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Thread: Good heliotope

  1. #1
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    Default Good heliotope

    Can anyone recommend a good heliotrope? Natural or synthetic is fine. I have tried the Save on Scents one, I like the smell, but it is weak even in their strongest concentration. Also tried Sun's Eye "pure oil" (diluted EO I guess?) which smelled too grassy/vegetal to me.

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    Super Member jsparla's Avatar
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    Default Re: Good heliotope

    I've used this one, and i'm particularly impressed by it's longevity; still smell it after 3 weeks on a blotter.
    http://www.creatingperfume.com/heliotropin.aspx

    Your'e welcome to visit my formulation blog, with a dozen of perfume formulations and accords to share!

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    Default Re: Good heliotope

    Quote Originally Posted by jsparla View Post
    I've used this one, and i'm particularly impressed by it's longevity; still smell it after 3 weeks on a blotter.
    http://www.creatingperfume.com/heliotropin.aspx
    This is the same one I have. The descriptors do it some justice and it seems pretty versatile but I've never experienced real heliotropin or even a heliotrope flower so I can't say how similar they are. Sometimes the replacer reminds me of a fruity-coconutty suntan lotion though, lol.
    Justin E. Beasley

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    Default Re: Good heliotope


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    Default Re: Good heliotope

    Anyone tried the heliotrope "fleuressence" from perfumer's world?

  6. #6

    Default Re: Good heliotope

    Does anyone know where to buy heliotropin? I know it's restricted but so are a lot of things and I was hoping that there were people still out there who sold it. I got mine from Vigon, but that was almost a year ago.

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    Default Re: Good heliotope

    I asked Perfumer's Apprentice if their "Heliotropin replacer 50%" was actually 50% heliotropin in a solvent of some sort. All they could tell me was that it contains heliotropin. Make of that what you will.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Good heliotope

    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade View Post
    I asked Perfumer's Apprentice if their "Heliotropin replacer 50%" was actually 50% heliotropin in a solvent of some sort. All they could tell me was that it contains heliotropin. Make of that what you will.
    Interesting. That was Chris' point, that you can sometimes get a supplier to mix it with something neutral, rendering it useless for making drugs. Then there should be no problem with buying it. I don't get why they wouldn't just admit that was the case, though, because my understanding is that that way is legal or without restriction?

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    Default Re: Good heliotope

    Can one get a sample of piperonal (~1ml) in the US, or is it that tightly controlled?

  10. #10

    Default Re: Good heliotope

    Quote Originally Posted by cuallito View Post
    Can one get a sample of piperonal (~1ml) in the US, or is it that tightly controlled?
    that is on the hit list over here......
    but you can file a dea paper and provide the usage and formula and then if approved you can purchase it and have it in your possession
    they really don't care about tiny amounts....
    but the they have your info on file which is what bugs me....

    heck, in a number of states you can't own a three neck flask!

  11. #11

    Default Re: Good heliotope

    Vigon lists 3 heliotropin including a "natural" heliotropin that's 10 times the cost of the synthetics, about $1400/kg for the natural. But if enough people went in on a kg… If we had 10 people who each threw in 140 dollars or so… They've given me heliotropin in the past--a 1 ounce sample--presumably not the natural stuff so I think I can get them sell it to me provided I buy a kilo. Maybe, maybe not.

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    Default Re: Good heliotope

    I might be interested....

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    Default Re: Good heliotope

    I wonder if there's much difference between natural/synthetic, especially for incense, which is what I'm playing around with. I mean, a molecule is a molecule?

  14. #14

    Default Re: Good heliotope

    I've sent a note to Vigon asking them for samples of each one before making the big buy. If the natural smells better (and I can't imagine a significant difference) than I'd want that.

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    Default Re: Good heliotope

    By the way, I replied to your PM!

  16. #16

    Default Re: Good heliotope

    Sometimes my pop-up blocker won't allow me to read private messages.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Good heliotope

    If you go Notifications (near the top) -> Inbox, you can see past PMs in the same window.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Good heliotope

    If you are looking to replace Heliotropine in a formula then Veratraldehyde is a fairly effective substitute.

    Also note that, although Heliotrope flowers are the source of the name the actual scent of those flowers does not contain Heliotropine, so it should be possible to recreate it without (though Iíve not attempted this).

