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Thread: Fecal notes

  1. #1

    Default Fecal notes

    This might be too much for some, and I apologize..
    I was wondering for a while why indole and skatole are defined as 'fecal'.. They certainly stink, but that didn't smell like feces to me.. However my synthetic civet kind of does. And then I realized that 'fecal' in the wide sense could mean also animal feces (or baby feces..) - they don't eat meat, so for some the smell is more ocher-ish, like what I get from indole and skatole.. Does this make sense?
    And what generates the 'brown' fecal note in the civet synthetics? I like this effect on my mixes better than indole, and thought it would be 'fun' to experiment with separates chemicals..

    Danke

  2. #2

    Default Re: Fecal notes

    Phenyl Aceticacid, Butyric Acid, Valeric Acid, Costus Oil (or substitute); Dimethyl Sulphide, Civetone, Muscone, Muscenone, para Cresyl Caprylate; and then depending Cumin and Asafoedita.

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    Default Re: Fecal notes

    Quote Originally Posted by Nizan View Post
    And what generates the 'brown' fecal note in the civet synthetics
    Danke
    I always thought it has to do with the fact that civet paste is exuded from the anal glands of the civet which means that there very well may be some fecal matter present.
    Justin E. Beasley

  4. #4

    Default Re: Fecal notes

    I think the natural stuff just smells that way all by itself!

    And I think that it's removed by force, rather than exuded...
    Last edited by lpp; 18th February 2014 at 05:49 PM.

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    Default Re: Fecal notes

    Quote Originally Posted by lpp View Post
    I think the natural stuff just smells that way all by itself!
    And I think that it's removed by force, rather than exuded...
    My understanding is that the civet has a natural inclination to rub it off of their butt and so they place posts in the cage so that the civets can rub it off onto the post and then the post is scraped of the civet paste and processed of any debris. I know they used to squeeze the animal into a tiny cage and scrape it off of their butt with a scraper but I have no idea if they still do that...
    Justin E. Beasley

  6. #6

    Default Re: Fecal notes

    Yup, in Ethiopia they're kept in tiny cages & removed for the extraction - the WSPA report is disturbing reading but it's the traditional way of doing it there.
    WSPA have since moved on to the coffee bean aspect of civet farming and may only have made small progress in terms of end-users on the other issue before abandoning their efforts - according to emails from WSPA last December.

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    Default Re: Fecal notes

    Quote Originally Posted by lpp View Post
    Yup, in Ethiopia they're kept in tiny cages & removed for the extraction - the WSPA report is disturbing reading but it's the traditional way of doing it there.
    WSPA have since moved on to the coffee bean aspect of civet farming and may only have made small progress in terms of end-users on the other issue before abandoning their efforts - according to emails from WSPA last December.
    Yikes, so, is ALL civet paste still extracted by force? Is the "pole rub" idea just a lie to confuse matters and retain customers?
    Justin E. Beasley

  8. #8

    Default Re: Fecal notes

    I honestly don't know, Justin - the problem in Africa is apparently that the method of keeping them is a cultural tradition so outsiders can't influence it.
    I don't know whether it's any better elsewhere, such as in India - it would be interesting to know 'though.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Fecal notes

    Quote Originally Posted by Nizan View Post
    This might be too much for some, and I apologize..
    I was wondering for a while why indole and skatole are defined as 'fecal'.. They certainly stink, but that didn't smell like feces to me.. However my synthetic civet kind of does. And then I realized that 'fecal' in the wide sense could mean also animal feces (or baby feces..) - they don't eat meat, so for some the smell is more ocher-ish, like what I get from indole and skatole.. Does this make sense?
    And what generates the 'brown' fecal note in the civet synthetics? I like this effect on my mixes better than indole, and thought it would be 'fun' to experiment with separates chemicals..

    Danke
    The Belgian Artist Wim Delvoye constructed a machine in 2000 with the telling name „Cloaca”. It was developed in cooperation with scientists and it was producing plain shit. Out of food, of course, maybe some Wiener Schnitzel.
    What about doing a little research on the acids/enzymes needed to extract all the vitamins and other useful ingredients out of meat and setting up a tiny lab at home? Acid + protein –time/warmth/no oxygen–> funny smell?

