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  1. #61

    Default Re: Anyone has experience with Perfumer's Apprentice GC?

    Ofcourse not.. but we seem to be able to classify plants given pretty large variations. I don't get it.
    At some point I was starting to think that we might be sensing things that we can't smell consciously,
    but this can't really be backed up by anything, so I let go of that thought

  2. #62

    Default Re: Anyone has experience with Perfumer's Apprentice GC?

    GC/MS analysis is only as good as the machine used, and the analyst who interprets the results. Some chemicals are present in an Essential Oil or a Fragrance at such low levels that the detector used in the analysis cannot "see"it. There a very strong smelling chemicals which are present at very low levels that are important for the overall smell, but cannot be detected unless specifically looked for. The GC traces of Bergamot and Petitgrain are fairly similar; indeed adding 10.0% Petitgrain to Bergamot will not alter the GC trace significantly. However, the odour of Petitgrain and Bergamot are vastly different; mainly due to the presence of Pyrazines in the Petitgrain. Very strong smelling, present at very low levels. There is a technique ( called Smelling GC) where one can smell each chemical as it is separated by GC. Our noses are not very good at measuring how much is there, but they are very good at detecting what is there.

    If your two analyses of the same sample show such different results I would question the machine or the analyst. You are sure that exactly the same sample gave two such different results?
    Last edited by David Ruskin; 26th February 2014 at 08:23 AM.

  3. #63

    Default Re: Anyone has experience with Perfumer's Apprentice GC?

    Very informative thread, despite my best efforts to derail it.

  4. #64

    Default Re: Anyone has experience with Perfumer's Apprentice GC?

    I'm pretty sure these are not the same samples.. My info is from various GC's I found online. I'm starting to suspect this plant smells very differently in different places.. For example someone posted a formula on the perfume making group which seems much too jasminy than what I smell from plants here.. And no eugenol there too..

  5. #65

    Default Re: Anyone has experience with Perfumer's Apprentice GC?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nizan View Post
    I'm pretty sure these are not the same samples.. My info is from various GC's I found online. I'm starting to suspect this plant smells very differently in different places.. For example someone posted a formula on the perfume making group which seems much too jasminy than what I smell from plants here.. And no eugenol there too..
    But before you said that it was the same sample you had analysed at two different times!! It really does get so confusing at times!

    I don't even know now what it is you are analysing; is it a sample of Essential Oil or a finished fragrance?

  6. #66

    Default Re: Anyone has experience with Perfumer's Apprentice GC?

    Ho. I get the confusion.
    I was going to do a GC of a fragrance (if I like it - still waiting for it to arrive).
    It was supposed to smell like cestrum.
    I was also looking at other GCs of cestrum - they dissolve it with different
    solvents in different papers. With the eugenol - I was referring to the GCs
    I found online.
    Sorry

  7. #67

    Default Re: Anyone has experience with Perfumer's Apprentice GC?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nizan View Post
    I think I might be able to get a (vintage) perfume similar to the flower I'm after -
    anyone has any experience with PA's GC? How reliable is it? How do you
    quantify the reliability of GC's results anyhow, especially of perfumes, as I know
    plants tend to vary in contents quite considerably..
    I had a fragrance GC'd by Perfumers Apprentice. It was Charles of the Ritz (1977) and I was very very happy with the results. The synthetic components were all identified and quantified as well as the solvent (DEP). There were a few naturals in there she wasn't able to identify. I figured out one or two but since they weren't more than 1.5% of the total formula the result was spot on even if I guessed wrong. Really very satisfied. And my mom will be as well when she smells it!

  8. #68

    Default Re: Anyone has experience with Perfumer's Apprentice GC?

    Am I allowed to ask: How much does Perfumer's Apprentice charge for a GCMS analysis? I went to their site and there's a somewhat vague number of $100 shown. Is that what you people paid? i.e. those participating in this discussion that mentioned they had analyses done by PA.

    Is $100 the going rate? Is it a bargain? Is there any place where it can be done cheaper?

  9. #69

    Default Re: Anyone has experience with Perfumer's Apprentice GC?

