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Thread: Fecal notes

  1. #31
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    Default Re: Fecal notes

    Quote Originally Posted by Graphite View Post
    I was talking about the „highly industrialized” segment and the „majority of people”, not about niche, even if it is a growing niche.
    Well, I guess generally speaking, most perfumers are just average people who don't care how their civet juice is obtained but I'm talking about an "ethically harvested" product which would likely be a niche product not really marketed to the average person. As an ethically harvested product, of course, the price would be higher. It would demand niche prices in the same way that organic milk cost $5 for a half gallon and yet there seems to be no lack of buyers and the industry is growing. There are many natural perfumers and regular perfumers who don't buy civet due to its harvesting methods, if there were an ethical company selling civet I'm sure all of those perfumers who don't buy would consider buying it, even if it were $30 for 1oz bottle vs $15... That's a LOT of civet and it will last for years! Quite frankly I would buy a proven ethically harvested civet at twice the cost of traditional Ethiopian and I'm sure I'm not alone.
    Justin E. Beasley

  2. #32
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    Default Re: Fecal notes

    I'd be inclined to agree, Justin - and if publicised it could even be quite helpful to production generally if the ethical issues were highlighted.

  3. #33

    Default Re: Fecal notes

    From my experience I cannot think of one major fragrance house that still uses any animal derived product (apart from Beeswax, of course). Surely this discussion is entirely theoretical. The major use of Civet, Castoreum etc. is the Chinese market.

  4. #34
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    Default Re: Fecal notes

    Quote Originally Posted by David Ruskin View Post
    From my experience I cannot think of one major fragrance house that still uses any animal derived product (apart from Beeswax, of course). Surely this discussion is entirely theoretical. The major use of Civet, Castoreum etc. is the Chinese market.
    What do you mean by "Chinese market"?
    Justin E. Beasley

  5. #35

    Default Re: Fecal notes

    Quote Originally Posted by JEBeasley View Post
    What do you mean by "Chinese market"?
    Not David, but one example: I'm pretty sure lower quality deer musk is sometimes funneled through the incense industry. Pick up a stick of Chinese musk incense (for those with chinese variety stores in their vicinity) and notice the funky smell.
    Last edited by DrSmellThis; 20th February 2014 at 09:44 PM.

  6. #36
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    Default Re: Fecal notes

    Quote Originally Posted by DrSmellThis View Post
    Not David, but one example: I'm pretty sure lower quality deer musk is sometimes funneled through the incense industry. Pick up a stick of Chinese musk incense (for those with chinese variety stores in their vicinity) and notice the funky smell.
    When I lived in Philadelphia I used to frequent Chinatown there, most of the incense I smelled was usually saw-dusty and perfumed with who knows what, not very appealing considering how good Japanese and Tibetan incense smell by comparison... I've never noticed a funky, musky or animalic smell though, hmm. I'll have to pay more attention. Supposedly castoreum is frequently used to flavor cheap strawberry ice cream... So, basically what David was getting at is that most of those animal products are used as adulterants in low quality products in order to give them some complexity and make seem better than they would be otherwise? What about brands like Creed, do they still use animal products?
    Justin E. Beasley

  7. #37

    Default Re: Fecal notes

    Quote Originally Posted by DrSmellThis View Post
    Not David, but one example: I'm pretty sure lower quality deer musk is sometimes funneled through the incense industry. Pick up a stick of Chinese musk incense (for those with chinese variety stores in their vicinity) and notice the funky smell.
    Probably not genuine Musk; more likely to be Musk Xylene.

  8. #38

    Default Re: Fecal notes

    Quote Originally Posted by JEBeasley View Post
    When I lived in Philadelphia I used to frequent Chinatown there, most of the incense I smelled was usually saw-dusty and perfumed with who knows what, not very appealing considering how good Japanese and Tibetan incense smell by comparison... I've never noticed a funky, musky or animalic smell though, hmm. I'll have to pay more attention. Supposedly castoreum is frequently used to flavor cheap strawberry ice cream... So, basically what David was getting at is that most of those animal products are used as adulterants in low quality products in order to give them some complexity and make seem better than they would be otherwise? What about brands like Creed, do they still use animal products?
    NO!!! Definitely not!!! What I meant was that the majority of animal extracts would be used in Chinese medicine; nothing to do with Perfumery. Some is used in some Perfumes, but very little, and Castoreum was used in Flavours, not sure if it is now. All I know is that I cannot think of one major Perfume House that uses any animal products, apart from Beeswax.

