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  1. #1

    Default Advice on adding a baked/roasted nut scent that doesn't overpower?

    This is my first post to the forum; I've been reading this forum for a while (astounding resource for scents). I'm a neophyte blender who's mixed up a few basic essential oil scents; I've decided to be ambitious and create a real (and particular) scent for myself and want to avoid messing it up completely and giving up in frustration.

    What I really want to make is a scent with the same kind of base and notes as a favorite pastry of mine: orange blossom water, honey, a touch of lemon and vanilla, and an almond base. I want it to be subtle, like the scent of the pastry, not "Orange! Vanilla! Honey! Almond!" (Nothing that screams.) The other things I think I can do (I think so, anyhow...with experimentation), but figuring out a simple (beginner) note for a subtle baked almond scent eludes me. The "almond" fragrances are far too much; I need a soft nutty note. I've got benzoin as a base note, and I've ordered a very small quantity of beeswax absolute; I have a notion the two in concert might fill in the gap, making an actual "nut" note unnecessary.

    Is that a completely off-base notion? Could anyone make a suggestion on how a beginner (whose reach is probably exceeding her grasp) could get something like that baked-nut note simply? Thanks in advance.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Advice on adding a baked/roasted nut scent that doesn't overpower?

    Have you tried bitter almond oil in strong dilution? I've seen Hermitage carry almond pyrazine, but I've never smelled it..

  3. #3

    Default Re: Advice on adding a baked/roasted nut scent that doesn't overpower?

    I was considering bitter almond (or what is called bitter almond, apparently). Very diluted might take down the dominance of it...

    Thanks!

  4. #4

    Default Re: Advice on adding a baked/roasted nut scent that doesn't overpower?

    Cooked and foody smells can often be duplicated with the judicious use of Pyrazines. Be careful if you use these as they are usually very very strong (use a 0.01% solution or even 0.001%). If you Google "The Smell of Pyrazines" you should find the site of Leffingwell and Associates, which has a list of various Pyrazines and what they smell of. There are several that smell nutty, and even some that smell of pastry. God luck; and be careful handling these.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Advice on adding a baked/roasted nut scent that doesn't overpower?

    I recall seeing a formula for a vanilla cookie accord. What was interesting is that it contained acetanisole as well as acetyl pyrazine, which smell like popcorn or cornchips. The other conponents were vanillin, ethyl vanillin and maltol I think. I imagine a minute amount of almond pyrazine ( 2-methoxy-3-methyl pyrazine ), other almond notes and butter absolute would work well too.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Advice on adding a baked/roasted nut scent that doesn't overpower?

    I read an article about hazelnut co2, might be interesting too, since you don't want somthing that is overly bitter or to overpower the scent.

    http://theperfumegarden.wordpress.co...ut-in-nutella/



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  7. #7

    Default Re: Advice on adding a baked/roasted nut scent that doesn't overpower?

    David - is this why my cocoa co2 so strong compared to most other oils? (I mean that this distillation
    contains a lot of pyrazines..)

  8. #8

    Default Re: Advice on adding a baked/roasted nut scent that doesn't overpower?

    The hazelnut CO2 sounds lovely, if I can locate a reasonably-priced source for it (a couple of the elements I'm planning to use were "better quality" -- i.e., pricier -- so I'd like to keep the remainder economical where possible -- especially as this is a beginner project.) Thanks for suggesting it.

    Pyrazine also sounds like a good option; I found this:
    http://shop.perfumersapprentice.com/...zine-5-pg.aspx

    Which comes somewhat diluted (though clearly would need further). A nutty graham-cracker scent would be close. Does this look like an apt choice? At that price, I'd feel fine with buying it as an experiment (even if i chose not t use it) although its description is more about the flavor.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Advice on adding a baked/roasted nut scent that doesn't overpower?

    Hmm, after posting that response about the acetyl pyrazine, I re-read Kennel No5's mention of popcorn and corn chips and re-read the product's description. If corn is a major note, that product's probably wrong for this. I'll look at that list again...

  10. #10

    Default Re: Advice on adding a baked/roasted nut scent that doesn't overpower?

    As I suggested before, look at the Leffingwell site. It lists many Pyrazines, with an odour description. Once you have a name then you can search for a supplier.

    Nizan, I have no idea why your Cocoa CO2 is so strong to you. I have never found it to be especially strong; but to each his own. No doubt there are Pyrazines present in Cocoa.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Advice on adding a baked/roasted nut scent that doesn't overpower?

