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  1. #1

    Default Nature identical compounds

    Hello all. I've been limiting myself to essential oils but now I'd like to include some nature identical synthetic fragrance oils in my blends. Where do I look for them? New Directions Aromatics has a selection but it is quite small. Are there other outlets?

    Is there a resource that lists fragrance oils that are usually nature identical and others that do not occur in nature?

    Also, which accords can never be nature identical? For example, is it impossible for a certain fruit accord like mango to be nature identical?

    Thank you.

    JC

  2. #2
    Paul Kiler
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    Default Re: Nature identical compounds

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Case View Post
    For example, is it impossible for a certain fruit accord like mango to be nature identical?
    JC
    JC, I think that in order to be a nature identical thing there needs to first be a natural extraction from it to begin with. I'm not aware of a Mango scent extraction... (other than the leaves), but not the fruit...

    PK
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  3. #3

    Default Re: Nature identical compounds

    My definition of Nature Identical is a chemical which is found occurring in a natural product (an Essential Oil or Absolute) but which has been made synthetically in a laboratory etc. Sometimes it is not possible to extract the chemical from the natural so it is easier to make it synthetically. Often the synthetic version is much cheaper. Most fruit bases will be synthetic as it is often impossible to extract those chemicals which go to make it from the stating fruit. It may be that many of the chemicals in the base will be nature identical, others will be non nature identical.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Nature identical compounds

    Thank you both for your informative replies.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Ruskin View Post
    It may be that many of the chemicals in the base will be nature identical, others will be non nature identical.
    If I can find out the ingredients of a fragrance oil, is there a way to know which of these ingredients are nature-identical and which are not?

    JC

  5. #5
    Basenotes Junkie
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    Default Re: Nature identical compounds

    It is unlikely. The fragrance house isn't going to divulge it unless they pride themselves on using one or the other (for whatever reason). IN that case their marketing information may disclose it. However it is unlikely. The ingredient declarations will declare the same base chemical (eugenol for instance) whether it comes from a natural or as a lab derived, nature identical synthietic.

    thanks,
    rick

  6. #6

    Default Re: Nature identical compounds

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Case View Post
    Thank you both for your informative replies.



    If I can find out the ingredients of a fragrance oil, is there a way to know which of these ingredients are nature-identical and which are not?

    JC
    If you have the complete formula of the Fragrance oil (including the contents of any base within the fragrance oil) and you know which chemicals are nature identical and which are not, then you will know. You will not know if the chemical has been made synthetically or whether it has been extracted from a natural as Rick has pointed out. Which makes the whole Natural vs. Synthetic argument, so daft.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Nature identical compounds

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Case View Post
    Thank you both for your informative replies.



    If I can find out the ingredients of a fragrance oil, is there a way to know which of these ingredients are nature-identical and which are not?

    JC
    Another factor to consider here is that when we talk about chemicals that occur in nature, we are only talking about those that are known to occur. Many aroma chemicals that have been synthesised in the lab have subsequently been discovered to be present in a natural material. I read a report recently of work on collecting the headspace from rainforest orchids that mentioned the researchers had discovered several materials not previously known to exist in nature.

    Some of the synthetic musks were synthesised prior to being found in natural materials (omega pentadecalactone for example was being sold as Exaltolide prior to being found in angelica root). So now you could say that exaltolide is a nature-identical material, but before that discovery was made it would have been classed as non-nature identical. It’s the same stuff . . .
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    Chris Bartlett
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  8. #8
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    Default Re: Nature identical compounds

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Bartlett View Post
    Many aroma chemicals that have been synthesised in the lab have subsequently been discovered to be present in a natural material.
    Whatever next? I see that now Hedione is a natural material.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Nature identical compounds

    Omikron has a handful of oils it sells that it calls nature-identical. The site's in German, though: http://www.omikron-online.de/cgi-bin...&gesamt_zeilen=

  10. #10

    Default Re: Nature identical compounds

    Thank you all once again. I guess what I'm looking for is a database of perfumery compounds stating which compounds are nature-identical (whether natural or synthetic) and which ones do not occur in nature. It doesn't matter whether the compound is synthetic or not, just whether it occurs in nature or not.

    For example, before I decide on ordering a certain aldehyde, how can I find out if it occurs in nature or not?

