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  1. #1

    Default Always Vanilla Ad - UGH!

    Of course, Many of you know my hatred of Vanilla... :-)

    So today, I finally sprung for a years subscription to Perfumer-Flavorist Magazine.

    And then I see this ad below UGH! :-(

    Just thought I'd give you my complaint today, in as much fun as possible... :-)

    PKAlways Vanilla Ad - UGH.jpg
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  2. #2

    Default Re: Always Vanilla Ad - UGH!

    I just ordered 2Kg of Vanillin - want some? :-P
    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Iím happy to quote: if you want free advice, thatís what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Always Vanilla Ad - UGH!

    Vanilla / Vanillin / Ethyl Vanillin is of course the worst thing wrong with the world! :-)

    PK
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  4. #4

    Default Re: Always Vanilla Ad - UGH!

    2Kg?!
    Paul - ever tried that ultravanil I keep reading about lately?

  5. #5

    Default Re: Always Vanilla Ad - UGH!

    No, no reason to even try ultravanil, esp since my Australian Perfume House commission that wanted a Vanilla Perfume vanished because she decided against pursuing this dream of hers to open a new Fragrance business.

    PK
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  6. #6

    Default Re: Always Vanilla Ad - UGH!

    You are screwed, Paul. Psychological research shows vanilla to be consistently the most liked scent among humans.

    I've never liked gourmands. But I'm biting the bullet and making one. When I concluded I needed to go in that direction I thought to myself, "Oh, no!" But now I'm into it, ha ha. The key for me is to just forget that it's a gourmand; to not think of it as a plate of cloyingly sweet cake with like an inch of icing on it. Since civet smells like tooth decay, that will have to be the main ingredient.(j/k)

  7. #7

    Default Re: Always Vanilla Ad - UGH!

    What's this buzz on Ultravanil? I think I remember reading about that--that it has a very 'vanilla absolute' note. Does anyone know if there's a place to get small hobbyist quantities?

    I'll admit it--I love vanilla. Once, during my drench-myself-in-ComptoirsudPacifique-vanillas-at-Sephora phase, after I hugged a friend, he described it as "like being mugged by a bakery."

  8. #8

    Default Re: Always Vanilla Ad - UGH!

    I love Vanilla - specially the pods. They have such a sensual aroma!

  9. #9

    Default Re: Always Vanilla Ad - UGH!

    Quote Originally Posted by edshepp View Post
    What's this buzz on Ultravanil? I think I remember reading about that--that it has a very 'vanilla absolute' note. Does anyone know if there's a place to get small hobbyist quantities?

    I'll admit it--I love vanilla. Once, during my drench-myself-in-ComptoirsudPacifique-vanillas-at-Sephora phase, after I hugged a friend, he described it as "like being mugged by a bakery."
    Ultravanil was made by Quest, so now will be made and sold by Givaudan. Anyone who is an agent for Giv. could possible sell small amounts.

    I alwas found Ultravanil difficult to use. It was promoted as a non discolouring Vanilla, but I found it to be far too smoky, phenolic to be of any use. And it stuck out like a sore thumb. I was told that a mixture of Ultravanil and Isobutavan could produce a very good Vanilla note, but I never tried it.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Always Vanilla Ad - UGH!

    Quote Originally Posted by David Ruskin View Post
    Ultravanil was made by Quest, so now will be made and sold by Givaudan. Anyone who is an agent for Giv. could possible sell small amounts.

    I alwas found Ultravanil difficult to use. It was promoted as a non discolouring Vanilla, but I found it to be far too smoky, phenolic to be of any use. And it stuck out like a sore thumb. I was told that a mixture of Ultravanil and Isobutavan could produce a very good Vanilla note, but I never tried it.
    Interesting, ultravanil isnít something Iíve ever used. Itís supposed to be extremely powerful and is restricted by IFRA to 0.1% in Cat 4 fragrances, but as discolouration isnít usually a big issue for me ethyl vanillin always seemed like a better option.

    I have use Isobutavan a bit though, which has a very nice cream-soda type of vanilla scent and is also supposed to be non-discolouring so could be useful from that point of view.
    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Iím happy to quote: if you want free advice, thatís what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Always Vanilla Ad - UGH!

    Paul what happened in your childhood and you dislike vanilla?
    I would be interested to know if there is a vanillic material that a vanilla hater likes though..
    Vanilla absolute maybe?
    I find it so complex and carnal myself, but only used it in traces..