    Iím also pretty certain that no natural extract of Heliotrope is currently available, though that might not be correct as Iím also pretty sure that at one time an absolute was made, so it may be that it still is and Iíve just not come across it. Iím almost certain you canít distill an essential oil from the flowers though.
    Chris Bartlett
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    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Iím happy to quote: if you want free advice, thatís what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Good heliotope

    Thanks Chris. What a can of worms. I asked Vigon for samples of all three of their versions (including the "natural" which is ten times the price of the "synthetic.") So I went to place an order for a kilo of heliotropin ex sassafras and they said I need a license from the DEA. The DEA needs me to have a license from the state. There are all sorts of rules--thickness of walls, alarms, safes etc--so I'm going to wait until I'm a bit more established before really going for it. There are so many things that are restricted (phenyl acetates!) that it seems almost impossible to make perfume.

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    Default Re: Good heliotope

    Quote Originally Posted by James Peterson View Post
    Thanks Chris. What a can of worms. I asked Vigon for samples of all three of their versions (including the "natural" which is ten times the price of the "synthetic.") So I went to place an order for a kilo of heliotropin ex sassafras and they said I need a license from the DEA. The DEA needs me to have a license from the state. There are all sorts of rules--thickness of walls, alarms, safes etc--so I'm going to wait until I'm a bit more established before really going for it. There are so many things that are restricted (phenyl acetates!) that it seems almost impossible to make perfume.
    Sounds even worse than the stuff we have to deal with here . . . It does sometimes feel as though the powers-that-be have a special desire to make life difficult for perfumers. However I suspect electricians would say the same, so perhaps itís just the way of the world now.
    Chris Bartlett
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    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Iím happy to quote: if you want free advice, thatís what these forums are for
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  21. #21
    Paul Kiler
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    Default Re: Good heliotope

    Heliotropin in the USA is a controlled material, as people use it to make Crack or Meth, or some other drugs..., I think, It's a drug chemical precurser...

    My best recommendation is to buy the replacer from PA, and not try to get the real heliotropin due to this issue...

    (Can you tell I've run into this before...?)

    PK
    Paul Kiler
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  22. #22
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    Default Re: Good heliotope

    Reviving this thread as I have recently received some acetophenone, and I was surprised at how much it reminded me of heliotropin. I then looked at good scents and it does indeed reference this chemical as having heliotropin, cherry-pit nuances. I thought this might be useful for anyone trying to get a helotropin vibe. I don't know about it's IFRA status however...

  23. #23
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    Default Re: Good heliotope

    Quote Originally Posted by gecko214 View Post
    Reviving this thread as I have recently received some acetophenone, and I was surprised at how much it reminded me of heliotropin. I then looked at good scents and it does indeed reference this chemical as having heliotropin, cherry-pit nuances. I thought this might be useful for anyone trying to get a helotropin vibe. I don't know about it's IFRA status however...
    Good spot there. Another option for construction of a heliotropin replacement is Acetanisole. Neither Acetophenone nor Acetanisole are subject to any IFRA restrictions and, so far as I know, donít have any drug-precursor problems either. Both are best used alongside Veratraldehyde to get a good representation of heliotropine in my opinion.
    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

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    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Iím happy to quote: if you want free advice, thatís what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  24. #24
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    Default Re: Good heliotope

    Hello,

    thanks Mr.Bartlett for your suggestion of the acetanisol.
    I was really pleased as i walked down my cellar and realized that i have 4-Methoxyacetophenon which later came to mind that this is the stuff wanted.
    I also have the veratraldehyde so i am ready to go for experiments.
    The only thing that makes me really sad is and think many others will have this problem:
    If you never had the luck to smell the real heliotropin/piperonal i think it will get some hassle to reconstruct the smell from substitutes.

    Is there an coarse ratio which one has to mix the acetanisol with the veratraldehyde to come close to the real Heliotropin/Piperonal...?
    Don't get me wrong i like to experiment but not to dump the prescious aromachemicals right at the start.
    Maybe it could be 99,9% Veratraldehyde and just a trace of acetanisol or completely switched...sayd 99,9% Acetanisol and a trace of Veratraldehyde...
    Maybe someone has a starting-point in a coarse direction not to waste the prescious aromachemicals right away.

    would be very thankful for an tip.


    Greetings:

    Hondo

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