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  1. #1

    Default Petitgrain, the natural that ruins everything

    I love the smell of petitgrain on it's own but have so far failed to include it in any blend. It's just so obnoxious, it stomps big wet woody feet all over anything I mix it with, and then turns to detergent.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Petitgrain, the natural that ruins everything

    Hmmm. I look at petitgrain like at Neroli without the sweet flower scent.
    That's why i would try to modify it with Cinnamon/Lime and Cinnamon like chemicals in the direction of Coca Cola scent.
    Just my 2 cents here - i bet the possibilities are bigger.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Petitgrain, the natural that ruins everything

    All materials have their virtues, many have their less than desireable traits. It is up to you to learn these issues and learn how to capitalize upon their strengths, and minimize their weaknesses.

    I don't use Naturals for their weaknesses, I use them for their strengths.

    PK
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Petitgrain, the natural that ruins everything

    ...Plus there are lots of different varieties with that one.

    I recommend trying the cologne recipe posted yesterday, which contains it.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Petitgrain, the natural that ruins everything

    Quote Originally Posted by DrSmellThis View Post
    the cologne recipe
    My Opinion:

    Perfumery is a highly complex process, craft and Art.

    "Recipe" belongs in the Kitchen.

    "Formula" belongs in the Labroatory.

    I have no perfumery recipes, they are all complex formulas.

    PK
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Petitgrain, the natural that ruins everything

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post
    My Opinion:

    Perfumery is a highly complex process, craft and Art.

    "Recipe" belongs in the Kitchen.

    "Formula" belongs in the Labroatory.

    I have no perfumery recipes, they are all complex formulas.

    PK
    Oops. I know. For me, I am just trying not to be pretentious. Perfumery is already weird enough that no one I know can relate to me telling them I do that. People always change the topic if I bring it up, as they have no frame of reference. So I don't usually talk of my "laboratory" either. That's just me. Your formulae are hopefully no more complex than mine, as I am complex to a fault (kind of like my long, wordy posts), and really need to be less complex. So I do things to be more... approachable? I don't know. I'm already too intellectual, over educated, and other things to relate to people around me. If I present it as a "recipe", I'm less obscure, "elitist" and alien.

    The cologne I'm referring to had about ten ingredients, less than most soups.

    I'm not making a statement about anyone else, or about the field of perfumery. Personally I'm pretty sure I agree with your reasoning in detail. It's just a habit I have of trying to be more of a "regular person." I hate when people think I'm elitist, which does on occasion happen. It's overcompensation.
    Last edited by DrSmellThis; 10th May 2014 at 11:36 PM.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Petitgrain, the natural that ruins everything

    Can you point us to the cologne recipe from yesterday? I cannot find it.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Petitgrain, the natural that ruins everything

    Quote Originally Posted by bshell View Post
    Can you point us to the cologne recipe from yesterday? I cannot find it.
    http://www.basenotes.net/threads/372...logne-formulas

  9. #9

    Default Re: Petitgrain, the natural that ruins everything

    Thanks for that I'll give it a go. It's always good to have a look at someone else's composition (there you go, nice regular word without getting all elitist) to understand how they view a material. The issue for me is that petitgrain is such an airy, cold and wet smelling scent that I have a lot of trouble gettting a sense of lightness out of it. Maybe it is just my particular version of it which I have to admit isn't the highest quality. It's very citrus and wood in a heavy way. I may need to invest in some better material.

  10. #10

    Default My Dune inspired fragrance

    So Yesterday at work I was just tooling around and stopped at a perfumery to have a sniff. I remember at one stage owning a cheap perfurme that I loved and everyone used to ask me if it was Tendre Poison or Dune. Two fragrances I had never smelled. So I picked up the Dune and had a sniff. Yep, it was my perfume, or rather I was wearing a Dune knock-off. Had no idea I could have just bought Dune when that particular brand went out of business and I lamented my loss. Oh well...but I did realise that austere, dry and woody fragrances are definately my personal fragrance. So I became inspired to come up with my own naturals inspired dry, woody, austere fragrance. I got home and got to work right away remembering all the aspects of Dune I enjoyed.

    My perfumers organ is extremely limited, I've only invested a few hundred so far so I had to work with what I had. And to be honest I've come up with a composition that does fit the bill and I like. Albeit, it's only basic and seriously needs some rounding out. But I went into the project with these idea's...