  12. #12

    Default Re: Always Vanilla Ad - UGH!

    I guess that Paul have smelled too many Montale fragrances - a lot of them has the same vanilla smell (that to my mom is Tic-Tac's aroma, and somehow she is spot on with this affirmation).

  13. #13

    Default Re: Always Vanilla Ad - UGH!

    I can almost understand a hatred of the many sickly gourmand overpowering sort of vanilla types, but not so much a delicate natural infusion of the madagascan pod. That is such a different, very spicy, very strong, almost woody, unsweetened delight, so very many miles away from the classic idea of what a typical and cloyingly sticky vanilla scent entails. It would be hard to put them in the same category IMO. All things have their uses.

  14. #14
    gecko214's Avatar
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    Default Re: Always Vanilla Ad - UGH!

    To many I think vanilla has come to mean ho hum or ordinary (in fact the term has now become part of normal usage for this). But I always remember it is in fact one of the most exotic things you can imagine -- it comes from far away tropical places, undergoes a mysterious and arcane process to develop its aroma and it comes from an orchid! Since I started thinking this way I almost always order vanilla ice cream...

  15. #15

    Default Re: Always Vanilla Ad - UGH!

    By the way an awesome vanilla perfume, one of the best I ever smelled is un bois vanille from Serge Lutens. It is a very minimal yet wonderful composition with an overdose of benzyl salicylate that I also love..

  16. #16

    Default Re: Always Vanilla Ad - UGH!

    Surely, the Vanilla Abs is much different than Vanillin... And I do use small amoutns of the Abs sometimes.

    And my analysis of what makes up Chocolate is that milk chocolate is about half vanilla, or at least a large percentage vanilla. So of course, I used vanillin and vanilla abs in my Violet Chocolatier perfume. And I've used tiny amounts of vanillin to slightly warm some scents.

    But my hatred comes from when overused, or used as a major note. these candles in the stores that reek of vanillin, and Coca Cola soda reeks of Vanillin too - this makes it a bit warmer than Pepsi, but I certainly don't find Coca Cola attractive to me.

    Because it is overused, and THE most used flavor and fragrance element sold in the USA, I am surrounded by it and swim in it, culturally. And so, I won't even consider wearing a scent that Vanillin is detectable as a note. Pear and Olive and Flowerbomb, are prime examples of a loaded up vanillin scent that makes me run.

    THERE ARE plenty of fantastic scents without detectable notes of vanilla, this trend is relatively recent too, when scents went this direction, so I am not worried that my viewpoint will make me suffer. I am an oasis from the rot, if you will, just like many classic scents. I don't need or ever want to smell like a kitchen baking cookies, or foist that on someone else. That's up to others. And I'm so grateful to God to have not married an American woman who has fallen for this cultural time period and wants to wear such ghastly perfumes drenched in Vanillin. YAY!

    That's all...

    PK
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  17. #17

    Default Re: Always Vanilla Ad - UGH!

    Quote Originally Posted by David Ruskin View Post
    I alwas found Ultravanil difficult to use. It was promoted as a non discolouring Vanilla, but I found it to be far too smoky, phenolic to be of any use. And it stuck out like a sore thumb. I was told that a mixture of Ultravanil and Isobutavan could produce a very good Vanilla note, but I never tried it.
    A perfumer friend who's no stranger to unusual / difficult materials was the one who told me about this stuff and he mentioned that it was indeed very difficult to use dues its strength. The smoky facets are what intrigue me, as, although I'm like Paul in that materials like Vanillin can be rough unless well-hidden, this one sounds fascinating.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Always Vanilla Ad - UGH!

    Quote Originally Posted by mumsy View Post
    I can almost understand a hatred of the many sickly gourmand overpowering sort of vanilla types, but not so much a delicate natural infusion of the madagascan pod. That is such a different, very spicy, very strong, almost woody, unsweetened delight, so very many miles away from the classic idea of what a typical and cloyingly sticky vanilla scent entails. It would be hard to put them in the same category IMO. All things have their uses.
    I generally despise gourmand scent (barring a few that spin the concept or whatever), but I'm strangely drawn to the materials. I find that trace amounts of maltol or trimethyl pyrazine in non-gourmand blends work wonders to smooth out rough edges. I've been obsessed with CB I Hate Perfume's Burning Leaves for the past few weeks and have been trying to think through how it was done—simply as an educational exercise. Labdanum, guiaicol, and cedar with some of these gourmand materials head in that direction a little.

