin and how often? The whole thing is so skewed. Of course if they use high concentrations and put it on repeatedly, even skim milk would cause a rash.
    Since you asked... (as taken from the patch test protocol, cited above)

    2.2. Test articles
    The amount of test article applied should be expressed as the quantity of chemical per unit area of the skin, lg/cm2, and as a percentage. A vehicle that contains ethanol (EtOH) must be used to dilute the test article. The preferred vehicle of RIFM is 75% diethyl phthalate (DEP)/25% EtOH. In addition to the test article, the test subject should also be patched with the vehicle control and a saline control. It has been well documented that the vehicle in which an allergen is presented to the skin has an effect on its skin-sensitizing potency (Kligman, 1966; Lalko et al., 2004; Stotts and Ely, 1977). The DEP and EtOH combination in use by RIFM was selected because the majority of fragrance materials are soluble in DEP and EtOH, it is representative of the matrix often used in commercial products, and the 3:1 DEP/EtOH ratio was selected since on rare occasions increasing levels of EtOH can induce sensitization in humans (Stotts and Ely, 1977).

    2.3. Experimental design
    2.3.1. Induction phase
    The quantity of test article applied per test patch is 0.3 ml or 0.3 g. The test articles are dispensed onto 25 mm Hilltop Chamber patches (Hill Top Research, Miamiville, OH) and the patches are applied to normal skin between the left scapula and the spinal mid-line. Hill Top Chamber patches are composed of a flexible molded plastic chamber with a double rim that fits close to the skin and the chamber is lined with a nonwoven Webril pad. The patch is held in place with semiocclusive tape. Fresh patches of test article are prepared daily. Following application of test article to the patch, the patch must be applied to the skin a minimum of 15 min after preparation but not longer than 40 min after preparation. Sample preparation and volatilization times should be documented...
    ...Test article patch applications to the same patch site are generally made on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday for three consecutive weeks...
    ...A minimum of nine Induction patches are required in order to satisfactorily complete the Induction phase of the study.


    It goes on. There are apparently Challenge and Re-challenge phases for those sensitized in the Induction phase. Seems rather exhaustive to me. As it should be. And .3ml is far from overload imo.
    Last edited by DuNezDeBuzier; 18th January 2014 at 09:35 PM.
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    Default Re: Oakmoss completely banned by IFRA

    What do they use to make the patch stick? That's probably the irritant. I had to use patches for a while and they were a nightmare.

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    Default Re: Oakmoss completely banned by IFRA

    If the semiocclusive tape were the culprit then an individual/test subject would come off as sensitized to each and every material/test article tested on them, no? If it's one thing I've hoped to emphasize with the posts above, the RIFM process does not seem to be some back-room nuckle-headed approach. It's quite reasonable to assume RIFM has addressed the possibility that test subjects may be sensitive to the tape or any other outside agent rather than the article/material they are testing. They've been at this for decades.
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    Dependent danieq's Avatar
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    Default Re: Oakmoss completely banned by IFRA

    I wonder why they can't just use disclaimers, like cigarettes require. I.E 'This product may contain chemicals which cause allergic reactions. In the event of an allergic reaction, please seek medical attention, blah blah blah.

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    Default Re: Oakmoss completely banned by IFRA

    The other thing I wonder is; what constitutes 'a reaction'? Is it red bumps or light pink that you can barely see let alone feel? What skin types are these people? They must be super sensitive.

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    Default Re: Oakmoss completely banned by IFRA

    I don't know if that is true Kumquat. My hubs isn't, but he did recently discover that he's allergic to a particular scent. I won't say which, for fear IRFA will hear! So now I avoid scents heavy with that note when he's around. He's fine once it dries down, but in the opening it makes his throat hurt.

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    Default Re: Oakmoss completely banned by IFRA

    There are plenty of things that make me gag but the Perfume Police have always let them off with a wink and a nod.

    Just because some Boo Radley types who can't even tolerate sunshine can't wear perfume- no one else can either. It's so ridiculous. Aren't there actual problems involving chemicals that these scientists could be solving ?

    Another aspect that is unfair/inaccurate is; having a patch deprives the skin of air. If you just put a drop of the substance on skin as you would when wearing perfume and allow it to air dry, chances are there would be no ill effects.
    Last edited by kumquat; 19th January 2014 at 04:55 AM.