    Looking at the Leffingwell list more carefully, it looks like 2-ethyl-3,6-dimethylpyrazine and 2-ethyl-3-methoxypyrazine look like good possibilities (I'm inclined to avoid anything with "potato" as a descriptor). Thanks!

  12. #12

    Default Re: Advice on adding a baked/roasted nut scent that doesn't overpower?

    Iíd be looking at Nutty Pyrazine for this I think - 5H-5-Methyl-6,7-dihydrocyclopenta[b]pyrazine - sweet, nutty, roasted, toasted, grainy, coffee and corn notes - CAS number 20407-84-5

    Just as powerful as the other pyrazines already mentioned and combines quite well with them.
    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

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    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Iím happy to quote: if you want free advice, thatís what these forums are for
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  13. #13

    Default Re: Advice on adding a baked/roasted nut scent that doesn't overpower?

    Quote Originally Posted by Meriem View Post
    Looking at the Leffingwell list more carefully, it looks like 2-ethyl-3,6-dimethylpyrazine and 2-ethyl-3-methoxypyrazine look like good possibilities (I'm inclined to avoid anything with "potato" as a descriptor). Thanks!
    Ditto on Davod's advice. I smelled a commercial chocolate accord that overdid the pyrazines (I believe) and the effect was terible. I can't stand that stale junk food smell, like something from an abandoned 7-11 store, and the effect was lingering after everything else faded. (Caveat, I've never worked with pyrazines, partially due to fear.)

    I'd like to isolate the nutty note of mysore.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Advice on adding a baked/roasted nut scent that doesn't overpower?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Bartlett View Post
    I’d be looking at Nutty Pyrazine for this I think - 5H-5-Methyl-6,7-dihydrocyclopenta[b]pyrazine - sweet, nutty, roasted, toasted, grainy, coffee and corn notes - CAS number 20407-84-5

    Just as powerful as the other pyrazines already mentioned and combines quite well with them.
    Thank you; those sound like the right notes. I'll search for that.

    DrSmellThis, stale junk food from an abandoned 7-11...I can picture that smell all too well, and that's exactly what I'm hoping to avoid (sounds like the stench of overeating-induced nightmares.)

  15. #15

    Default Re: Advice on adding a baked/roasted nut scent that doesn't overpower?

    I cannot repeat too often my warnings about handling Pyrazines; they are strong and tenacious. A little goes a very long way, and they are easy to over dose. When at the right level they can work really well, slightly too much and it is a disaster.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Advice on adding a baked/roasted nut scent that doesn't overpower?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Ruskin View Post
    I cannot repeat too often my warnings about handling Pyrazines; they are strong and tenacious. A little goes a very long way, and they are easy to over dose. When at the right level they can work really well, slightly too much and it is a disaster.
    After reading more (especially the cautionary tales), I think they might require more skill in using than I credit myself with (also, find a supplier who will ship it here...). I've found the hazelnut CO2 and "bitter almond" (extracted from fruit pits, I think), so I'll probably go with judicious use of one of those.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Advice on adding a baked/roasted nut scent that doesn't overpower?

    Quick question: what about homofuraneol -- described in the Leffingwell as "strong roast sweet"? I am seeing it referred to with the descriptors sweet, caramel, "bready", and almond on a couple of supplier sites. I haven't smelled it, but am wondering if it is heavily caramel (as in, this is all it would evoke -- some caramel element would be good)...is anyone familiar with it enough to say if it is a "baked pastry" possibility?
    Last edited by Meriem; 18th March 2014 at 10:07 PM. Reason: clarity

  18. #18

  19. #19

    Default Re: Advice on adding a baked/roasted nut scent that doesn't overpower?

    Thank you; it was looking at the Good Scents "all odors" listing that led me to wonder about furaneol...analyzing the scent of the baked pastry further, it would have to have a burnt-caramelized sugar note in with almonds. At least one supplier lists "almond" as one of the notes of the furaneol, along with "caramel" (acetyl furan is listed under the roasted almond scents, so I'm guessing that there's a similar component and scent element there...like furfural. But I'm no chemist.) After reading the caveats here and on other threads I'm a bit hesitant to use pyrazines yet, so my choices are limited (and also limited by what I can acquire readily.)

  20. #20

    Default Re: Advice on adding a baked/roasted nut scent that doesn't overpower?

    I'm usually lazy diluting from 100% to 0.1%, but if you buy pyrazines at 1%, then it shouldn't really oppose any problem to dilute them to 0.01%, so not sure you should be that hesitant..
    I'll get a pyrazine tomorrow, so I'll let you know..

