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  1. #31

    Default Re: Help with cestrum accord

    Made my usual mess -
    This was for David, following a talk we had :
    I will follow your suggestion to try hexyl cin. ald. , though I realized that what I'm
    targeting in the cestrum smells isn't the jasmine part (it doesn't really smell like jasmine
    anyhow..).
    And this was just a general remark/question :
    This also reminds me, I tried figuring out what benzyl salicylate does by adding around
    1/10 of it to ylang.. but I didn't notice anything.. Still a mystery component to me.. Should
    I try it at 50%? Or with something else?

  2. #32

    Default Re: Help with cestrum accord

    Nizan I cannot help you with Benzyl Salicylate; on a smelling strip this chemical is odourless to me. However, I can smell its effect in a fragrance. I used Benzyl Salicylate as a Back note material. It is a fixative and provided a light floral quality which pervades the entire composition. Slapping some into a sample of Ylang isn't necessarily the best way of using it.

  3. #33

    Default Re: Help with cestrum accord

    Will its effect be more clear in a mix of few chems instead of a natural? I think I sensed
    some cloying sweetness when I added it - it was similar to the effect methyl salicylate
    adds, but much gentles and more woody..

  4. #34
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    Default Re: Help with cestrum accord

    Quote Originally Posted by David Ruskin View Post
    I was addressing both Nizan (description of Jasmone) and you, Justin ( your comments about you disliking lots of smells on their own). I made no comment about using Schiff's Bases in Nizan's perfume.
    Who's on first? Hahaha,
    David, I was commenting on Nizan's post #28 where he says "Next, I will follow your suggestion to try hexyl cin. ald. " I don't remember anyone suggesting Hexyl Cin Ald for any reason so I was asking him if he was addressing you or me.
    Justin E. Beasley

  5. #35
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    Default Re: Help with cestrum accord

    Goodscents lists Benz. Salic. as balsam, clean, herbal, oily, sweet. I used it in an orris accord and thought it was making it powdery and soapy, looks as though I thought wrong. I'll have to rethink the cyclamen aldehyde instead...
    Last edited by JEBeasley; 9th February 2014 at 09:23 PM.
    Justin E. Beasley

  6. #36

    Default Re: Help with cestrum accord

    Quote Originally Posted by JEBeasley View Post
    Goodscents lists Benz. Salic. as balsam, clean, herbal, oily, sweet. I used it in an orris accord and thought it was making it powdery and soapy, looks as though I thought wrong. I'll have to rethink the cyclamen aldehyde instead...
    If you thought that Benzyl Salicylate was having this effect, why are you wrong? If that is what it smelled like to you, that is what it smelled like.

  7. #37

    Default Re: Help with cestrum accord

    Quote Originally Posted by JEBeasley View Post
    Who's on first? Hahaha,
    David, I was commenting on Nizan's post #28 where he says "Next, I will follow your suggestion to try hexyl cin. ald. " I don't remember anyone suggesting Hexyl Cin Ald for any reason so I was asking him if he was addressing you or me.
    The HCA ref was from a private e-mail Nizan sent me. I can understand the confusion.

  8. #38

    Default Re: Help with cestrum accord

    Quote Originally Posted by David Ruskin View Post
    If you thought that Benzyl Salicylate was having this effect, why are you wrong? If that is what it smelled like to you, that is what it smelled like.
    Seems like this chem is the twilight zone of olfaction.. I will give it a few more attempts with
    something not floral to see if it indeed makes it floral..

  9. #39

    Default Re: Help with cestrum accord

    I realized I might be going at this the wrong way.. I think I need a method,
    otherwise I'll be chasing my tail for a long time. If anyone has some experience
    with recreating some flowers from GC (i.e. without some initial formula), or
    some ideas, I'd be grateful for some insights..
    My thoughts were that maybe I should try to put what I think to be the main
    constituents (from smelling and from GC) on smelling strips, and just fan
    them to try to determine what is important and what isn't? Though there's
    probably some balance between the ingredients that this method won't be
    able to recreate, so I might never come close to the scent I'm after..
    Should I just keep mixing in bottles?
    Should I try reverse engineer quantities from GC + vapor pressure?

    Argh.

  10. #40

    Default Re: Help with cestrum accord

    Quote Originally Posted by Nizan View Post
    I realized I might be going at this the wrong way.. I think I need a method,
    otherwise I'll be chasing my tail for a long time. If anyone has some experience
    with recreating some flowers from GC (i.e. without some initial formula), or
    some ideas, I'd be grateful for some insights..
    My thoughts were that maybe I should try to put what I think to be the main
    constituents (from smelling and from GC) on smelling strips, and just fan
    them to try to determine what is important and what isn't? Though there's
    probably some balance between the ingredients that this method won't be
    able to recreate, so I might never come close to the scent I'm after..
    Should I just keep mixing in bottles?
    Should I try reverse engineer quantities from GC + vapor pressure?