  23. #23

    Default Re: Oakmoss completely banned by IFRA

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hunter View Post
    But yes Oakmoss makes such a big difference in the quality of fragrances. You only have to test out the great fragrances from days gone by and compare them to today's offerings to see this.
    Very true
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    Super Member PEARL's Avatar
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    Default Re: Oakmoss completely banned by IFRA

    Quote Originally Posted by danieq View Post
    I wonder why they can't just use disclaimers, like cigarettes require. I.E 'This product may contain chemicals which cause allergic reactions. In the event of an allergic reaction, please seek medical attention, blah blah blah.
    Quote Originally Posted by kumquat View Post
    There are plenty of things that make me gag but the Perfume Police have always let them off with a wink and a nod.

    Just because some Boo Radley types who can't even tolerate sunshine can't wear perfume- no one else can either. It's so ridiculous. Aren't there actual problems involving chemicals that these scientists could be solving ?

    Another aspect that is unfair/inaccurate is; having a patch deprives the skin of air. If you just put a drop of the substance on skin as you would when wearing perfume and allow it to air dry, chances are there would be no ill effects.
    I tend to agree that there should be some type of disclaimer regarding fragrance ingredients and possible reactions, but the problem extends beyond just the wearer. The very nature of these fragrances is that the molecules become diffusive on skin and may offend someone in close proximity to the wearer. Just as certain pollens offend me during the season, there are two fragrance ingredients that offend me when they are dominant notes in a fragrance, the difference being that when the pollen count nears a certain number, I have meds that allow me to be proactive during the season, I have no way to prepare for being in proximity to someone else's fragrance. It's not fair to me as well, as the two ingredients are ones that I absolutely adore.

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    Default Re: Oakmoss completely banned by IFRA

    Ridiculous! Is there anything that someone isn't allergic to?

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    Default Re: Oakmoss completely banned by IFRA

    Quote Originally Posted by ScentFan View Post
    Ridiculous! Is there anything that someone isn't allergic to?
    I think that oxygen is unlikely to create an allergic reaction, but even that needs to be used in controlled quantities because it's toxic and explosive if the concentration is too high.

    If I've had dairy in my diet then having water in contact with my skin causes dermatitis, so clearly water isn't safe anywhere near any human beings ever, even in small quantities.

    Is it just me that feels rather panicky about the complete loss of oakmoss? That's the single biggest reason that I like perfume, after all.
    'I suggest we learn to love ourselves before it's made illegal.'

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    Default Re: Oakmoss completely banned by IFRA

    Oakmoss has not been banned but is one of a number of restricted materials, the permitted concentrations of which have been reduced over the years.

    The use of some has been so restricted that their removal would probably now have very little effect on many current formulations.

    I feel for those who have spent so may years training to compose fragrances and are doing their best in circumstances affected by both regulation and economic pressures.

    Signing petitions is probably a little futile at this juncture - in any case, petitions tend to bear far less weight than other forms of objection.

    The numbers signing any petition will be insignificant in terms of overall global sales.
    Last edited by lpp; 20th January 2014 at 08:53 AM.

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    Default Re: Oakmoss completely banned by IFRA

    I agree with you, lpp. Still, I do think to initiate a petition is an honourable effort although I also doubt that it will yield any result, even if successful. As DuNezDeBuzier already mentioned, the collaborative efforts of Cropwatch/Tony Burfield and Anya McCoy (Anya's Gardens Perfumes) grew legs in the 2007-2010 time frame, culminating with Mr. Burfield gaining audience before the relevant EU regulatory committee. Yet, in the end they basically heard him out and did not bend much, if at all.

    So, do we simply bemoan that upcoming legislation is likely to implement further restrictions, which are going to be relevant for every fragrance company (no matter if niche or designer) that is selling its products internationally? Just let peeps in the Commission do what they do - come up with, at times, disputable policies - and never even attempt to do something about it?
    Don't we live in a democracy and are, luckily, free to voice our stance? Sure, the individual may not be pivotal. Yet, I have learned that representatives tend to take letters from their constituents serious. That's why I believe an email template with good arguments as to why the SCCS's Opinion on fragrance allergens is no adequate basis for policy - which can be used by EU citizens to mail to their reps in Council & European Parliament - is more likely to have an impact. Particularly with regard to many MEPs having recently become quite keen to interpose their democratically legitimised authority towards the Commission - the body that was not impressed by Mr. Burfield's arguments - I am convinced that this is the only option we have to put a stop to it. And, btw, to my knowledge Mr. Burfield also suggested that individual letters to MEPs and the pertinent representatives in the EU Council were the way to go.