    P.S. Great to see you back, Mumsy

  19. #19

    Default Re: Always Vanilla Ad - UGH!

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post
    Surely, the Vanilla Abs is much different than Vanillin... And I do use small amoutns of the Abs sometimes.
    The Abs has a strange, dry, almost plastic-y profile to me—I haven't toyed with it much, but it seems to veer away from pure sweetness. A scent like Tobacco Vanille is an absolute killer—truly nauseating (I'll never understand the popularity), and I assume it's using some better quality vanillas (it's a Firmenich "house blend" from what I understand), but it still smells like a Glade candle to me.

    What about Madagascar Vanilla? That strikes me as having a more exotic, almost floral aspect to it.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Always Vanilla Ad - UGH!

    I remember this one being really strange. It's been a while though. From what I remember there was a backbone similar to Cedryl Acetate?

    Quote Originally Posted by deadidol View Post
    I generally despise gourmand scent (barring a few that spin the concept or whatever), but I'm strangely drawn to the materials. I find that trace amounts of maltol or trimethyl pyrazine in non-gourmand blends work wonders to smooth out rough edges. I've been obsessed with CB I Hate Perfume's Burning Leaves for the past few weeks and have been trying to think through how it was done—simply as an educational exercise. Labdanum, guiaicol, and cedar with some of these gourmand materials head in that direction a little.

    P.S. Great to see you back, Mumsy
    Madhat Scents - My personal limited run artisan perfume project.

    *** NEW Lavhim (Lavender, Incense, Candle Wax, Clove, Fir Needles, Cognac & Green Leaves)*** / Jour et la Nuit (17/18th Century Style Chypre - Oakmoss/Resins/Musk/Vintage Civet Tincture.)

  21. #21

    Default Re: Always Vanilla Ad - UGH!

    Quote Originally Posted by rynegne View Post
    I remember this one being really strange. It's been a while though. From what I remember there was a backbone similar to Cedryl Acetate?
    It's essentially a sweet maple / guiaic bomb. Cedryl acetate might be a tad dry. My money's on isobutavan.

  22. #22

    Default Re: Always Vanilla Ad - UGH!

    I'll have to dig up my sample I remember a dry cedar and sweet smoked maple with vanilla undertones (could definitely be isobutavan). Definitely an OD on Guaiacol from what I remember...and this strange note ran through the whole wear I haven't encountered a note like it since since...like a synthetic patchouli? But again it's been a while.

    Quote Originally Posted by deadidol View Post
    It's essentially a sweet maple / guiaic bomb. Cedryl acetate might be a tad dry. My money's on isobutavan.
    Oh, and count me in on not being a vanilla fan outside of the natural absolute.
    Last edited by rynegne; 11th April 2014 at 05:39 PM.
    Madhat Scents - My personal limited run artisan perfume project.

    *** NEW Lavhim (Lavender, Incense, Candle Wax, Clove, Fir Needles, Cognac & Green Leaves)*** / Jour et la Nuit (17/18th Century Style Chypre - Oakmoss/Resins/Musk/Vintage Civet Tincture.)

  23. #23

    Default Re: Always Vanilla Ad - UGH!

    Maybe vanilla is kind of like patchouli. Only very skilled and subtle blends should be attempted. It's possible to use a tiny amount of patchouli in fragrances without anyone knowing it's there. But it provides so much. On the other hand it's so dangerous because it can be so overpowering and obvious if not used carefully. Maybe vanilla is a bit like that.

  24. #24

    Default Re: Always Vanilla Ad - UGH!

    Barry, but the Patchouli refined products are so very nice... I'm hoping to get several Ventos Patchouli products for Perfumer Supply House, since the owner is the USA Ventos rep too. One of them I believe showed up in a GC I had done of Lubin's Idole Edt that I had Linda analyse for me.

    And probably later this year, I'll also get pure Patchoulol for Perfumer Supply House too. That is really cool stuff. But certainly NOT cheap, either...

    PK
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  25. #25

    Default Re: Always Vanilla Ad - UGH!

    ^ What's your take on the Robertet Patchouli Heart? I really liked it. It's like a patchouli in which all the noisy frequencies have been EQd out. It's sits and behaves very well.

  26. #26

    Default Re: Always Vanilla Ad - UGH!