  9. #39

    Default Re: Fecal notes

    This may be a bit irrelevant, as ambergris isn't really an animal product as such, but I was reading this article recently by Sylvaine Delacourte, who holds some position at Guerlain and was surprised to read her claim that they still use natural ambergris in some perfumes. She describes how Thierry Wasser selects the blocks of ambergris himself. Apparently, it's used in "certain old perfumes like Mitsouko" and Encens Mythique d’Orient (Guerlain, 2012). She also says it's in Serge Lutens' "Ambre Sultan" and Dior's "Ambre Nuit", however I came across this piece on the Scent and Chemistry Facebook page. They did a GCMS analysis on Dior's "Ambre Nuit" and found "not even a trace of natural ambergris". I've just taken a look at the product page for Encens Mythique d'Orient on Guerlain's official website though, and they do specifically claim it contains natural New Zealand ambergris. Interesting, no?

  10. #40
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    Default Re: Fecal notes

    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade View Post
    This may be a bit irrelevant, as ambergris isn't really an animal product as such, but I was reading this article recently by Sylvaine Delacourte, who holds some position at Guerlain and was surprised to read her claim that they still use natural ambergris in some perfumes. She describes how Thierry Wasser selects the blocks of ambergris himself. Apparently, it's used in "certain old perfumes like Mitsouko" and Encens Mythique d’Orient (Guerlain, 2012). She also says it's in Serge Lutens' "Ambre Sultan" and Dior's "Ambre Nuit", however I came across this piece on the Scent and Chemistry Facebook page. They did a GCMS analysis on Dior's "Ambre Nuit" and found "not even a trace of natural ambergris". I've just taken a look at the product page for Encens Mythique d'Orient on Guerlain's official website though, and they do specifically claim it contains natural New Zealand ambergris. Interesting, no?
    "Interesting" from a marketing perspective, lol, looks like they want their customer base for those products to believe. So what are they using, Ambroxan?
    Justin E. Beasley

  11. #41

    Default Re: Fecal notes

    The description under the picture on the Scent and Chemistry Facebook page I linked to says that the Dior perfume contains 5.1% (–)-Ambrox. And lots of Iso E Super too.

    I didn't mean to dispute that natural ambergris is used in the recent Guerlain perfume, that one wasn't tested. Personally I don't see why it couldn't contain it - it's not against any rules as far as I'm aware, and I believe the perfume in question is pretty expensive and in limited production.

  12. #42
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    Default Re: Fecal notes

    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade View Post
    ...and I believe the perfume in question is pretty expensive and in limited production.
    They should just cut to the chase and claim that it contains unicorn poop and golden illuminatti sweat instead of ambergris, it would probably sell better because the ingredients are more rare and would appeal to the magical and elitist mindsets simultaneously. Or maybe a line of perfumes containing bodily secretions of rich and famous people, "One spray a day keeps the 'common' away".
    Justin E. Beasley

  13. #43

    Default Re: Fecal notes

    Quote Originally Posted by David Ruskin View Post
    Probably not genuine Musk; more likely to be Musk Xylene.
    Have you sampled the cheaper deer musk that comes out of Beijing? Not the professional perfume quality stuff from the Tonquin musk deer, but the cheap stuff from another species. There are several related species of deer now used, since the Tonquin deer is endangered. It smells to me of a certain kind of Chinese incense. You have all the industry inside information, granted. All I have is a nose, but that is what I think I detected immediately upon smelling it. (The incense industry is huge in Portland, with all the Bohemians.)The stuff is inadequate quality for fine perfumes, and I wouldn't use it. I'm not disputing your statement that xylene is most typically used, by the way. My impression is that Chinese medicine uses the higher quality stuff from the Tonquin deer (was told this by the industry person in Beijing, anyway, that the monks stubbornly insist on it for traditional reasons.)
    Last edited by DrSmellThis; 21st February 2014 at 07:12 PM.

  14. #44
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    Default Re: Fecal notes

    Quote Originally Posted by David Ruskin View Post
    NO!!! Definitely not!!! What I meant was that the majority of animal extracts would be used in Chinese medicine; nothing to do with Perfumery. Some is used in some Perfumes, but very little, and Castoreum was used in Flavours, not sure if it is now. All I know is that I cannot think of one major Perfume House that uses any animal products, apart from Beeswax.
    David I would not be one to doubt your knowledge and experience, but I wonder then, why castoreum and civet absolute are still produced in France? Surely not (solely) for the Chinese market? Or only for artisan/hobby perfumers? And Ambergris is still mainly purchased in France (and presumably re-sold somehow, in some form, to someone.) Would this not indicate that some perfume houses are still using these animal ingredients? Otherwise there would be no (significant) market and the absolutes would not be produced would they?

