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  1. #1

    Default Why are so many people marked as "banned"?

    I'm fairly new here, and an infrequent visitor at that – I have little time to indulge my hobbies. But why is it that, when I read reviews of perfumes I own/lemm, a disproportionate number of the reviewers are marked as "Banned"? Is it a reflection of my bad taste – only evil people care enough about the scents I like to write about them? Surely not. But if not, why? What did they all do?
    Currently wearing: Déclaration by Cartier

  2. #2
    Lifelong Sniffaholic
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    Default Re: Why are so many people marked as "banned"?

    All forums have rules, and those banned individuals persistently broke the forum rules in their own unique ways. There isn't a "one size fits all" answer beyond that.

    The link to the Code of Conduct is on the right upper part of each page under the Advance Search link so we can all acquaint ourselves with them. They used to be harder to find, and a bit stricter in some ways. But now we really have no excuse.



  3. #3
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    Default Re: Why are so many people marked as "banned"?

    Yes, it is sad that so many knowledgeable members broke so many rules or otherwise engaged in constant attacks on others here. Some of them were excellent reviewers.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Why are so many people marked as "banned"?

    I was going to ask this myself. There were a couple of BN'ers that look like they recently got banned. They were a big part of the community, and had some great input. Are any of these BN'ers suspended, or are they banned permanently?
    Current Top 10:
    Creed Green Irish Tweed
    Creed Silver Mountain Water
    Creed Royal Oud
    Amouage Jubilation XXV
    Tom Ford Tuscan Leather
    Tom Ford Amber Absolute
    Tom Ford Italian Cypress
    Serge Lutens Ambre Sultan
    Amouage Interlude Man
    YSL Rive Gauche Pour Homme

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Why are so many people marked as "banned"?

    The thing is, we don't (like many places) remove content from banned users, unless it is truly objectionable. So after a while, posts by banned members become noticeable. But it was not always that way. Even in 2008, posts from banned users did not come up very often, except on Creed threads, which have always been something of an exception. Other than spammers, trolls, shills, and people with hidden agendas of various kinds, the reality is that only a few "knowledgeable" members are banned per year. But over so many years, that adds up to a fair number of posts and reviews.

    At least, that's my opinion of why we see it.

    Valued members are among the most painful bans, and those bans are not done without considerable reflection and debate among the mods and admins. Don't think for a moment that they are done lightly. And some bans are "voluntary", but people don't realize it. Basically, a senior member or a mod will "offer his or her resignation" on an issue - or leave for very legitimate personal reasons - or even resign outright - and that may include leaving the site and retiring the username. We do not publicize the circumstances - but users who leave are free to contact their friends and spread the word by PM. Sometimes it's not as bad as what people imagine, or even the opposite. Sometimes it is much more lurid than people imagine.

    Privacy is something that we really try to respect, but we can't demonstrate it without violating it. Which is why we really can't comment on specific cases, other than to say that some bans are permanent, and some are just temporary. You are likely to see temporary ones before permanent ones - particularly with valued members, unless it's a resignation, in which case it is often sudden and frequently with the expectation that reasons not be made public.

    I hope this helps. You're not alone in missing some banned members - we all do.
    * * * *

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Why are so many people marked as "banned"?

    Thank you Red for clarification and hard work! You always cheer us up!

  7. #7

    Default Re: Why are so many people marked as "banned"?

    Thanks for the explanation Red! Still being newer to the bigger than I thought fragrance world and BN forums in general, I enjoy the vast amount of knowledge provided by most BN'ers. I do have to say that it seems that most members here are very polite, much more polite than members of other forums I belong to that have nothing to do with the fragrance world. So I think that's why I was shocked to see some members recently banned, I didn't think it was necessary here. Very naive of me, lol.
    Last edited by CT3; 21st March 2014 at 03:01 AM.
    Current Top 10:
    Creed Green Irish Tweed
    Creed Silver Mountain Water
    Creed Royal Oud
    Amouage Jubilation XXV
    Tom Ford Tuscan Leather
    Tom Ford Amber Absolute
    Tom Ford Italian Cypress
    Serge Lutens Ambre Sultan
    Amouage Interlude Man
    YSL Rive Gauche Pour Homme

  8. #8

    Default Re: Why are so many people marked as "banned"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redneck Perfumisto View Post
    The thing is, we don't (like many places) remove content from banned users, unless it is truly objectionable. So after a while, posts by banned members become noticeable. But it was not always that way. Even in 2008, posts from banned users did not come up very often, except on Creed threads, which have always been something of an exception. Other than spammers, trolls, shills, and people with hidden agendas of various kinds, the reality is that only a few "knowledgeable" members are banned per year. But over so many years, that adds up to a fair number of posts and reviews.