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    Default Re: Fecal notes

    Quote Originally Posted by Graphite View Post
    The Belgian Artist Wim Delvoye constructed a machine in 2000 with the telling name „Cloaca”. It was developed in cooperation with scientists and it was producing plain shit. Out of food, of course, maybe some Wiener Schnitzel.
    What about doing a little research on the acids/enzymes needed to extract all the vitamins and other useful ingredients out of meat and setting up a tiny lab at home? Acid + protein –time/warmth/no oxygen–> funny smell?
    What a horrid experiment, purposely trying to create poo from an artificial bowel. You would also need to add beneficial bacteria to the experiment as gut flora is 60% or more of our digestive process. Since a lot of the nutritional content is extracted by the body then what is left behind as excrement is primarily fat, fiber, etc... Why is this an experiment again, can someone remind me, lol!
    Justin E. Beasley

  11. #11

    Default Re: Fecal notes

    Quote Originally Posted by David Ruskin View Post
    Phenyl Aceticacid, Butyric Acid, Valeric Acid, Costus Oil (or substitute); Dimethyl Sulphide, Civetone, Muscone, Muscenone, para Cresyl Caprylate; and then depending Cumin and Asafoedita.
    That's a direct answer for you.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Fecal notes

    I'm not really interested in living matter.. I could have found some high quality poo and tincture it without torturing/caging animals (or using machines).. It's bad enough that I eat them (not the machines.. yet!). As for David's post - I'm only familiar with muscone, costus and cumin, and though they're animalic (?), they're not really fecal to me.. I guess I can make some phenyl acetic acid by leaving some phenyl acetaldehyde outside to oxidize?
    Which is these is the brownest smelling?

  13. #13

    Default Re: Fecal notes

    Maybe a bit off-topic, but some ouds are very 'barnyard'?

  14. #14

    Default Re: Fecal notes

    Quote Originally Posted by lpp View Post
    Yup, in Ethiopia they're kept in tiny cages & removed for the extraction - the WSPA report is disturbing reading but it's the traditional way of doing it there.
    WSPA have since moved on to the coffee bean aspect of civet farming and may only have made small progress in terms of end-users on the other issue before abandoning their efforts - according to emails from WSPA last December.
    actually that report is what maybe 15 years old, it was also debunked buy IFRA as well as another trade group, a couple of years later
    i will try to find the reference.
    also of interest for those that subscribe to any conspiracy theory is the report was released soon after a synthetic civet was on the market.
    when that report had little or no effect on the use of real civet paste, the SARS outbreak was preliminarily linked to civet cats and before
    any confirmation was made, a world wide order was sent out to destroy all civet cats.
    so hundreds of thousands of civet cats were clubbed to death, drowned, doused with fuel and burned alive, electrocuted...
    so in short order civets had almost been wiped off the face of the earth, also of interest, not ONE animal rights group, raised a finger to stop it, or ask any questions.......

    of course it is different story when civets are keep in even smaller cages throughout the far east in steaming hot kitchens
    waiting to be killed for a dinner.

    now i am not condoning the mistreatment of any animal, nor am i suggesting the use of civet paste.
    simply suggesting there is more to this story.....

    my state is known as the dairy state, and as has happened and i would bet might happen again are isolated incidents of mistreatment of dairy cows, if it is cruelty, bad conditions etc.... one does not expect that across the board.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Fecal notes

    Had some fecal notes on today as I stepped in some dog poo.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Fecal notes

    Quote Originally Posted by luigi_g View Post
    actually that report is what maybe 15 years old, it was also debunked buy IFRA as well as another trade group, a couple of years later
    i will try to find the reference.
    also of interest for those that subscribe to any conspiracy theory is the report was released soon after a synthetic civet was on the market.
    when that report had little or no effect on the use of real civet paste, the SARS outbreak was preliminarily linked to civet cats and before
    any confirmation was made, a world wide order was sent out to destroy all civet cats.
    so hundreds of thousands of civet cats were clubbed to death, drowned, doused with fuel and burned alive, electrocuted...
    so in short order civets had almost been wiped off the face of the earth, also of interest, not ONE animal rights group, raised a finger to stop it, or ask any questions.......

    of course it is different story when civets are keep in even smaller cages throughout the far east in steaming hot kitchens
    waiting to be killed for a dinner.

    now i am not condoning the mistreatment of any animal, nor am i suggesting the use of civet paste.
    simply suggesting there is more to this story.....

    my state is known as the dairy state, and as has happened and i would bet might happen again are isolated incidents of mistreatment of dairy cows, if it is cruelty, bad conditions etc.... one does not expect that across the board.
    So, are you saying that the way civet paste is harvested has changed from the fifteen year old report? How is it currently harvested? That really stinks that so many civets were unnecessarily destroyed. I'm not really the conspiracy theory type but sometimes conspiracy theories are conspiracy fact, especially where large sums of money or market control are involved.