  15. #45
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    Default Re: Fecal notes

    This made me wonder who was buying civet a while back, gecko214
    http://fragranceingredients.iff.com/.../naturals.aspx
    Last edited by lpp; 21st February 2014 at 08:12 PM.

  16. #46

    Default Re: Fecal notes

    Not sure they would be using ambergris in Chinese medicine..
    Probably what is produced in France is for perfumery, but what is its fraction
    compared to global production of civet and castoreum products?

  17. #47

    Default Re: Fecal notes

    the amounts of these materials used in medicine is a tiny percent as what is used
    in fine fragrance and flavors, there isn't one company that will disclose that info and
    quite frankly i doubt if anyone here on basenotes, or any other public venue would even know who uses what
    or would even discuss it, to suggest otherwise is pure speculation.

  18. #48

    Default Re: Fecal notes

    Quote Originally Posted by gecko214 View Post
    David I would not be one to doubt your knowledge and experience, but I wonder then, why castoreum and civet absolute are still produced in France? Surely not (solely) for the Chinese market? Or only for artisan/hobby perfumers? And Ambergris is still mainly purchased in France (and presumably re-sold somehow, in some form, to someone.) Would this not indicate that some perfume houses are still using these animal ingredients? Otherwise there would be no (significant) market and the absolutes would not be produced would they?
    I am not aware of anyone in France producing Civet or Castoreum absolutes; and I repeat I do to know of any major fragrance house that now uses them. It may be that they are produced for the Asian market; and I have no doubt that they are produced in China and India.

    However Lyn's list has floored me. I really was not aware that IFF produced Civet etc. IFF Perfumers don't use them for European and American customers.

    Many (most) customers of fragrances do not want animal products in their fragrances as it is really bad PR.

    The amount of materials used in Chinese medicines is vast. Rhinoceros are being hunted to extinction because of it. Tonquin Musk Deer is nearly extinct because of it. I would say that the amount of materials used in Chinese medicine far outweighs those used in Perfumery. But as has been pointed out, this is all mere speculation.

  19. #49

    Default Re: Fecal notes

    Quote Originally Posted by David Ruskin View Post
    I am not aware of anyone in France producing Civet or Castoreum absolutes; and I repeat I do to know of any major fragrance house that now uses them. It may be that they are produced for the Asian market; and I have no doubt that they are produced in China and India.

    However Lyn's list has floored me. I really was not aware that IFF produced Civet etc. IFF Perfumers don't use them for European and American customers.

    Many (most) customers of fragrances do not want animal products in their fragrances as it is really bad PR.

    The amount of materials used in Chinese medicines is vast. Rhinoceros are being hunted to extinction because of it. Tonquin Musk Deer is nearly extinct because of it. I would say that the amount of materials used in Chinese medicine far outweighs those used in Perfumery. But as has been pointed out, this is all mere speculation.
    well besides IFF, there is also charabot, and robertet naturals.

    http://www.charabot.com/raw-material...s-bm-01-50-dpg
    http://www.charabot.com/raw-material...perabsolute-01
    http://www.robertet.com/uk/matieres_...=c&changelg=uk

  20. #50
    Paul Kiler
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    Default Re: Fecal notes

    Yes, My IFF Perfumer's Natural Materials Compendium lists Civet Absolute on P. 45. IPC number 34402

    it says:

    Ethiopia
    Solvent extraction followed by purification with ethyl alcohol
    1Kg of Absolute is made from 4Kg of Civet paste.

    Haven't gotten their sample yet though, been asking for a year or more for a bucket of samples through my friend the NY IFF GC-MS master there.

    PK
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  21. #51

    Default Re: Fecal notes

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post
    Yes, My IFF Perfumer's Natural Materials Compendium lists Civet Absolute on P. 45. IPC number 34402

    it says:

    Ethiopia
    Solvent extraction followed by purification with ethyl alcohol
    1Kg of Absolute is made from 4Kg of Civet paste.

    Haven't gotten their sample yet though, been asking for a year or more for a bucket of samples through my friend the NY IFF GC-MS master there.

    PK
    paul,
    charabot's civet and castoreum new hyperabsolutes are suppose to be out of this world.

  22. #52
    Paul Kiler
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    Default Re: Fecal notes

    Cool Luigi...

    I might see Charabot next month at the Natural products Show in Anaheim, CA. Robertet/Charabot were there last year, I'll ask if I see them..