    Argh.
    My method to make an accord based on substance XYZ is to smell the substance a lot, a whole lot. You're smelling it to study it; to analyze it. Then, when you smell it, take as detailed notes as possible. The next time you smell it, take more notes, etc. then, when you have a page full of notes in front of you describing the smell, you should be able to think of lots of things to make the accord. As a final step, combine that with the GC-MS data and refine your approach. But for me, I like to base everything on my nose at first, to make use of the unique contribution I might be able to make to making an XYZ accord. Keep a positive attitude and act as if you can recreate the smell exactly just from smelling it and mixing fragrance ingredients. You can't, of course, but the confidence and positive attitude will make you make progress you might not have otherwise. Eventually when you get your ingredients, pair each one with the original smell of interest to understand all those individual relationships. Combine it physically, or just hold it next to the thing you are smelling. Sometimes something seems like it would be ideal until you pair it with the thing of interest and it doesn't enhance anything (that's been happening a lot with vertofix for me lately, where it seems like the perfect ingredient on paper). So you eliminate or drastically reduce that ingredient. Sometimes you combine two things and find they enhance each other, while not interfering at all. Those ingredients are relative winners.
    Last edited by DrSmellThis; 12th February 2014 at 07:11 PM.

  11. #41

    Default Re: Help with cestrum accord

    Thanks! Great advice!

    I think I'll to get some of the absolute, as the last flowers are dying now and
    it'll probably be a while till a new round comes out. Should have taken those
    notes when it was flowering..

  12. #42

    Red face Re: Help with cestrum accord

    Probably premature, but this is the closest I got so far.. Will probably change when it matures..
    I'm VERY open to suggestions

    2 Ethyl Linalool 5%
    3 Phenyl Acetaldehyde 1%
    1 Eugenol 1%
    3 Indole 0.2%
    3 CIS Jasmone 0.5%
    1 Benzaldehyde 1%
    1 Hedione 0.1% (kind of made everything a bit too jasmine.. I don't get this chemical)
    2 Benzyl Alcohol 10%
    Some Cetyl Alcohol

  13. #43
    Paul Kiler
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    Default Re: Help with cestrum accord

    *THIS* formula is easier to understand:

    20 Benzyl Alcohol
    10 Ethyl Linalool
    3 Phenyl Acetaldehyde
    1 Eugenol
    1 Benzaldehyde
    1 Hedione
    6 Indole 10%
    ?? Alcohol C-16

    But still has a hole of an unknown Qty...

    PK
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  14. #44

    Default Re: Help with cestrum accord

    Still experimenting with the cetyl.. It made everything a bit "bland".. Regardless of the scaling, do you think I'm working too diluted?
    Btw, the Hedione is 0.1 in this formula, and the Jasmone should be 3 time 50%.. I'm not sure tif I should tinker with it to make it more complex (with naturals and more variation..).
    Thanks

  15. #45

    Default Re: Help with cestrum accord

    Quote Originally Posted by Nizan View Post
    Thanks! Great advice!

    I think I'll to get some of the absolute, as the last flowers are dying now and
    it'll probably be a while till a new round comes out. Should have taken those
    notes when it was flowering..
    Should have taken good advice when it was given.

  16. #46

    Default Re: Help with cestrum accord

    It was given after they wilted (or did you .. And the absolute doesn't smell like the flower at all.
    Or did you mean our PM correspondence?
    Anyhow, now that I have something, I can start comparing when the flowers when/if the bloom..

  17. #47

    Default Re: Help with cestrum accord

    What I meant was… I have many, many times repeated how important it is to make notes when you are smelling things. When you first smell an ingredient, when you are creating a fragrance or when, as in your case, you are smelling something with an aim to match it. You have been trying to mach the smell of this particular flower for quite some time, and it is only now when the flowers have faded that you tell us you haven't made any notes. "Should have taken those notes when it was flowering". Words fail me.

  18. #48

    Default Re: Help with cestrum accord

    That's the nature of words.. I guess I'm slow to acquire good habits. Though I'm taking notes when mixing and learning now chemicals I'll get a second chance soon, hopefully..

  19. #49

    Default Re: Help with cestrum accord

    Now that some flowers are in bloom, I realize I missed skme important aspects.. The headspace said there was phenol, borneol and cineole, and now I see that the flower indeed smells quite green in addition to giving out iso eugenol..
    Back to endless mixing..

    Which chemicals could be a good substitute for phenol? P- or m- cresol?

    Thanks!

  20. #50
    Paul Kiler
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    Default Re: Help with cestrum accord

    Saw a pic for you today, from Juan Perez Perfumer:

    https://scontent-b-lax.xx.fbcdn.net/...49551175_o.jpg

    PK
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  21. #51

    Default Re: Help with cestrum accord

    Couldn't find any mention of it when Googling him..
    For some reason mine aren't giving as many flowers as in that picture.. I think I should have done more pruning..

    On the other hand, these babies exploded last couple of weeks.. When I was a teenager I used to call them Cacharel Pour Homme..
    IMG_20140427_210056.jpg

  22. #52

    Default Re: Help with cestrum accord

    Nizan, that's Trachelospermum jasminoides.
    Last edited by islearom; 27th April 2014 at 09:20 PM.