    How does artificial Civet compare to the real thing? I'm going to buy some in my next order but thought I'd ask anyway.

    I have an ambergris that smells very fecal - if it truly is real ambergris anyway, I have reason to believe it might be a fake, in which case it really could be just poo, which would explain the fecal smell.
    Justin E. Beasley

  17. #17

    Default Re: Fecal notes

    Quote Originally Posted by JEBeasley View Post
    So, are you saying that the way civet paste is harvested has changed from the fifteen year old report? How is it currently harvested? That really stinks that so many civets were unnecessarily destroyed. I'm not really the conspiracy theory type but sometimes conspiracy theories are conspiracy fact, especially where large sums of money or market control are involved.

    How does artificial Civet compare to the real thing? I'm going to buy some in my next order but thought I'd ask anyway.

    I have an ambergris that smells very fecal - if it truly is real ambergris anyway, I have reason to believe it might be a fake, in which case it really could be just poo, which would explain the fecal smell.

    It would be lovely to see independent, preferably photographically documented, evidence of improved civet paste production, Luigi.

    Synthetic civet is used to good effect but everyone makes their own choices - provided that they are aware of the possibilities in the first place

  18. #18

    Default Re: Fecal notes

    Quote Originally Posted by lpp View Post
    It would be lovely to see independent, preferably photographically documented, evidence of improved civet paste production, Luigi.

    Synthetic civet is used to good effect but everyone makes their own choices - provided that they are aware of the possibilities in the first place
    lpp,

    i could do even better for you, i will get you in touch with the PHD professor at the university who last years semester did a class
    on ethical harvesting and whom is also doing research on extraction methods and btw he is Ethiopia and not a outsider that
    came there to setup shop to profit and mistreat the cats.

    the newest synthetic civet is a nice product and a great alternative until this ever gets cleared up.

    i will pm you his contact info as well as one of the partners whom i am consulting with, is that ok to do so.
    i am sure they will send you more photos and info than your hard drive might hold.... just kidding

  19. #19

    Default Re: Fecal notes

    Thank you, Luigi - that sounds very positive!

  20. #20

    Default Re: Fecal notes

    Quote Originally Posted by lpp View Post
    Thank you, Luigi - that sounds very positive!
    your welcome lpp,

    as long as we on this subject and again is a bit off topic, one of my complaints is the story with castoreum
    if there is any animal material that should be brought to attention is castoreum.
    regardless of what anyone tells you there is absolutely no humane way of getting castoreum, NONE
    they are drowned alive in snare traps, and since most of their predators have been wiped out, they over run
    most of the oil lands and other mineral lands now being worked to the max.
    so the encroachment into their habitat is at horrible rates.
    of course that is not true in some cases, there are still the small fur trappers that work their own land.
    nothing is said, but at some point they will become endangered if they are not already and this gets the blind eye....

    but the oil . mineral , chemical companies have vast power, and lets not forget the fur trade and the flavor industry !

    just my two cents....

  21. #21

    Default Re: Fecal notes

    Ipp -
    Maybe a bit off-topic, but some ouds are very 'barnyard'?
    I also get something like that from my Oud.. Smells a bit like something is rotting.. But I guess
    something was rotting, in a sense..

  22. #22

    Default Re: Fecal notes

    Hehe - the Hindi ones are often quite that way if you went in that direction.

    I've avoided castoreum as well, Luigi but I'm just a slight dabbler.
    Last edited by lpp; 19th February 2014 at 12:43 PM.