    Quote Originally Posted by bshell View Post
    Am I allowed to ask: How much does Perfumer's Apprentice charge for a GCMS analysis? I went to their site and there's a somewhat vague number of $100 shown. Is that what you people paid? i.e. those participating in this discussion that mentioned they had analyses done by PA.

    Is $100 the going rate? Is it a bargain? Is there any place where it can be done cheaper?
    Yes the complete analysis was 100 dollars. I don't know if it's a bargain or not because I don't know of another place an amatuer can get it done. I guess technically it's 100 dollars PLUS you have to ship them the sample. In my case it was 106 dollars.

  10. #70

    Default Re: Anyone has experience with Perfumer's Apprentice GC?

    I think I can find an analysis for a few dollars cheaper. But I'm not going to worry about 5 or 10 dollars, when I can patronize one of my main suppliers.

    This is the bare minimum to pay for an analysis. I've paid 2-3X that as well for more time taken for their work, and more Identity of Naturals done.

    Don't really count on Linda to ID naturals for you at that price. And the resolution she will give you is at 0.1%
    If you want higher resolution, you should probably find someone else to do it and also pay much more for it.

    I've had her do a more than a dozen for me.

    PK
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  11. #71

    Default Re: Anyone has experience with Perfumer's Apprentice GC?

    Unfortunately the vintage perfume I thought I won on that bid was an empty bottle The add was pretty obscure about it.

  12. #72

    Default Re: Anyone has experience with Perfumer's Apprentice GC?

    And if i don't have a GC analysis, is there any method to come close to the idea of the fragrance you want but cannot find anymore?
    I love Guerlain Apres L'Ondee Pure Parfum and i have a tiny 3ml sample of it. I always wondered if i could be able to do something similar to it (because i'm pretty sure that i wouldn't be able to replicate it).

  13. #73

    Default Re: Anyone has experience with Perfumer's Apprentice GC?

    Rickbr, My advice is get it analyzed, and start from there...

    Undoubtedly, you'll learn a lot through the whole process.

    PK
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  14. #74

    Default Re: Anyone has experience with Perfumer's Apprentice GC?

    Paul, but do they do the analysis on small amounts? Because i have seen on a website offering the GC that they needed a good amount of the perfume to do it and i only have less than 3ml...

  15. #75

    Default Re: Anyone has experience with Perfumer's Apprentice GC?

    She only needs about 0.5ml, and could work with less even, 0.25ml could be OK too.

    For the 1924 Djedi test she ran for me, I gave her about 3-4mm tall of liquid in one of my 1ml vials. It amounts to just drops... not very much, because I had even MUCH less than you do...

    1924 Djedi Guerlain is probably about at least $200/ml so we didn't have much to begin with that we could spare.

    PK
    Last edited by pkiler; 10th April 2014 at 08:40 PM.
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  16. #76

    Default Re: Anyone has experience with Perfumer's Apprentice GC?

    So I guess a few ml of enfleurage in ethanol will be ok?
    Though I'm not sure if I should let the ethanol evaporate - won't it cause the more volatile components like Benzyl Acetate to evaporate as well?

  17. #77

    Default Re: Anyone has experience with Perfumer's Apprentice GC?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nizan View Post
    So I guess a few ml of enfleurage in ethanol will be ok?
    Though I'm not sure if I should let the ethanol evaporate - won't it cause the more volatile components like Benzyl Acetate to evaporate as well?
    Seems right, But last I knew, PA stopped making this service available.
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  18. #78

    Default Re: Anyone has experience with Perfumer's Apprentice GC?

    Sad.. Do you know why?
    Linda told me they might not be able to help me with this.. Do you know of any other labs that could help me?

  19. #79

    Default Re: Anyone has experience with Perfumer's Apprentice GC?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nizan View Post
    Sad.. Do you know why?
    Linda told me they might not be able to help me with this.. Do you know of any other labs that could help me?

    And you can't find *SOMETHING* in Israel?

    Tried Fruitarome or AROMOR and asked for vendors?