    At least, that's my opinion of why we see it.

    Valued members are among the most painful bans, and those bans are not done without considerable reflection and debate among the mods and admins. Don't think for a moment that they are done lightly. And some bans are "voluntary", but people don't realize it. Basically, a senior member or a mod will "offer his or her resignation" on an issue - or leave for very legitimate personal reasons - or even resign outright - and that may include leaving the site and retiring the username. We do not publicize the circumstances - but users who leave are free to contact their friends and spread the word by PM. Sometimes it's not as bad as what people imagine, or even the opposite. Sometimes it is much more lurid than people imagine.

    Privacy is something that we really try to respect, but we can't demonstrate it without violating it. Which is why we really can't comment on specific cases, other than to say that some bans are permanent, and some are just temporary. You are likely to see temporary ones before permanent ones - particularly with valued members, unless it's a resignation, in which case it is often sudden and frequently with the expectation that reasons not be made public.

    I hope this helps. You're not alone in missing some banned members - we all do.
    Yes thing have certainly gotten better after the last new wave of mods were assigned.
    for swap/sale:



  9. #9
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    Default Re: Why are so many people marked as "banned"?

    Sounds intriguing. That said, I find 99 percent of the posts here to be appropriate and respectful. It's such a pleasure. Thank you, all!

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Why are so many people marked as "banned"?

    Quote Originally Posted by CapriDog View Post
    Thank you Red for clarification and hard work! You always cheer us up!
    Thanks! I try to help people to see as many sides of things as I can. It's really the only way to get close to a true understanding, in our finite way as human beings!

    Quote Originally Posted by CT3 View Post
    Thanks for the explanation Red! Still being newer to the bigger than I thought fragrance world and BN forums in general, I enjoy the vast amount of knowledge provided by most BN'ers. I do have to say that it seems that most members here are very polite, much more polite than members of other forums I belong to that have nothing to do with the fragrance world. So I think that's why I was shocked to see some members recently banned, I didn't think it was necessary here. Very naive of me, lol.
    You're welcome!

    Every place has a culture, and I really enjoy the culture here. It is a refreshing alternative to the rest of the web! Although I readily admit that I enjoy (in moderation) sharp cheese, jalapeños, and the snark, hilarity and smack-down of those "other" places! But if I had to pick one place to be, it would be here.

    Basenotes has always been a very polite place, but just as that reduces the chance of being attacked, it also demands that people have a higher degree of self-control than is needed in some other places. The perfume world - like the beauty industry and design world - has always been a very civilized place, with a strong influence from women and gay people. People who step into that world are sometimes not ready for the culture shock, despite the fact that it's actually very welcoming. I liken it to a classy saloon in the middle of the Wild West. Leave your guns at the door, be nice to the ladies and gents, and just have a good time. And since you can't get dealt into a game in this particular salon without 500 rounds or a year on the tab, there's precious little cheating. It's a good place.



    "I'll have another shot of Dior Addict EDP, if you please! And a round of Aventus for the boys."
    * * * *

  11. #11

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    Default Re: Why are so many people marked as "banned"?

    I'll admit I've been concerned about a rash of locked threads and bans in recent weeks/months. It's possible that there's more going on than I can read in a thread, but a few of these threads have left me wondering what the transgression was, while some seriously ugly comments in other threads go unremarked.

    Just to be clear: I don't advocate banning more people. I'd rather debate objectionable opinions (e.g., old people smell bad because they can't be bothered to bathe) than ban them, but I know the moderators walk a fine line between encouraging useful debate and letting things go totally off the rails, and have difficult choices to make (what if you replaced "old people" with "Asian people" in the above example? What about "gay people?"). It's just that in a few cases recently, it seems totally arbitrary.
    Last edited by Kagey; 21st March 2014 at 04:36 AM.
    Currently wearing: Mitsouko by Guerlain

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Why are so many people marked as "banned"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redneck Perfumisto View Post



    "I'll have another shot of Dior Addict EDP, if you please! And a round of Aventus for the boys."
    It's a classic Red. Thank you!

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Why are so many people marked as "banned"?

    Quote Originally Posted by hedonist222 View Post
    Yes thing have certainly gotten better after the last new wave of mods were assigned.
    Your vote of confidence is truly appreciated, Saif!