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    Default Re: Fecal notes

    Sorry to continue in this off-topic direction but I think "forced extraction" (scraping out the gland of captive civets) happens in Ethiopian civet farming (or so I have read) but I know for a fact that in Thailand it is actually taken from the stick placed in the cage (a friend of mine is a journalist who looked into this there.) Also, my information is that Ethiopian material is ALWAYS adulterated with who knows what. I got that from a friend who lived and worked in Ethiopia for several years and who was told this by the main buyer of civet in the country, who then exports it (and said he absolutely could not supply "unadulterated" or "pure" civet paste). On castoreum fair enough, but my understanding, after some research (always happy to change my opinion if someone else has other facts) is that however cruel it is, it is a byproduct of the more lucrative beaver fur trade, and that no one traps for the castoreum (alone)...

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    Default Re: Fecal notes

    Beavers are destroying the Tierra del Fuego National Park in southern Argentina, they were introduced as a non native species in the 40's and they currently have no animal predators to reduce their numbers.

    http://www.npr.org/2011/06/24/137067...ntinas-forests
    Justin E. Beasley

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    Default Re: Fecal notes

    Quote Originally Posted by lpp View Post
    It would be lovely to see independent, preferably photographically documented, evidence of improved civet paste production, Luigi.

    Synthetic civet is used to good effect but everyone makes their own choices - provided that they are aware of the possibilities in the first place
    If there were a confirmed ethically harvested source, where the animals aren't harmed in any way and are well kept, I imagine they would have a pretty good business...
    Justin E. Beasley

  26. #26

    Default Re: Fecal notes

    If they were sufficiently organised so that they were not taken advantage of by re-sellers along the supply chain, which must be possible to organise these days!
    So many producers in various areas seem to be paid very little for their products compared to the final retail price.

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    Default Re: Fecal notes

    Quote Originally Posted by lpp View Post
    If they were sufficiently organised so that they were not taken advantage of by re-sellers along the supply chain, which must be possible to organise these days!
    So many producers in various areas seem to be paid very little for their products compared to the final retail price.
    Yes, fair trade would definitely be a plus!
    Justin E. Beasley

  28. #28

    Default Re: Fecal notes

    Quote Originally Posted by JEBeasley View Post
    If there were a confirmed ethically harvested source, where the animals aren't harmed in any way and are well kept, I imagine they would have a pretty good business...
    I doubt this would have a positive impact on the profit they make. More likely they would have to work more for the same turnover.
    Look at the highly industrialized milk and egg production. They are thriving, no? Even though their methods are ethically more than questionable.
    As long as it's not their own pet, the majority of people does not care about animal's wellbeing.

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    Default Re: Fecal notes

    Quote Originally Posted by Graphite View Post
    I doubt this would have a positive impact on the profit they make. More likely they would have to work more for the same turnover.
    Look at the highly industrialized milk and egg production. They are thriving, no? Even though their methods are ethically more than questionable.
    As long as it's not their own pet, the majority of people does not care about animal's wellbeing.
    That's not altogether true, there is a huge movement toward organic milk and grass-fed beef, free range eggs and chickens, etc. While I'm sure the conditions are still not what they should be there are a lot of people supporting free trade, free range and ethically harvested products in general and the market is growing. The demand seems to be growing consistently and demand is outstripping supply which tends to keep the prices pretty high (despite the so called free market arguments of those who claim that with more product being purchased wholesale, at greater quantity, prices will fall).
    Justin E. Beasley

  30. #30

    Default Re: Fecal notes

    I was talking about the „highly industrialized” segment and the „majority of people”, not about niche, even if it is a growing niche.

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    Default Re: Fecal notes

    Quote Originally Posted by Graphite View Post
    I was talking about the „highly industrialized” segment and the „majority of people”, not about niche, even if it is a growing niche.
    Well, I guess generally speaking, most perfumers are just average people who don't care how their civet juice is obtained but I'm talking about an "ethically harvested" product which would likely be a niche product not really marketed to the average person. As an ethically harvested product, of course, the price would be higher. It would demand niche prices in the same way that organic milk cost $5 for a half gallon and yet there seems to be no lack of buyers and the industry is growing. There are many natural perfumers and regular perfumers who don't buy civet due to its harvesting methods, if there were an ethical company selling civet I'm sure all of those perfumers who don't buy would consider buying it, even if it were $30 for 1oz bottle vs $15... That's a LOT of civet and it will last for years! Quite frankly I would buy a proven ethically harvested civet at twice the cost of traditional Ethiopian and I'm sure I'm not alone.
    Justin E. Beasley

  32. #32

    Default Re: Fecal notes

    I'd be inclined to agree, Justin - and if publicised it could even be quite helpful to production generally if the ethical issues were highlighted.