    JC

  11. #11
    Basenotes Junkie
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    Default Re: Nature identical compounds

    Google around for it, use aroma comapny literature (spec sheets) to determine the origin of their material, call the distributor of the chemical in question. You're not going to find a comprehensive public database giving what you want.

    rick

  12. #12

    Default Re: Nature identical compounds

    Have you looked at the Good Scents Company page? (to see if -and where- chemicals have been found to occur in nature)

  13. #13

    Default Re: Nature identical compounds

    Quote Originally Posted by edshepp View Post
    Have you looked at the Good Scents Company page? (to see if -and where- chemicals have been found to occur in nature)
    For example, this is the page for omega-pentadecalactone - if you look under ‘Occurrence’ you’ll see some of the natural sources. If, at the time Bill put his page together, it had, to his knowledge, not been found in nature it will say ‘not found in nature’. As I’ve said that can never be definitive: it means exactly what it says ‘not found’ isn’t the same as ‘does not occur’ and knowledgeable though he is even Bill doesn’t know everything . . .
    A person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person.”
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    Chris Bartlett
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    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation I’m happy to quote: if you want free advice, that’s what these forums are for
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  14. #14

    Default Re: Nature identical compounds

    JC may I ask you why you are so interested in using nature identical chemicals but do not want to use non-nature identical chemicals? This, to me, makes little sense.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Nature identical compounds

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Bartlett View Post
    For example, this is the page for omega-pentadecalactone - if you look under ‘Occurrence’ you’ll see some of the natural sources. If, at the time Bill put his page together, it had, to his knowledge, not been found in nature it will say ‘not found in nature’. As I’ve said that can never be definitive: it means exactly what it says ‘not found’ isn’t the same as ‘does not occur’ and knowledgeable though he is even Bill doesn’t know everything . . .
    actually it was found in nature many years ago and prior to the synthetic release,
    in some circles, Ruzicka is credited for the discovery in 1928 in angelica root, while
    others state it was found in 1927 by Max Kerschbaum.

    Then in 1930 firmenich filed the trademark for Exaltodilde, but there is some record of sales as early as 1927-28 ?

  16. #16

    Default Re: Nature identical compounds

    Quote Originally Posted by luigi_g View Post
    actually it was found in nature many years ago and prior to the synthetic release,
    in some circles, Ruzicka is credited for the discovery in 1928 in angelica root, while
    others state it was found in 1927 by Max Kerschbaum.

    Then in 1930 firmenich filed the trademark for Exaltodilde, but there is some record of sales as early as 1927-28 ?
    I have some experience in the field of IP, and Trademarks unlike Patents, generally post-date discoveries by many years as they are useless until a commercial application and method of manufacture has been established . . . so I rather think you’ve proved my point, which in any case was the general one that a molecule may be synthesised without knowing whether or not nature has already made it . . .

    One might equally use the example of alpha-ionone, where the researchers were attempting to recreate the molecule responsible for the scent of orris and were convinced they had done so, when in fact the material they had produced was not the alpha-irone of orris root, but alpha-ionone of violets. A matter later sorted out by the said Ruzicka, who is probably more famous for his work on Civettone and Muscone (if famous is the right word for this kind of highly specialised stuff!). It was some years later that the ionones were understood to be responsible for the scent of violets and alpha-irone was successfully synthesised.
    A person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person.”
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    Chris Bartlett
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    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation I’m happy to quote: if you want free advice, that’s what these forums are for
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  17. #17

    Default Re: Nature identical compounds

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Bartlett View Post
    Trademarks unlike Patents, generally post-date discoveries by many years as they are useless until a commercial application and method of manufacture has been established . . . so I rather think you’ve proved my point, which in any case was the general one that a molecule may be synthesised without knowing whether or not nature has already made it . . .

    that maybe the case if one assumes firmenich had synthesized this prior to the discovery, as you mentioned
    the trademark is post-date discovery in many trademarks, however, Ruzicka was the first to synthesis this after the initial discovery - 1927-28 as that was the old practice then, they would try to synthesis a discovered molecule to confirm the initial discovery.
    so in this case it was identified in nature prior to the synthesis.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Nature identical compounds

    Quote Originally Posted by luigi_g View Post
    that maybe the case if one assumes firmenich had synthesized this prior to the discovery, as you mentioned
    the trademark is post-date discovery in many trademarks, however, Ruzicka was the first to synthesis this after the initial discovery - 1927-28 as that was the old practice then, they would try to synthesis a discovered molecule to confirm the initial discovery.
    so in this case it was identified in nature prior to the synthesis.
    an interesting assertion and quite possibly correct, but I have seen no evidence to support it - the literature I have access to does not even suggest he was the first to synthesise this particular musk. Do you have references for it’s identification in nature prior to the 1920s? Beyond the obvious fact that angelica seed oil was known to contain an unknown musk element that is.
    Last edited by Chris Bartlett; 6th May 2014 at 06:31 PM. Reason: minor corrections
    A person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person.”
    ― Dave Barry