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    Last edited by mia von trost; 22nd January 2014 at 06:55 AM.
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    Default Re: Oakmoss completely banned by IFRA

    Nice idea, Mia - it's a bit late imo but if anyone decides to campaign, please let us know how it turns out.

    It's not an issue that many U.K. M.E.P.'s would probably be interested in due to other, more pressing, issues over here and the probable unpopularity of associating themselves with a market perceived by many as a 'luxury' one - maybe it's different elsewhere?
    Last edited by lpp; 22nd January 2014 at 08:49 AM.

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    Basenotes Member mia von trost's Avatar
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    Default Re: Oakmoss completely banned by IFRA

    It is probably not different elsewhere. But eventually MEPs and EU Council will have to decide once the Commission propose legislation. I would much rather have the MEPs and pertinent Secretary of State in the EU Council know that a significant number of their constituents - assuming many would care to write such a letter - would not favour their passing it.
    Un parfum doit avant tout sent bon. - Guy Robert -

    On the EU's amendment to sharpen restrictions on fragrance allergens

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    Default Re: Oakmoss completely banned by IFRA

    As previously stated - those who wish to try to change things have every right to do so.

    I'm old enough to have grown a bit tired of pursuing lost causes but everyone is different, so please let us know how it turns out.

    This is a perfume website and political discussions are a bit off-topic here.

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    Default Re: Oakmoss completely banned by IFRA

    Quote Originally Posted by lpp View Post
    As previously stated - those who wish to try to change things have every right to do so.

    I'm old enough to have grown a bit tired of pursuing lost causes but everyone is different, so please let us know how it turns out.

    .
    It may be an honorable thing to voice a protest ... "danger to perfumes (works of art)" ... but it will have little impact nor result.
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    Default Re: Oakmoss completely banned by IFRA

    Some people are allergy-prone to peanuts and peanut dust but that doesn't stop me from eating them wherever I want so why should some perfume chemicals be restricted if others may be affected by them. Here in America, we have cigarettes being banned everywhere you turn because the smoke could affect others while at the same time we are legalizing marijuana. This shit makes no sense. This is just another example of 'the machine' steamrolling society. This stupid day and age has regulations for everything.

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    Default Re: Oakmoss completely banned by IFRA

    Quote Originally Posted by mossyoakpenn View Post
    Some people are allergy-prone to peanuts and peanut dust but that doesn't stop me from eating them wherever I want so why should some perfume chemicals be restricted if others may be affected by them. Here in America, we have cigarettes being banned everywhere you turn because the smoke could affect others while at the same time we are legalizing marijuana. This shit makes no sense. This is just another example of 'the machine' steamrolling society. This stupid day and age has regulations for everything.
    no kidding. They should outlaw fat in ALL foods. We KNOW it causes obesity and heart disease, yadda yadda... Not to mention sugar. Plus the evil artificial ingredients used as preservatives and sweeteners. And pesticides! Come on!

  35. #35

    Default Re: Oakmoss completely banned by IFRA

    Banning of natural substances is a lobby of the big chemical companies to support new products (chemicals); this is just the same with pharmaceutical industry where big pharma companies lobby against claims of natural medicines and herbs as unscientific but push their synthetic drugs for the betterment of mankind.

    crazy times we live....

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    Default Re: Oakmoss completely banned by IFRA

    Quote Originally Posted by happyscent View Post
    Banning of natural substances is a lobby of the big chemical companies to support new products (chemicals); this is just the same with pharmaceutical industry where big pharma companies lobby against claims of natural medicines and herbs as unscientific but push their synthetic drugs for the betterment of mankind.

    crazy times we live....
    Yes. Crazy times indeed.

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    Default Re: Oakmoss completely banned by IFRA

    As there doesn't appear to be any reason for leaving this thread open it is being closed, particularly as the title is potentially misleading to people searching threads here.
    Last edited by lpp; 23rd January 2014 at 12:56 PM.

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