  23. #53
    Paul Kiler
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    Default Re: Help with cestrum accord

    Quote Originally Posted by Nizan View Post
    When I was a teenager I used to call them Cacharel Pour Homme..
    We commonly call those Star Jasmine here in So. California. They are all over here...

    PK
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  24. #54

    Default Re: Help with cestrum accord

    Paul, I tend to have a rough time with common names for botanicals as they seem to add yet more confusion than the Latin names already do. Different names in different locations for the same plant, as evidenced by the So. Ca. name, vs. the name Nizan uses, and probably a few dozen more names for the same thing in a few dozen other locations around the world.

  25. #55

    Default Re: Help with cestrum accord

    Hunting in my book for you. Just jotting everything I find and very out of context. I can photo the whole pages if you want them.

    J. odoratissimum oil found to contain
    Linalol 6%
    Linalyl Acetate 6%
    Benzyl Acetate 1.6%
    Indole + Methyl anthranilate 10%
    Diterpene or sesquiterpene alcohol 57%
    Jasmone 0

    another analysis by Hesse and Muller in 1899 with a probable composition from an otto found to contain
    Benzyl Acetate 65%
    Linalol 15.5%
    Linalyl Acetate 7.5%
    Benzyl alcohol 6%
    other bodies 5.5%

    unidentified bodies investigated later and among them were
    indole 2.5%
    Jasmone 3%
    Methyl anthranilate 0.5%
    other bodies identified include
    p-cresol and geraniol
    (indole only found by enfleurage not the flower)

    Later a mention of a German patent for the inclusion of
    Benzyl acetone
    Phenyl ethyl-dimenthyl-carbinol
    Phenyl ethyl-methyl-ethyl-carbinol
    Benzyl isopropyl alcohol

    there are ten pages about jasmine.
    Currently wearing: Montecristo by Masque

  26. #56

    Default Re: Help with cestrum accord

    Well, I don't want to suggest that I know who's on first, but I can definitely say that what's on second.

    Cestrum nocturnum ("Night Blooming Jasmine") is not really a "Jasmine", it is a member of the Nightshade (Solanaceae) family (as is tomato, green pepper, tobacco, belladonna, etc.). Trachelospermum jasminoides is in the Apocynaceae (as is Plumeria/Frangipani, and many other fragrant tropicals), and Jasminum (as in J. sambac or J. grandiflorum, etc.) is of the Olive family (Oleaceae).

    Interesting thing about J. odoratissimum, in addition to its' strong scent, is that it is the only true Jasmine with yellow colored flowers (if there is yet a second Jasmine with yellow flowers, someone will please correct me on this...though this will probably be unnecessary as this is the internet and I just said it, so therefore it has to be true).
    Last edited by islearom; 27th April 2014 at 10:43 PM.

  27. #57

    Default Re: Help with cestrum accord

    I shall have another look in my book and see if there is anything else that may be relevant.

    I used to have one of those yellow jasmine plants and it was stunning. It had variegated leaves. The people who bought our house just dug it up and threw it away. I wish I had taken a cutting with me.
    Currently wearing: Montecristo by Masque

  28. #58

    Default Re: Help with cestrum accord

    My book doesn't have a Frangipani. i will look more tomorrow as it has gone past midnight here.
    Currently wearing: Montecristo by Masque

  29. #59

    Default Re: Help with cestrum accord

    Your mention of the variegated yellow jasmine being thrown out reminded me of a beautiful huge yellow plumeria in the front yard of the next door neighbor of a friend. I had admired the tree for the longest time, desiring just a single cutting of it to root in the yard at my current residence, but do not personally know the neighbors of the friend and felt it would be too awkward to knock at the door and ask if I could take a piece, fearing they might think that my doing so would disfigure the tree. It wouldn't have, but anyway, about a year ago, I noticed that the entire tree was removed. The yellow has the nicest scent, to my taste, of all the Frangipanis. I wish I had knocked on the door and asked. I imagine they had it removed as they are rather odd looking for about half of each year, when they have no leaves or flowers.

  30. #60

    Default Re: Help with cestrum accord

    Quote Originally Posted by islearom View Post
    Well, I don't want to suggest that I know who's on first, but I can definitely say that what's on second.

    Cestrum nocturnum ("Night Blooming Jasmine") is not really a "Jasmine", it is a member of the Nightshade (Solanaceae) family (as is tomato, green pepper, tobacco, belladonna, etc.). Trachelospermum jasminoides is in the Apocynaceae (as is Plumeria/Frangipani, and many other fragrant tropicals), and Jasminum (as in J. sambac or J. grandiflorum, etc.) is of the Olive family (Oleaceae).

    Interesting thing about J. odoratissimum, in addition to its' strong scent, is that it is the only true Jasmine with yellow colored flowers (if there is yet a second Jasmine with yellow flowers, someone will please correct me on this...though this will probably be unnecessary as this is the internet and I just said it, so therefore it has to be true).
    Just to be pernickety ; Jasminium nudiflorum winter flowering Jasmin has yellow flowers; but no smell.

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