    And that brings up a good point. We're always looking for more people who are interested in becoming mods, too. Long-time posters (no set number, really) who are interested in the possibility can always inquire with Dani, or if you'd prefer to talk to a mod you know and have that person drop your name in the hat, feel free to approach any of us. The appointment of new mods is a tricky and sporadic thing, because it takes a lot of Dani's time, but if we know of people who are potentially interested, we can always give Dani and Grant your name when that time comes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trilby Lark View Post
    Sounds intriguing. That said, I find 99 percent of the posts here to be appropriate and respectful. It's such a pleasure. Thank you, all!
    I agree - thanks to all of you posters out there, who make my job incredibly easy. It really is a pleasure!
    * * * *

  14. #14

    Default Re: Why are so many people marked as "banned"?

    Will posting on this thread get me banned?

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Why are so many people marked as "banned"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kagey View Post
    I'll admit I've been concerned about a rash of locked threads and bans in recent weeks/months. It's possible that there's more going on than I can read in a thread, but a few of these threads have left me wondering what the transgression was, while some seriously ugly comments in other threads go unremarked.

    Just to be clear: I don't advocate banning more people. I'd rather debate objectionable opinions (e.g., old people smell bad because they can't be bothered to bathe) than ban them, but I know the moderators walk a fine line between encouraging useful debate and letting things go totally off the rails, and have difficult choices to make (what if you replaced "old people" with "Asian people" in the above example? What about "gay people?"). It's just that in a few cases recently, it seems totally arbitrary.
    Yes - I agree, Kagey - we are not always completely up-front about why threads are being locked, and the mods are actually agreeing in our discussions that we need to be more transparent about what we're doing. In a lot of these cases, it may actually be borderline trolling that we are trying to discourage without going to the full definition of trolling. But that is a very hard thing to call, and even if we try to be consistent, it will likely lead to as many "hard rule errors" as we will get otherwise from soft rules.

    The mods NEED to be called on things sometimes. One of the best ways to deal with this is to approach Dani, our community manager. She can't really react in real time - and you cannot expect a quick response, because anything she deals with is something that will require a solution that will not please everybody equally. But she needs to hear from people to know how people are perceiving the moderation. Approaching the mods can help, but so can going to the next level.

    In line with the saloon analogy, we want things to be lively - we just don't want them getting out of hand. There is a fine line between coming up with interesting stuff and trolling. Not all of us perceive that line to be in the same place. People are free to voice their opinions, hopefully gently, to help the group reach a kind of consensus - and to educate the mods as well. Let us know that the thread is NOT offending you. And let your fellow BNers know - very kindly - when they need to cool it so the thread stays on the rails. Some of the best moderation is self-moderation. I've seen threads where people dealt with touchy subjects in amazing style - it just blew my mind that I didn't have to do a THING as a moderator! What was clear to me was that the users knew each other, and they played just a bit to the 4th wall, so that the mods and the rest of BN knew they weren't really putting each other down, and were just having fun. It was pretty hilarious, too. Just wanted to say WELL DONE, people. Let's have more of those kind of threads!!!
    * * * *

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Why are so many people marked as "banned"?

    Quote Originally Posted by TLS View Post
    Will posting on this thread get me banned?
    I will consult the Oracle at Aventus for an answer to that!



    300 - the Oracle

    Seriously, not without a couple of mods and multiple senior members having to go with you!
    * * * *

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Why are so many people marked as "banned"?

    Quote Originally Posted by hedonist222 View Post
    Yes thing have certainly gotten better after the last new wave of mods were assigned.
    +1. There will always be uncertainty during a period of transition but I'm genuinely delighted with the way things have panned out. Inspirational choices and a great job all round .

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Why are so many people marked as "banned"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Redneck Perfumisto View Post
    Thanks! I try to help people to see as many sides of things as I can. It's really the only way to get close to a true understanding, in our finite way as human beings!



    You're welcome!

    Every place has a culture, and I really enjoy the culture here. It is a refreshing alternative to the rest of the web! Although I readily admit that I enjoy (in moderation) sharp cheese, jalapeños, and the snark, hilarity and smack-down of those "other" places! But if I had to pick one place to be, it would be here.

    Basenotes has always been a very polite place, but just as that reduces the chance of being attacked, it also demands that people have a higher degree of self-control than is needed in some other places. The perfume world - like the beauty industry and design world - has always been a very civilized place, with a strong influence from women and gay people. People who step into that world are sometimes not ready for the culture shock, despite the fact that it's actually very welcoming. I liken it to a classy saloon in the middle of the Wild West. Leave your guns at the door, be nice to the ladies and gents, and just have a good time. And since you can't get dealt into a game in this particular salon without 500 rounds or a year on the tab, there's precious little cheating. It's a good place.