  33. #33

    Default Re: Fecal notes

    From my experience I cannot think of one major fragrance house that still uses any animal derived product (apart from Beeswax, of course). Surely this discussion is entirely theoretical. The major use of Civet, Castoreum etc. is the Chinese market.

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    Default Re: Fecal notes

    Quote Originally Posted by David Ruskin View Post
    From my experience I cannot think of one major fragrance house that still uses any animal derived product (apart from Beeswax, of course). Surely this discussion is entirely theoretical. The major use of Civet, Castoreum etc. is the Chinese market.
    What do you mean by "Chinese market"?
    Justin E. Beasley

  35. #35

    Default Re: Fecal notes

    Quote Originally Posted by JEBeasley View Post
    What do you mean by "Chinese market"?
    Not David, but one example: I'm pretty sure lower quality deer musk is sometimes funneled through the incense industry. Pick up a stick of Chinese musk incense (for those with chinese variety stores in their vicinity) and notice the funky smell.
    Last edited by DrSmellThis; 20th February 2014 at 09:44 PM.

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    Default Re: Fecal notes

    Quote Originally Posted by DrSmellThis View Post
    Not David, but one example: I'm pretty sure lower quality deer musk is sometimes funneled through the incense industry. Pick up a stick of Chinese musk incense (for those with chinese variety stores in their vicinity) and notice the funky smell.
    When I lived in Philadelphia I used to frequent Chinatown there, most of the incense I smelled was usually saw-dusty and perfumed with who knows what, not very appealing considering how good Japanese and Tibetan incense smell by comparison... I've never noticed a funky, musky or animalic smell though, hmm. I'll have to pay more attention. Supposedly castoreum is frequently used to flavor cheap strawberry ice cream... So, basically what David was getting at is that most of those animal products are used as adulterants in low quality products in order to give them some complexity and make seem better than they would be otherwise? What about brands like Creed, do they still use animal products?
    Justin E. Beasley

  37. #37

    Default Re: Fecal notes

    Quote Originally Posted by DrSmellThis View Post
    Not David, but one example: I'm pretty sure lower quality deer musk is sometimes funneled through the incense industry. Pick up a stick of Chinese musk incense (for those with chinese variety stores in their vicinity) and notice the funky smell.
    Probably not genuine Musk; more likely to be Musk Xylene.

  38. #38

    Default Re: Fecal notes

    Quote Originally Posted by JEBeasley View Post
    When I lived in Philadelphia I used to frequent Chinatown there, most of the incense I smelled was usually saw-dusty and perfumed with who knows what, not very appealing considering how good Japanese and Tibetan incense smell by comparison... I've never noticed a funky, musky or animalic smell though, hmm. I'll have to pay more attention. Supposedly castoreum is frequently used to flavor cheap strawberry ice cream... So, basically what David was getting at is that most of those animal products are used as adulterants in low quality products in order to give them some complexity and make seem better than they would be otherwise? What about brands like Creed, do they still use animal products?
    NO!!! Definitely not!!! What I meant was that the majority of animal extracts would be used in Chinese medicine; nothing to do with Perfumery. Some is used in some Perfumes, but very little, and Castoreum was used in Flavours, not sure if it is now. All I know is that I cannot think of one major Perfume House that uses any animal products, apart from Beeswax.