    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

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    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation I’m happy to quote: if you want free advice, that’s what these forums are for
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  19. #19

    Default Re: Nature identical compounds

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Bartlett View Post
    an interesting assertion and quite possibly correct, but I have seen no evidence to support it - the literature I have access to does not even suggest he was the first to synthesise this particular musk. Do you have references for it’s identification in nature prior to the 1920s? Beyond the obvious fact that angelica seed oil was known to contain an unknown musk element that is.
    yes, there is data on this actually published by Firmenich
    "Exaltolide was first synthesized in 1928 via the oxidation of Exaltone"
    http://www.ifeat.org/wp-content/uplo...production.pdf

    and in the book Concise Encyclopedia Chemistry credits Ruzicka as the first to synthesize this in 1928
    which seems to confirm Firmenich's statement.
    there is a preview of that book on google
    http://books.google.com/books?id=Owu...201928&f=false

    and in other pdf book i have "Chemistry and Technology of Flavours and Fragrances"
    Max Kerschbaum first discovered exaltolide in angelica root oil in 1927

    http://www.researchgate.net/profile/...8f594c461b.pdf

    it appears at least in this case exaltolide was first synthesized approx. 1 year after it was discovered / identified in nature.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Nature identical compounds

    Quote Originally Posted by luigi_g View Post
    yes, there is data on this actually published by Firmenich
    "Exaltolide was first synthesized in 1928 via the oxidation of Exaltone"
    http://www.ifeat.org/wp-content/uplo...production.pdf

    and in the book Concise Encyclopedia Chemistry credits Ruzicka as the first to synthesize this in 1928
    which seems to confirm Firmenich's statement.
    there is a preview of that book on google
    http://books.google.com/books?id=Owu...201928&f=false

    and in other pdf book i have "Chemistry and Technology of Flavours and Fragrances"
    Max Kerschbaum first discovered exaltolide in angelica root oil in 1927

    http://www.researchgate.net/profile/...8f594c461b.pdf

    it appears at least in this case exaltolide was first synthesized approx. 1 year after it was discovered / identified in nature.
    Those are, as you correctly identified in your first post on this, two competing claims concerning who first synthesized this particular musk. They are not in the least relevant to the point, which was to aid understanding the febrile quality of the statement that a given material is 'not found in nature'.

    I'm not interested in engaging in a game of contradiction for its own sake. Do you have something helpful to contribute to the OPs question?
    A person who is nice to you, but rude to the waiter, is not a nice person.”
    ― Dave Barry

    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    www.perfumedesigner.co.uk
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume

    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation I’m happy to quote: if you want free advice, that’s what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog if you wish to ask questions of me.

  21. #21

    Default Re: Nature identical compounds

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Bartlett View Post
    Those are, as you correctly identified in your first post on this, two competing claims concerning who first synthesized this particular musk. They are not in the least relevant to the point, which was to aid understanding the febrile quality of the statement that a given material is 'not found in nature'.

    I'm not interested in engaging in a game of contradiction for its own sake. Do you have something helpful to contribute to the OPs question?
    "They are not in the least relevant to the point, which was to aid understanding the febrile quality of the statement that a given material is 'not found in nature'"

    excuse me?, you asked me for references in your previous post, so my reply was relevant to your query.

  22. #22

    Default Re: Nature identical compounds

    Hi JC,
    I am also curious as to why you would like to work with (or know if something is) nature-identical.
    Kind regards,
    Christine
    Last edited by PerfumerSupplyHouse; 7th May 2014 at 04:05 AM. Reason: error in spelling

  23. #23
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    Default Re: Nature identical compounds

    Well, I would like to use nature-identicals where the actual naturals are too difficult to extract. Philip Kraft at Givaudan makes a point of this. In my case being a naturalist, I would prefer to use for example synthetic Methyl Jasmonate instead of its hydrogenated form methyl dihydrojasmonate ie Hedione, as it very much exists in nature and doesn't have any of those nasty trans-isomers.