    Base - dark, austere (tobacco, oakmoss, patchouli)
    Middle - dry, woods & spice (himalayan cedar, atlas cedar, ginger, pemou)
    Top - hint of citrus (petitgrain, mandarin)

    Everything went swimmingly until I added the petitgrain and it was like winter rain on top of an otherwise beautiful day. It seemed to drag the whole composition off course which until that point was spicey, dry, summery and lovely. Bugger! Or so I thought. A hint of geranium bourbon seemed to bring back the warmth and it smelt weird but better than before. So I left it to sit overnight hoping that some miracle might occur. This morning a miracle did occur the petitgrain is still there but it's become a backnote that's mostly just citrus. The warmer notes of ginger, patchouli and geranium have lifted the whole thing and now it is a semi-sweet, woody fragrance that's got some charm.

    I want to keep this one until I get some synthetics as I want to try adding some sandalwood fragrance and a jasmin-like effect without the overpowering nature that my jasmine absolute has. Plus I'm getting some Ylang, Ylang natural material which could go well here with the Pemou.

    Pemou is a very strange but interesting wood. It's extremely fruity and easily overpowers other woods. I used it only as a modifier and it stands out strongly in my fragrance. It has what I can only describe as being banana and tropical fruit aspects that are stronger than it's wood aspects. Recommend this as a naturals if you like fruit, as I can see many uses for it.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: My Dune inspired fragrance

    Quote Originally Posted by ClaraAus View Post
    Pemou is a very strange but interesting wood.
    Have you tried the Pemou Root?

    Pk
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

  12. #12

    Default Re: My Dune inspired fragrance

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post
    Have you tried the Pemou Root?

    Pk
    No. But then I have a very limited collection of materials at present. Just a handful of naturals and nothing else. Still yet to even buy the basics in synthetics. Care to share your impressions of it?

  13. #13

    Default Re: Petitgrain, the natural that ruins everything

    So Clara, in that particular formula Petitgrain didn't work. Why not try mixing it with a few other ingredients. Make up some simple mixes and see the effect of adding small amounts of Petigrain to it. Keep on adding until you get to the stage where the mix has been ruined. Smell each trial in turn and make notes about the smell, the perceived effect of Petitgrain and what you like and dislike about it. I have no idea how good or bad your sample of Petitgrain is, quality can be a problem and a poor quality oil can put you off using it forever.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Petitgrain, the natural that ruins everything

    I think petitgrain could help compliment wood or musk fragrances, especially if there is some citrus in the formula.
    I definitely know what you mean about it "ruining everything". That's probably because of the prominent sharp sour note. I had some lemon myrtle oil (that's like 90% citral) and even tiny amounts would completely overwhelm formulations and give them a skunk-like edge. Do not use too much petitgrain in the formula, use it only to compliment and accent other notes. Petitgrain is only going to work well in certain types of fragrances, and probably more in men's fragrances I am thinking.

    You can't say that petitgrain ruins everything because it is a classic perfume ingredient, and it definitely has valuable fragrance notes and effects to contribute, in the right situation and proper combination. You have to be able to understand the character of the ingredient before you can use it. When and where is it going to work well?

    I find that petitgrain has a pleasant bamboo like smell to it, a barely perceptible note of the green leafy aspect of rose, and smells like there could be some lavender in it too.
    Last edited by parker25mv; 23rd November 2016 at 07:27 AM.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Petitgrain, the natural that ruins everything

    Imho petitgrain is quite nice in floral blends, it's like linalool with more character. I like petitgrain mixed with benzyl acetate, benzyl salicylate, hidrxycitronellal, pea etc. Oh and it's quite nice with ethyl vanillin too.

    You adding it to woody matrials probably accentuated only woody green facets petitgrain also has.

    Next time try adding some flowers to your woods, like jasmine or lily of the valley, benzyl salicylate works well with woods as well, what that would do, it would soften your woody blend and give lift, while maintaining the profile.
    Last edited by perfectscent; 23rd November 2016 at 08:08 AM.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Petitgrain, the natural that ruins everything

    Without Petitgrain there would be no 4711.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Petitgrain, the natural that ruins everything

    Quote Originally Posted by David Ruskin View Post
    Without Petitgrain there would be no 4711.
    Yes, the cologne. Lovely material that works great with citruses as well.