    "I'll have another shot of Dior Addict EDP, if you please! And a round of Aventus for the boys."

    Great one!

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Why are so many people marked as "banned"?



    "No Aventus for me, ma'am, If you can make mine Tom of Finland I'd be much obliged."
    "Are you a god?"
    "No"
    "Are you a wizard?"
    "No"
    "Are you a man?"
    "No"
    "Then what are you?"
    "I am awake.."

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Why are so many people marked as "banned"?

    Just to add that we new mods are still feeling our way around the new system of moderation (and our roles in general) - infractions on Huddler occasionally resulted in automatic suspension by the system, for example.

    The system has changed to a more flexible one and there are no infractions now so the moderation has been adapting to this.
    This is explained at the end of the new Code of Conduct.

    Sure, we'll (unfortunately) make mistakes from time to time but members are always free to pm to discuss anything bothering them, or ask for advice on site-related matters - and many do.
    Mostly, these exchanges are as polite as the majority of posts here and it's really nice when members, often quite unexpectedly, communicate their thoughts.
    As has been mentioned in the past - we're members too.

    Offensive posts are not the only issues faced by members of the community - there are less public ways in which rules may be broken, resulting in actions that may not be understood by members not involved.

    Fortunately, these situations are uncommon - and thanks to a great bunch of people for making this community what it is.
    Last edited by lpp; 21st March 2014 at 09:56 AM.

  21. #21
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    Default Re: Why are so many people marked as "banned"?

    Kagey, Red and lpp - you all hit a lot of nails right on the head.

    There is indeed a very fine line between ensuring the conversation continues in a civilised manner and putting a stop to when things really get out of hand. We also stand right in between the turning point for offence - one man's freedom fighter, is another man's terrorist. Likewise in the virtual world, i.e. on the 'net, one person's opinion can cause quite a bit of offence. As Red said, the vast majority of people here get along quietly and do not cause offence in their lifetimes. In my days before joining the mods, if I didn't like a thread or couldn't stand a person's attitude, they went onto my ignore list. This is exactly what Red was getting at with his saloon analogy. Leave the guns at the door and treat everyone with respect.

    We obviously have a set of rules here to protect the community and the members. For example, we have rules for selling things here. If we were to relax them, BN would just turn into another version of eBay. I don't think we could cope with the additional traffic or indeed the rogue traders that we will undoubtedly have to deal with. As a community we just can't ignore some points as our future depends on them.

    Unfortunately, everywhere you go there will be issues. The few that do spoil it though, whether they are just everyday spammers (anyone care to watch a Thor movie or whatever the heck these people advertise? ), or childish individuals that get a little too passionate about a fragrance or concept (from both sides of the argument), rarely realise the damage they are doing. The mods that are here are all volunteers. They cover the site 24hrs, 7 days a week from all sorts of wide ranging time zones. If something boils over, it's usually down to one person to have to run after everything. Then there's the admin side involved - filling in reports and so on. Not easy and quite time consuming. If we were to spend that time trying to resolve an issue through discussion, it isn't always that easy or straight forward. Naturally, that's our preferred option, but that's the most time consuming option of all. This is why the three strike rule takes place. We give individuals a chance to reform before issuing a 7 day ban or a 6 week or ultimately a permanent ban. Not every site can put their name to that, so I think most of us should be grateful that we are quite a tolerant place.

    Finally, I just want to add another point that often may be missed by the members. Let's find the time to report something if we're not happy about someone's behaviour, if we get offended, if we see someone blatantly braking the rules and so on. Most people do in fact report these things quite quickly and we are obliged to respond or keep an eye on things at least. But for those that do try to take matters in their own hands, that's when we get into a right pickle.

    We all find it very rewarding helping our community out and strive to make this place the best place around to discuss perfumes and all things that smell good. Hopefully, we will all get there in the end!
    Last edited by rum; 21st March 2014 at 11:16 AM.

  22. #22
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    Default Re: Why are so many people marked as "banned"?

    I believe it was possibly hednic who mentioned that whilst criticising a post is ok, attacking the poster isn't. I think this site has the balance between freedom of speech and protection from insults about right.

  23. #23

    Default Re: Why are so many people marked as "banned"?

    I think we have the best mods ever currently. I know because I have sailed 'close to the wind' on a few occasions.