    PK
    Paul Kiler
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  23. #53
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    Default Re: Fecal notes

    Quote Originally Posted by David Ruskin View Post
    I am not aware of anyone in France producing Civet or Castoreum absolutes; and I repeat I do to know of any major fragrance house that now uses them. It may be that they are produced for the Asian market; and I have no doubt that they are produced in China and India.

    However Lyn's list has floored me. I really was not aware that IFF produced Civet etc. IFF Perfumers don't use them for European and American customers.

    Many (most) customers of fragrances do not want animal products in their fragrances as it is really bad PR.

    The amount of materials used in Chinese medicines is vast. Rhinoceros are being hunted to extinction because of it. Tonquin Musk Deer is nearly extinct because of it. I would say that the amount of materials used in Chinese medicine far outweighs those used in Perfumery. But as has been pointed out, this is all mere speculation.
    David again I would always defer to your knowledge but here I am confused as my little bottle of Castoreum abs from a certain French supplier says "Origine: France," Adam at Hermitage says his is also made in France "from arguably the most respected Grasse based company..." and Paul Mentions Charabot who also have both products listed: http://www.charabot.com/raw-material...ds-absolutes/C so whether actually produced in France may be impossible to determine, at least a few reputable French suppliers are selling it as their own, and with standard packaging of 5kgs of absolute, they must be selling to more than just a few artisan/hobby perfumers... as you say, maybe all for the Chinese medicine market, but I imagine the Chinese would just import their own raw materials and make it themselves rather than buy from a pricey perfume supply company from Grasse.

  24. #54

    Default Re: Fecal notes

    It could be that the raw excrement are collected in the east, and some suppliers sell it for perfumery, where it's extracted in France..

  25. #55
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    Default Re: Fecal notes

    One thing's for sure - we'll never know

  26. #56

    Default Re: Fecal notes

    I am not sure if I enjoy fecal notes or not; I shall wipe my cat's butt with a brick of incense charcoal and light it. I'll let you all know how it goes.

  27. #57

    Default Re: Fecal notes

    Quote Originally Posted by gecko214 View Post
    David again I would always defer to your knowledge but here I am confused as my little bottle of Castoreum abs from a certain French supplier says "Origine: France," Adam at Hermitage says his is also made in France "from arguably the most respected Grasse based company..." and Paul Mentions Charabot who also have both products listed: http://www.charabot.com/raw-material...ds-absolutes/C so whether actually produced in France may be impossible to determine, at least a few reputable French suppliers are selling it as their own, and with standard packaging of 5kgs of absolute, they must be selling to more than just a few artisan/hobby perfumers... as you say, maybe all for the Chinese medicine market, but I imagine the Chinese would just import their own raw materials and make it themselves rather than buy from a pricey perfume supply company from Grasse.
    I'm as confused as everyone else, now. I still maintain that no large fragrance house uses Civet or Castoreum for fragrances designed for Europe or America. If French ingredient suppliers are producing and advertising their products, they must be selling it somewhere. Maybe the big houses do use these animal products, and have been lying all the time. Or maybe the producers are selling their products elsewhere.

  28. #58

    Default Re: Fecal notes

    I bought some civet paste from an Italian company--profumo.it--and have tinctured it to 2 dilutions. It has a lovely almost irresistible fruity fragrance but is still plenty funky. It's not fecal at all. Civet absolute, however, and even more so civetone, do smell fecal. I don't tend to use them.

  29. #59

    Default Re: Fecal notes

    If it's of interest to anyone, I make my own castoreum tincture from beaver gland puree that I buy from a trappers' site. It smells comparable to a sample I bought from ilprofumo.it. I have a terrible weakness for animal products but manage to keep my hands off deer musk which, despite being my favorite smell in the world, is out of the question for ethical reasons. The cultivated Chinese deer musk does not compare to the wild variety.
    Last edited by James Peterson; 24th February 2014 at 03:27 PM.

  30. #60
    Paul Kiler
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    Default Re: Fecal notes

    Quote Originally Posted by James Peterson View Post
    If it's of interest to anyone, I make my own castoreum tincture from beaver gland puree that I buy from a trappers' site.
    I too make a tincture from the dried gland, not a puree, and also obtained from a Trapper's Site. It is by far as strong as you could possibly want. I puit the material into a jar, and poured the alcohol to cover, and then heated the alcohl in the microwave until just before boiling, let cool then repeated. The result is so strong and amazing. The Material surely could have been tinctured again even, as when you take the cap off, it knocks you over... both before AND after tincturing...

    PK
    Paul Kiler
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