  39. #39

    Default Re: Fecal notes

    This may be a bit irrelevant, as ambergris isn't really an animal product as such, but I was reading this article recently by Sylvaine Delacourte, who holds some position at Guerlain and was surprised to read her claim that they still use natural ambergris in some perfumes. She describes how Thierry Wasser selects the blocks of ambergris himself. Apparently, it's used in "certain old perfumes like Mitsouko" and Encens Mythique d’Orient (Guerlain, 2012). She also says it's in Serge Lutens' "Ambre Sultan" and Dior's "Ambre Nuit", however I came across this piece on the Scent and Chemistry Facebook page. They did a GCMS analysis on Dior's "Ambre Nuit" and found "not even a trace of natural ambergris". I've just taken a look at the product page for Encens Mythique d'Orient on Guerlain's official website though, and they do specifically claim it contains natural New Zealand ambergris. Interesting, no?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade View Post
    This may be a bit irrelevant, as ambergris isn't really an animal product as such, but I was reading this article recently by Sylvaine Delacourte, who holds some position at Guerlain and was surprised to read her claim that they still use natural ambergris in some perfumes. She describes how Thierry Wasser selects the blocks of ambergris himself. Apparently, it's used in "certain old perfumes like Mitsouko" and Encens Mythique d’Orient (Guerlain, 2012). She also says it's in Serge Lutens' "Ambre Sultan" and Dior's "Ambre Nuit", however I came across this piece on the Scent and Chemistry Facebook page. They did a GCMS analysis on Dior's "Ambre Nuit" and found "not even a trace of natural ambergris". I've just taken a look at the product page for Encens Mythique d'Orient on Guerlain's official website though, and they do specifically claim it contains natural New Zealand ambergris. Interesting, no?
    "Interesting" from a marketing perspective, lol, looks like they want their customer base for those products to believe. So what are they using, Ambroxan?
    Justin E. Beasley

  41. #41

    Default Re: Fecal notes

    The description under the picture on the Scent and Chemistry Facebook page I linked to says that the Dior perfume contains 5.1% (–)-Ambrox. And lots of Iso E Super too.

    I didn't mean to dispute that natural ambergris is used in the recent Guerlain perfume, that one wasn't tested. Personally I don't see why it couldn't contain it - it's not against any rules as far as I'm aware, and I believe the perfume in question is pretty expensive and in limited production.

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    Default Re: Fecal notes

    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade View Post
    ...and I believe the perfume in question is pretty expensive and in limited production.
    They should just cut to the chase and claim that it contains unicorn poop and golden illuminatti sweat instead of ambergris, it would probably sell better because the ingredients are more rare and would appeal to the magical and elitist mindsets simultaneously. Or maybe a line of perfumes containing bodily secretions of rich and famous people, "One spray a day keeps the 'common' away".
    Justin E. Beasley

  43. #43

    Default Re: Fecal notes

    Quote Originally Posted by David Ruskin View Post
    Probably not genuine Musk; more likely to be Musk Xylene.
    Have you sampled the cheaper deer musk that comes out of Beijing? Not the professional perfume quality stuff from the Tonquin musk deer, but the cheap stuff from another species. There are several related species of deer now used, since the Tonquin deer is endangered. It smells to me of a certain kind of Chinese incense. You have all the industry inside information, granted. All I have is a nose, but that is what I think I detected immediately upon smelling it. (The incense industry is huge in Portland, with all the Bohemians.)The stuff is inadequate quality for fine perfumes, and I wouldn't use it. I'm not disputing your statement that xylene is most typically used, by the way. My impression is that Chinese medicine uses the higher quality stuff from the Tonquin deer (was told this by the industry person in Beijing, anyway, that the monks stubbornly insist on it for traditional reasons.)
    Last edited by DrSmellThis; 21st February 2014 at 07:12 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Ruskin View Post
    NO!!! Definitely not!!! What I meant was that the majority of animal extracts would be used in Chinese medicine; nothing to do with Perfumery. Some is used in some Perfumes, but very little, and Castoreum was used in Flavours, not sure if it is now. All I know is that I cannot think of one major Perfume House that uses any animal products, apart from Beeswax.
    David I would not be one to doubt your knowledge and experience, but I wonder then, why castoreum and civet absolute are still produced in France? Surely not (solely) for the Chinese market? Or only for artisan/hobby perfumers? And Ambergris is still mainly purchased in France (and presumably re-sold somehow, in some form, to someone.) Would this not indicate that some perfume houses are still using these animal ingredients? Otherwise there would be no (significant) market and the absolutes would not be produced would they?

  45. #45

    Default Re: Fecal notes

    This made me wonder who was buying civet a while back, gecko214
    http://fragranceingredients.iff.com/.../naturals.aspx
    Last edited by lpp; 21st February 2014 at 08:12 PM.

  46. #46

    Default Re: Fecal notes

    Not sure they would be using ambergris in Chinese medicine..
    Probably what is produced in France is for perfumery, but what is its fraction
    compared to global production of civet and castoreum products?