    Quote Originally Posted by deadidol View Post
    ^ What's your take on the Robertet Patchouli Heart? I really liked it. It's like a patchouli in which all the noisy frequencies have been EQd out. It's sits and behaves very well.
    Props for the music analogy. Love musical descriptions of scents

    Please continue on topic, ha ha.

  27. #27

    Default Re: Always Vanilla Ad - UGH!

    Quote Originally Posted by bshell View Post
    Maybe vanilla is kind of like patchouli. Only very skilled and subtle blends should be attempted. It's possible to use a tiny amount of patchouli in fragrances without anyone knowing it's there. But it provides so much. On the other hand it's so dangerous because it can be so overpowering and obvious if not used carefully. Maybe vanilla is a bit like that.
    In my view almost all perfumery ingredients are best used in the way you describe.

    There are exceptions of course; all rules have exceptions, save only this one ;-)

    In general a perfume should smell of itself; if you can, without great effort or skill, determine the individual ingredients then the blending was less fine than it should have been.
    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Iím happy to quote: if you want free advice, thatís what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  28. #28

    Default Re: Always Vanilla Ad - UGH!

    Quote Originally Posted by deadidol View Post
    I generally despise gourmand scent (barring a few that spin the concept or whatever), but I'm strangely drawn to the materials. I find that trace amounts of maltol or trimethyl pyrazine in non-gourmand blends work wonders to smooth out rough edges. I've been obsessed with CB I Hate Perfume's Burning Leaves for the past few weeks and have been trying to think through how it was done—simply as an educational exercise. Labdanum, guiaicol, and cedar with some of these gourmand materials head in that direction a little.

    P.S. Great to see you back, Mumsy
    Thank you honey bunny. Very nice to be able to. I am going to have to go and find my CB burning leaves now. That is a sniffing challenge I just cannot resist.

    Update. Have on CB's 'burning leaves' on one hand and Madagascan vanilla tincture on the other. CB's is a curious one. I had forgotten about this. I'm not familiar with so very many chems and my nose is a bit rusty but I would be rummaging in the labdanum, Cade and birch tar department, and funnily enough, the Madagascan vanilla on the other hand is not so very dissimilar. I wouldn't be surprised because CB uses very fine ingredients in his perfumes. He is a purist like that IMO.

    The reason this vanilla is vastly superior is manifold to my nose. My own sample has been tincturing for a quite a number of years now and has mellowed and matured into the most wonderful spicy, dark black chocolate mixed with deer musk sort of subtlety. Miles and miles away from any vanilla of the sort talked of above. I had nearly forgotten about it. I searched long and hard for the right vanilla to tincture and this was by far the most interesting with huge depth and nearly no sweetness of the cloying kind. This has matured enough to be wearable on its own although still gourmand enough to be mistaken for a chocolate instead of a bun.
    Last edited by mumsy; 11th April 2014 at 10:55 PM. Reason: Adding text

  29. #29

    Default Re: Always Vanilla Ad - UGH!

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Bartlett View Post
    In general a perfume should smell of itself; if you can, without great effort or skill, determine the individual ingredients then the blending was less fine than it should have been.
    Bang on. That is what makes sniffing challenges such fun. I so wish we were still all able to swap internationally like we used to. It was fabulous for learning.

  30. #30

    Default Re: Always Vanilla Ad - UGH!

    Quote Originally Posted by mumsy View Post
    Update. Have on CB's 'burning leaves' on one hand and Madagascan vanilla tincture on the other. CB's is a curious one. I had forgotten about this. I'm not familiar with so very many chems and my nose is a bit rusty but I would be rummaging in the labdanum, Cade and birch tar department, and funnily enough, the Madagascan vanilla on the other hand is not so very dissimilar. I wouldn't be surprised because CB uses very fine ingredients in his perfumes. He is a purist like that IMO.

    The reason this vanilla is vastly superior is manifold to my nose. My own sample has been tincturing for a quite a number of years now and has mellowed and matured into the most wonderful spicy, dark black chocolate mixed with deer musk sort of subtlety. Miles and miles away from any vanilla of the sort talked of above. I had nearly forgotten about it. I searched long and hard for the right vanilla to tincture and this was by far the most interesting with huge depth and nearly no sweetness of the cloying kind. This has matured enough to be wearable on its own although still gourmand enough to be mistaken for a chocolate instead of a bun.
    Whatever it is CB is doing, it's effective without being overly complex. If you're familiar with the dry down of Amouage's Interlude man and Sonoma Scent Studio's Winter Woods, you find a similar aesthetic there—a semi-sweet maple / amber. CB's is more jagged and expressive, but definitely labdanum and, I think, a wallop of guaiac.