  21. #21

    Default Re: Advice on adding a baked/roasted nut scent that doesn't overpower?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nizan View Post
    I'm usually lazy diluting from 100% to 0.1%, but if you buy pyrazines at 1%, then it shouldn't really oppose any problem to dilute them to 0.01%, so not sure you should be that hesitant..
    I'll get a pyrazine tomorrow, so I'll let you know..
    I'd be interested in hearing how you get on with the pyrazine -- and you're surely correct about being too hesitant, considering it already comes diluted to 1% (just don't spill any, apparently). What note are you after?

    I received the beeswax absolute today, and can picture exactly how it would work in a pastry note (along with the honey note -- it's got a lot of depth, this stuff). It occurred to me that once I've acquired all the likely elements, I'll have to make a batch of the pastry to really analyze how the scents of it fit together. In the name of science, as it were...

  22. #22

    Default Re: Advice on adding a baked/roasted nut scent that doesn't overpower?

    I've received several pyrazine samples in the past. DO NOT OPEN THEM INSIDE YOUR HOUSE.

    DO NOT SNIFF DIRECTLY and right from the bottle. You could easily burn your nose.

    If you have access to a fume hood USE IT when diluting pyrazines. Or do it outside in an enclosed box while your nose is in the wind and breeze. I have diluted several pyrazines down to 1:10,000 and still they are so very strong....

    Do not take my advice lightly.

    PK
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  23. #23

    Default Re: Advice on adding a baked/roasted nut scent that doesn't overpower?

    I've gotten homofurunol from PA before. Yes, it's rather caramellic. I think of it as having a slightly 'bread pudding' aspect. It has a bit of the roasted note to it, and I can see how it can be used in coffee type accords. To me, it doesn't have the fruitiness of, say, ethyl maltol, and is less maple than caramel furanone.

  24. #24

    Default Re: Advice on adding a baked/roasted nut scent that doesn't overpower?

    Paul - funny that I read that after smelling the earthy pyrazine from Hermitage.. No idea how diluted it is, but between it and the maple furanone, there were a couple chemicals I couldn't smell at all for a while
    Ed - never tried ethyl maltol.. Is it supposed to be fruity? I tried maltol, but it was kind of harsh for me, so I didn't proceed to the ethyl maltol..

  25. #25

    Default Re: Advice on adding a baked/roasted nut scent that doesn't overpower?

    Quote Originally Posted by edshepp View Post
    I've gotten homofurunol from PA before. Yes, it's rather caramellic. I think of it as having a slightly 'bread pudding' aspect. It has a bit of the roasted note to it, and I can see how it can be used in coffee type accords. To me, it doesn't have the fruitiness of, say, ethyl maltol, and is less maple than caramel furanone.
    Wow, your description answered all my possible questions about its scent, and suggests it would work very well for this. Thank you!

    I've now ordered some from PA, and think I'll try it out with a bit of the bitter-almond (made from other things) I received today. I do think I'm not going to attempt pyrazines (though i did also order the safer-sounding hedione to experiment with, pursuant to another thread here).

  26. #26

    Default Re: Advice on adding a baked/roasted nut scent that doesn't overpower?

    I did receive my PA order, so have now tried the homofuranol out. Edshepp, thanks again; your description was dead-on to what I smell in it (I didn't get any maple at all). I've mixed it up with the benzoin and beeswax absolute (I've made base, middle, and top notes all separately). Despite being the element used in the smallest quantity, so far the beeswax absolute is decisively bossing the other two around, which I'm good with. The three together do make something sufficiently baked-sweet enough to please me so far (we'll see how it smells in a few days, and when combined with the other parts; the almond is in the top mix, and it's actually not dominating). Thanks again, everyone; we'll see if this works altogether...

  27. #27

    Default Re: Advice on adding a baked/roasted nut scent that doesn't overpower?

    Did you try the hazelnut Co2? I was diluting some today and this one didn't dilute with ethanol. It separates. I shall treat it as a tincture and shake it every day for three months. It was a lovely gift and it smells wonderful. Just perfect for that nougat aroma thread.

  28. #28
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    Default Re: Advice on adding a baked/roasted nut scent that doesn't overpower?

    The Ambrein accord might provide a good base, it has an "orange cream-sickle" aspect to it, also consider the ethyl vanillin schiffs base for this. Nigella Damascena absolute is an excellent floral honey note. Also, Cabreuva has an aromatic, milky, nuttiness to it that might help reinforce the base but it's more like pine nuts. Mumsy has a good suggestion for the hazelnut absolute too, it's a very warm and inviting smell.
    Last edited by JEBeasley; 11th September 2014 at 10:37 PM.
    Justin E. Beasley

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