  47. #47

    Default Re: Fecal notes

    the amounts of these materials used in medicine is a tiny percent as what is used
    in fine fragrance and flavors, there isn't one company that will disclose that info and
    quite frankly i doubt if anyone here on basenotes, or any other public venue would even know who uses what
    or would even discuss it, to suggest otherwise is pure speculation.

  48. #48

    Default Re: Fecal notes

    Quote Originally Posted by gecko214 View Post
    David I would not be one to doubt your knowledge and experience, but I wonder then, why castoreum and civet absolute are still produced in France? Surely not (solely) for the Chinese market? Or only for artisan/hobby perfumers? And Ambergris is still mainly purchased in France (and presumably re-sold somehow, in some form, to someone.) Would this not indicate that some perfume houses are still using these animal ingredients? Otherwise there would be no (significant) market and the absolutes would not be produced would they?
    I am not aware of anyone in France producing Civet or Castoreum absolutes; and I repeat I do to know of any major fragrance house that now uses them. It may be that they are produced for the Asian market; and I have no doubt that they are produced in China and India.

    However Lyn's list has floored me. I really was not aware that IFF produced Civet etc. IFF Perfumers don't use them for European and American customers.

    Many (most) customers of fragrances do not want animal products in their fragrances as it is really bad PR.

    The amount of materials used in Chinese medicines is vast. Rhinoceros are being hunted to extinction because of it. Tonquin Musk Deer is nearly extinct because of it. I would say that the amount of materials used in Chinese medicine far outweighs those used in Perfumery. But as has been pointed out, this is all mere speculation.

  49. #49

    Default Re: Fecal notes

    Quote Originally Posted by David Ruskin View Post
    I am not aware of anyone in France producing Civet or Castoreum absolutes; and I repeat I do to know of any major fragrance house that now uses them. It may be that they are produced for the Asian market; and I have no doubt that they are produced in China and India.

    However Lyn's list has floored me. I really was not aware that IFF produced Civet etc. IFF Perfumers don't use them for European and American customers.

    Many (most) customers of fragrances do not want animal products in their fragrances as it is really bad PR.

    The amount of materials used in Chinese medicines is vast. Rhinoceros are being hunted to extinction because of it. Tonquin Musk Deer is nearly extinct because of it. I would say that the amount of materials used in Chinese medicine far outweighs those used in Perfumery. But as has been pointed out, this is all mere speculation.
    well besides IFF, there is also charabot, and robertet naturals.

    http://www.charabot.com/raw-material...s-bm-01-50-dpg
    http://www.charabot.com/raw-material...perabsolute-01
    http://www.robertet.com/uk/matieres_...=c&changelg=uk

  50. #50

    Default Re: Fecal notes

    Yes, My IFF Perfumer's Natural Materials Compendium lists Civet Absolute on P. 45. IPC number 34402

    it says:

    Ethiopia
    Solvent extraction followed by purification with ethyl alcohol
    1Kg of Absolute is made from 4Kg of Civet paste.

    Haven't gotten their sample yet though, been asking for a year or more for a bucket of samples through my friend the NY IFF GC-MS master there.

    PK
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  51. #51

    Default Re: Fecal notes

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post
    Yes, My IFF Perfumer's Natural Materials Compendium lists Civet Absolute on P. 45. IPC number 34402

    it says:

    Ethiopia
    Solvent extraction followed by purification with ethyl alcohol
    1Kg of Absolute is made from 4Kg of Civet paste.

    Haven't gotten their sample yet though, been asking for a year or more for a bucket of samples through my friend the NY IFF GC-MS master there.

    PK
    paul,
    charabot's civet and castoreum new hyperabsolutes are suppose to be out of this world.

  52. #52

    Default Re: Fecal notes

    Cool Luigi...

    I might see Charabot next month at the Natural products Show in Anaheim, CA. Robertet/Charabot were there last year, I'll ask if I see them..

    PK
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  53. #53
    gecko214's Avatar
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    Canton de Vaud, Switzerland
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    Default Re: Fecal notes

    Quote Originally Posted by David Ruskin View Post
    I am not aware of anyone in France producing Civet or Castoreum absolutes; and I repeat I do to know of any major fragrance house that now uses them. It may be that they are produced for the Asian market; and I have no doubt that they are produced in China and India.