    However, maybe for one day a month we could have a 'free for all' where anything goes and we could all self govern.

    The mods would get a day off and we could all have a right 'royal rumpus'

    The mods can pick up the pieces the next day

  24. #24

    Default Re: Why are so many people marked as "banned"?

    It's a relatively strict board where some sensitive souls can get easily offended. Some of the posters on the other hand were uncultured savages and evil trolls.

  25. #25
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    Default Re: Why are so many people marked as "banned"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaern View Post
    I think we have the best mods ever currently. I know because I have sailed 'close to the wind' on a few occasions.

    However, maybe for one day a month we could have a 'free for all' where anything goes and we could all self govern.

    The mods would get a day off and we could all have a right 'royal rumpus'

    The mods can pick up the pieces the next day
    Great idea, provided we can put you and martinjo in charge of all the Creed threads. I'm off to get the popcorn ....

  26. #26

    Default Re: Why are so many people marked as "banned"?

    Quote Originally Posted by JON RODGERS View Post
    Great idea, provided we can put you and martinjo in charge of all the Creed threads. I'm off to get the popcorn ....
    Hah -- I don't want to become some sort of Creed 'warden' for the site. I call 'em when I see 'em that's all.

    It amazes me some other basenoters can't identify these marketing creeps. Maybe they live in some parallel Mary Poppins type world and visit Earth only occasionally?

  27. #27
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    Default Re: Why are so many people marked as "banned"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaern View Post
    Hah -- I don't want to become some sort of Creed 'warden' for the site. I call 'em when I see 'em that's all.

    It amazes me some other basenoters can't identify these marketing creeps. Maybe they live in some parallel Mary Poppins type world and visit Earth only occasionally?
    I view such people as blessed, actually, but I know what you mean. My misspent youth has helped me to be situationally aware, so to speak, but I sometimes envy those who trust fully and without question.

    I do try to steal as much of their optimism as I can!
    * * * *

  28. #28
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    Default Re: Why are so many people marked as "banned"?

    Sometimes it makes me think of the saying about being a college professor- "It's like High school, except the stakes are much lower".

  29. #29
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    Default Re: Why are so many people marked as "banned"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kagey View Post
    I'll admit I've been concerned about a rash of locked threads and bans in recent weeks/months. It's possible that there's more going on than I can read in a thread, but a few of these threads have left me wondering what the transgression was, while some seriously ugly comments in other threads go unremarked.

    Just to be clear: I don't advocate banning more people. I'd rather debate objectionable opinions (e.g., old people smell bad because they can't be bothered to bathe) than ban them, but I know the moderators walk a fine line between encouraging useful debate and letting things go totally off the rails, and have difficult choices to make (what if you replaced "old people" with "Asian people" in the above example? What about "gay people?"). It's just that in a few cases recently, it seems totally arbitrary.
    I'll go further. That comment was about "old women." As a new member, a woman, and someone in her 40s, I was very put off.

    Unfortunately, I sometimes sense that there is a casual acceptance of sexism, and also ageism, here. And that makes me feel uncomfortable here at times. I'm a longtime member of other hobby forums, two of which have no moderators. I became a partner in the 1990s in a male-dominated firm in a male-dominated profession. Yet it's here, in a fragrance forum, in 2014, that I've been taken aback, frequently, by expressions of outright sexism.

    I understand that I can ignore those people. I understand you like "interesting posts." I understand that you are a male-dominated forum. However, I am not sure I understand why there can't be a little bit more attention paid to making this a comfortable and welcoming place for women, as well. If enough people say things like that, you can't really put it down to one rogue poster, and you can't really ignore it. Instead, it becomes a part of the site's atmosphere. As Kagey suggests, try substituting another minority group* for "women" or "old women" and see if the powers that be would be comfortable letting a comment like that slide.

    Just food for thought, I hope, and I hope I don't overstep. I like this site and would like to feel welcome in other places than the Female Fragrance Forum.

    *Women are very much a minority on this site, at least in terms of posts.
    Currently wearing: No. 5 by Chanel

  30. #30
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    Default Re: Why are so many people marked as "banned"?

    Yes, I really wish people had the common sense to know that making these kinds of assumptions really is just plain bad manners. But what can you do? I used to work in a bar. Every season a new crop of 'legals' came in ordering liquor for the first time. They didn't know the ropes. They didn't know how to treat the help. They didn't know how to tip. And they didn't know what to order without getting sick. It was the same thing constantly. Newbies.

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