    There HAS to be something in Israel for you.
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  20. #80

    Default Re: Anyone has experience with Perfumer's Apprentice GC?

    Didn't think about it.. I will try. Maybe the people in the scent lab will be nice..

  21. #81

    Default Re: Anyone has experience with Perfumer's Apprentice GC?

    Try Michael Zviely's Company, He's brilliant!

    http://www.cathay-israel-chemistry.com/Contacts.html

    PK

    FOUND through a google search by the way, It's amazing what google can find...
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  22. #82

    Default Re: Anyone has experience with Perfumer's Apprentice GC?

    Hopefully one of these will answer, and won't ask for 400$ for this analysis..

  23. #83

    Default Re: Anyone has experience with Perfumer's Apprentice GC?

    Michael was VERY nice! I'm so happy now
    Although the whole thing is too expensive, I think I can do a headspace analysis for now,
    and only later decode it, with his help, or if someone here is willing - with theirs. Have you
    talked to him on doing a headspace on Tuberose? If I could get my hands on some plants
    maybe we can pull this off.
    (Not sure they sell them here, though if they grow in California, it should be easy to grow
    them in here).

  24. #84

    Default Re: Anyone has experience with Perfumer's Apprentice GC?

    There are a couple of tuberose headspace GC's published on the Essential Oils University website: http://www.essentialoils.org/eoudb/s...Bq%5D=tuberose

    You will probably need to create an account to view, but that is easy.

    I think you will find the information useful or even invaluable, but by itself insufficient, towards helping create your own base. In other words, cloning either of these, or a mix of the two reports, probably won't be too satisfactory. But the GC's can give you leads.

    The reasons for this include that a satisfactory formulation for a perfume will always have a much different balance than the headspace, and that the GC's for the headspace probably fail to include one or more compounds that are needed. For example, certainly the first GC of those two is sorely lacking.

  25. #85

    Default Re: Anyone has experience with Perfumer's Apprentice GC?

    Ho, I wasn't familiar with these.. But I bet Paul already knows those by heart

    But you gave me an idea - maybe EOU will help me funding this GC, since it doesn't appear anywhere.

  26. #86

    Default Re: Anyone has experience with Perfumer's Apprentice GC?

    I finally had to buy a Headspace of Tuberose, so now I have something to work from, and to work out...

    There are a few good labs in the USA that do good Headspace... But they are not particularly cheap.

    YAY!

    PK
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  27. #87

    Default Re: Anyone has experience with Perfumer's Apprentice GC?

    How much did you have to pay for it? I think the analysis here will be around 600-700 NIS,
    which is around 200$.

  28. #88

    Default Re: Anyone has experience with Perfumer's Apprentice GC?

    I'd like to know where to get headspace for that cheap... Headspace that I know of is $750 USD.

    PK
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  29. #89

    Default Re: Anyone has experience with Perfumer's Apprentice GC?

    Paul, as much as you do this, have you considered buying a machine and charging others for analyses to defray cost? $300, $500 and $750 a pop adds up pretty fast. Just a crazy idea...

  30. #90

    Default Re: Anyone has experience with Perfumer's Apprentice GC?

    Quote Originally Posted by DrSmellThis View Post
    Paul, as much as you do this, have you considered buying a machine and charging others for analyses to defray cost? $300, $500 and $750 a pop adds up pretty fast. Just a crazy idea...
    well, a USED machine I think is close to $10KUSD, probably more, then there's the ancillary materials/equipment. Then there's the Database needed, that a good one is $5K USD. Then there's the learning curve needed not only to operate the machine, but interpretation, and all the scientific background, plus the dedicated space necessary.

    With two small children, who I help with their schoolwork, a Wife seeking her Medical License, trying to provide for my family, not only do I not have the capital necessary, but the time is also a big problem. I'm much more happy to BUY the service AND their expertise, when needed.

    Yes, I CAN work on my car, but I'm happier to have a trained person do it for me instead, and apply my time and efforts elsewhere...

    :-)

    PK
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  31. #91

    Default Re: Anyone has experience with Perfumer's Apprentice GC?

    Paul - I'll let you know if the price here is cheaper..

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