    However Lyn's list has floored me. I really was not aware that IFF produced Civet etc. IFF Perfumers don't use them for European and American customers.

    Many (most) customers of fragrances do not want animal products in their fragrances as it is really bad PR.

    The amount of materials used in Chinese medicines is vast. Rhinoceros are being hunted to extinction because of it. Tonquin Musk Deer is nearly extinct because of it. I would say that the amount of materials used in Chinese medicine far outweighs those used in Perfumery. But as has been pointed out, this is all mere speculation.
    David again I would always defer to your knowledge but here I am confused as my little bottle of Castoreum abs from a certain French supplier says "Origine: France," Adam at Hermitage says his is also made in France "from arguably the most respected Grasse based company..." and Paul Mentions Charabot who also have both products listed: http://www.charabot.com/raw-material...ds-absolutes/C so whether actually produced in France may be impossible to determine, at least a few reputable French suppliers are selling it as their own, and with standard packaging of 5kgs of absolute, they must be selling to more than just a few artisan/hobby perfumers... as you say, maybe all for the Chinese medicine market, but I imagine the Chinese would just import their own raw materials and make it themselves rather than buy from a pricey perfume supply company from Grasse.

  54. #54

    Default Re: Fecal notes

    It could be that the raw excrement are collected in the east, and some suppliers sell it for perfumery, where it's extracted in France..

  55. #55

    Default Re: Fecal notes

    One thing's for sure - we'll never know

  56. #56

    Default Re: Fecal notes

    I am not sure if I enjoy fecal notes or not; I shall wipe my cat's butt with a brick of incense charcoal and light it. I'll let you all know how it goes.

  57. #57

    Default Re: Fecal notes

    Quote Originally Posted by gecko214 View Post
    David again I would always defer to your knowledge but here I am confused as my little bottle of Castoreum abs from a certain French supplier says "Origine: France," Adam at Hermitage says his is also made in France "from arguably the most respected Grasse based company..." and Paul Mentions Charabot who also have both products listed: http://www.charabot.com/raw-material...ds-absolutes/C so whether actually produced in France may be impossible to determine, at least a few reputable French suppliers are selling it as their own, and with standard packaging of 5kgs of absolute, they must be selling to more than just a few artisan/hobby perfumers... as you say, maybe all for the Chinese medicine market, but I imagine the Chinese would just import their own raw materials and make it themselves rather than buy from a pricey perfume supply company from Grasse.
    I'm as confused as everyone else, now. I still maintain that no large fragrance house uses Civet or Castoreum for fragrances designed for Europe or America. If French ingredient suppliers are producing and advertising their products, they must be selling it somewhere. Maybe the big houses do use these animal products, and have been lying all the time. Or maybe the producers are selling their products elsewhere.

  58. #58

    Default Re: Fecal notes

    I bought some civet paste from an Italian company--profumo.it--and have tinctured it to 2 dilutions. It has a lovely almost irresistible fruity fragrance but is still plenty funky. It's not fecal at all. Civet absolute, however, and even more so civetone, do smell fecal. I don't tend to use them.

  59. #59

    Default Re: Fecal notes

    If it's of interest to anyone, I make my own castoreum tincture from beaver gland puree that I buy from a trappers' site. It smells comparable to a sample I bought from ilprofumo.it. I have a terrible weakness for animal products but manage to keep my hands off deer musk which, despite being my favorite smell in the world, is out of the question for ethical reasons. The cultivated Chinese deer musk does not compare to the wild variety.
    Last edited by James Peterson; 24th February 2014 at 03:27 PM.

  60. #60

    Default Re: Fecal notes

    Quote Originally Posted by James Peterson View Post
    If it's of interest to anyone, I make my own castoreum tincture from beaver gland puree that I buy from a trappers' site.
    I too make a tincture from the dried gland, not a puree, and also obtained from a Trapper's Site. It is by far as strong as you could possibly want. I puit the material into a jar, and poured the alcohol to cover, and then heated the alcohl in the microwave until just before boiling, let cool then repeated. The result is so strong and amazing. The Material surely could have been tinctured again even, as when you take the cap off, it knocks you over... both before AND after tincturing...

    PK
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

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