    Madagascar vanilla is pretty fascinating, and the notion of a single material working as a complete fragrance is really something, isn't it? I recently got to smell a couple of things that are neither sustainable or affordable for use outside of extremely limited runs, and I'd wear them in a heartbeat as a fragrance as they display a greater complexity and evolve more than half the commercial stuff that's out there today.

  31. #31

    Default Re: Always Vanilla Ad - UGH!

    @mumsy
    Do you tincture the entire pod (split and cut into pieces) or only the pulp (if this is the right term)?
    You cannot control your own population by force, but it can be distracted by consumption.

    Noam Chomsky

  32. #32

    Default Re: Always Vanilla Ad - UGH!

    Quote Originally Posted by Graphite View Post
    @mumsy
    Do you tincture the entire pod (split and cut into pieces) or only the pulp (if this is the right term)?
    I have a feeling I did both from memory. But I would need to check. I made loads of tinctures from a number of different kinds of pods. Plus many other substances at the time. I tend to make my own ingredients where practical just so that I can guarantee purity for my own peace of mind. The types smelled so different from each other. The woody one I was wearing had the whole thing in and was from the best and most moist pod. Split and cut. It has been tincturing for well over three years now. Delicious.

  33. #33

    Default Re: Always Vanilla Ad - UGH!

    I've got different tinctures, too. Grounded, cut, organic, conventional. But I never tinctured pod and pulp separately.
    My next project is to explore the different origins besides Madagascar (Tahiti, Indonesia, Mexico, West Indies). I'll report back in a while.
    You cannot control your own population by force, but it can be distracted by consumption.

    Noam Chomsky

  34. #34

    Default Re: Always Vanilla Ad - UGH!

    Quote Originally Posted by Graphite View Post
    @mumsy
    Do you tincture the entire pod (split and cut into pieces) or only the pulp (if this is the right term)?
    I always tincture the whole pod, cut up into bits: If Iím tincturing I want to capture all the complexity of the material.
    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Iím happy to quote: if you want free advice, thatís what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  35. #35

    Default Re: Always Vanilla Ad - UGH!

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post
    Surely, the Vanilla Abs is much different than Vanillin... And I do use small amoutns of the Abs sometimes.

    And my analysis of what makes up Chocolate is that milk chocolate is about half vanilla, or at least a large percentage vanilla. So of course, I used vanillin and vanilla abs in my Violet Chocolatier perfume. And I've used tiny amounts of vanillin to slightly warm some scents.

    But my hatred comes from when overused, or used as a major note. these candles in the stores that reek of vanillin, and Coca Cola soda reeks of Vanillin too - this makes it a bit warmer than Pepsi, but I certainly don't find Coca Cola attractive to me.

    Because it is overused, and THE most used flavor and fragrance element sold in the USA, I am surrounded by it and swim in it, culturally. And so, I won't even consider wearing a scent that Vanillin is detectable as a note. Pear and Olive and Flowerbomb, are prime examples of a loaded up vanillin scent that makes me run.

    THERE ARE plenty of fantastic scents without detectable notes of vanilla, this trend is relatively recent too, when scents went this direction, so I am not worried that my viewpoint will make me suffer. I am an oasis from the rot, if you will, just like many classic scents. I don't need or ever want to smell like a kitchen baking cookies, or foist that on someone else. That's up to others. And I'm so grateful to God to have not married an American woman who has fallen for this cultural time period and wants to wear such ghastly perfumes drenched in Vanillin. YAY!

    That's all...

    PK
    My wifey abhors it as well Paul...I mean detests it and it cannot hide from her in fragrances. LOL
    Zanshin

  36. #36

    Default Re: Always Vanilla Ad - UGH!

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post
    Barry, but the Patchouli refined products are so very nice... I'm hoping to get several Ventos Patchouli products for Perfumer Supply House, since the owner is the USA Ventos rep too. One of them I believe showed up in a GC I had done of Lubin's Idole Edt that I had Linda analyse for me.

    And probably later this year, I'll also get pure Patchoulol for Perfumer Supply House too. That is really cool stuff. But certainly NOT cheap, either...

    PK
    OOOO....love Idole but never really got any patchouli from it. I cannot wait for the site to launch...really exciting stuff.
    Zanshin

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