    I realise that it's difficult being a Naturalist and sometimes one has to go to the Dark Side but only where ones chemicals of choice aren't otherwise available. I also believe that hydrogenation and biosynthesis of naturals is a grey area and one sometimes has to go there as well.

  24. #24

    Default Re: Nature identical compounds

    I can sort of understand why anyone would want to make an all Natural fragrance, although I don't agree with the philosophy behind it. I cannot understand why you only want to use those chemicals which have been found occurring in nature but don't care how they are synthesised. The synthetic version is the same as the natural (with some exceptions, differing optical isomers) so why, if that is OK, won't you use chemicals that do not occur in nature but have been made using the same synthetic processes? What is the inherent magic of a chemical occurring in an Essential oil,( but made synthetically) that a chemical not occurring in an Essential Oil, does not have?

  25. #25

    Default Re: Nature identical compounds

    Quote Originally Posted by nemenator View Post
    Well, I would like to use nature-identicals where the actual naturals are too difficult to extract. Philip Kraft at Givaudan makes a point of this. In my case being a naturalist, I would prefer to use for example synthetic Methyl Jasmonate instead of its hydrogenated form methyl dihydrojasmonate ie Hedione, as it very much exists in nature and doesn't have any of those nasty trans-isomers.

    I realise that it's difficult being a Naturalist and sometimes one has to go to the Dark Side but only where ones chemicals of choice aren't otherwise available. I also believe that hydrogenation and biosynthesis of naturals is a grey area and one sometimes has to go there as well.
    nemenator, I am a bit confused,
    you wrote, " I would prefer to use for example synthetic Methyl Jasmonate instead of its hydrogenated form methyl dihydrojasmonate ie Hedione, as it very much exists in nature and doesn't have any of those nasty trans-isomers. "

    methyl dihydrojasmonate is actually found in nature, so if you are ok with the synthetic methyl jasmonate
    what would be the issue with synthetic methyl dihydrojasmonate?

    also why are trans-isomers nasty?

  26. #26
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    Default Re: Nature identical compounds

    Quote Originally Posted by luigi_g View Post
    methyl dihydrojasmonate is actually found in nature, so if you are ok with the synthetic methyl jasmonate
    what would be the issue with synthetic methyl dihydrojasmonate?

    also why are trans-isomers nasty?
    A natural Hedione seems like wishful thinking to me as it isn't in the 37 jasmines I've looked at http://www.essentialoils.org. And perfumers seem to be taken by the high-cis versions rather like we avoid eating bad hygrogenated trans-fats. I say go with the real thing like lard or butter instead of margarines.

  27. #27

    Default Re: Nature identical compounds

    Won't natural isolated chemicals and synthesized ones differ in their impurities (as well as isomers balance), and hence smell slightly different?

  28. #28

    Default Re: Nature identical compounds

    Quote Originally Posted by nemenator View Post
    A natural Hedione seems like wishful thinking to me as it isn't in the 37 jasmines I've looked at http://www.essentialoils.org. And perfumers seem to be taken by the high-cis versions rather like we avoid eating bad hygrogenated trans-fats. I say go with the real thing like lard or butter instead of margarines.
    well,
    according to a PHD chemist at Firmenich in 1958, methyl dihydrojasmonate was discovered in jasmine.

    http://www.firmenich.com/m/company/n...1-ae9d77676e86

    it is also found in some teas and heliotrope

    a hydrogenated trans-fat is a completely different animal
    than a trans aromatic isomer.
    Last edited by luigi_g; 7th May 2014 at 05:17 PM.

  29. #29

    Default Re: Nature identical compounds

    Wow. Great advice, everyone! Definitely have several options of finding out whether or not a chemical occurs in nature.

    Many thanks!

    JC

  30. #30

    Default Re: Nature identical compounds

    Quote Originally Posted by David Ruskin View Post
    JC may I ask you why you are so interested in using nature identical chemicals but do not want to use non-nature identical chemicals? This, to me, makes little sense.
    The natural scent of apple, for example, is known for being relatively safe simply because it's been around for centuries. If I had to choose between a molecule that is identical to the scent molecule in apples and another that creates the same olfactory effect but is not the same in composition (thereby has not been tested long enough for safety), I'd choose the nature-identical one. We know from biochemistry that small changes in a molecule can transform it from being safe to being toxic. We also know that some very toxic compounds have a pleasant smell.

    Please forgive me - this is as far as I will go in defining my argument. I prefer to stay away from lengthy debates.

    JC

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