  18. #18
    Basenotes Junkie Serg Ixygon's Avatar
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    Default Re: Petitgrain, the natural that ruins everything

    I love Petitgrain. If you work mostly with AC, It's the second natural which is worth to work with. The first is Patchouli.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Petitgrain, the natural that ruins everything

    This is so interesting, for me Petit grain works exactly the opposite, it seems to make any formula better. It is my favourite essential oil. I personally dont feel fond of Ylang Ylang or Jasmine, but even when we dont like a particular smell of a material, the most important thing is to see beyond and learn how they can affect the entire composition.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Petitgrain, the natural that ruins everything

    I've made a cologne that focuses on Petitgrain, it's dosed at about 10% which I think is much higher than usual. I basically wanted the end result to smell of petitgrain but a bit softer and nuanced. I found Oranger Crystals, Bay, Thyme, Amber, Hedione and so on...all worked nicely.

  21. #21

    Default Re: Petitgrain, the natural that ruins everything

    Did you try adding benzoin? I like your description- those big wet woody stomping feet! Hahaha. Try grounding it with the benzoin, then warming it with a bit of nutmeg. Something floral & citrus could help refine it, so that those feet aren't so big and floppy. Grapefruit maybe? Lemon blossom?

  22. #22
    Basenotes Member drkne's Avatar
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    Default Re: Petitgrain, the natural that ruins everything

    Quote Originally Posted by caribbeanisland View Post
    This is so interesting, for me Petit grain works exactly the opposite, it seems to make any formula better. It is my favourite essential oil. I personally dont feel fond of Ylang Ylang or Jasmine, but even when we dont like a particular smell of a material, the most important thing is to see beyond and learn how they can affect the entire composition.
    Oh yes, very true! The smell of straight Clove Bud makes me quite nauseous, but I can tell when it will have the effect I need in a composition. I hear that even Durian fruit has been used in fragrance and many people find that one to be nauseating.

  23. #23
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    Default Re: Petitgrain, the natural that ruins everything

    Poetry!

  24. #24

    Default Re: Petitgrain, the natural that ruins everything

    Quote Originally Posted by drkne View Post
    Oh yes, very true! The smell of straight Clove Bud makes me quite nauseous, but I can tell when it will have the effect I need in a composition. I hear that even Durian fruit has been used in fragrance and many people find that one to be nauseating.
    Durian is the king of fruits. Hated it when first tried but now I love it. Certainly the most complex fruit there is. I would guess it contains a lot of sulphuric compounds less suitable for perfume, but would love to know what some of those sweet, coffee, toffee scented ones are though.

  25. #25
    Basenotes Junkie mattmeleg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Petitgrain, the natural that ruins everything

    Everything is good in moderation. I love Pettigrain, I love patchouli
    My formulas are often about 75% a.c, 25% essential oils (or less, and in moderation - very carefully!)

    Too much of any SINGLE natural definitely COULD mess up your formula.
    Thats why I usually add my naturals to my formula in batches.

    For example, I have a generic citrus accord, made up of something like 20 naturals...
    I add a careful, small amount of this blended accord to my top notes (which is mostly made up of a.c`s)

    Avoid overdosing any SINGLE natural in my formulas.
    overdosing something like a clear, white musk.. for example hedione is FINE.
    overdosing pettigrain, jasmine, yang or patchouli - this will FLATTEN your formula, and kill off any other nuance in your creation.

  26. #26

    Default Re: Petitgrain, the natural that ruins everything

    Quote Originally Posted by mattmeleg View Post
    Avoid overdosing any SINGLE natural in my formulas.
    overdosing something like a clear, white musk.. for example hedione is FINE.
    overdosing pettigrain, jasmine, yang or patchouli - this will FLATTEN your formula, and kill off any other nuance in your creation.

    I disagree with this statement. As always, it depends on the material and what else it is blended with, natural or ac. As far as nuance, there are some naturals that contain so many different shades of scent you can only do it justice to let it stand on its own.

  27. #27

    Default Re: Petitgrain, the natural that ruins everything

    Use petitgrain in very small amounts to add an accent. You may wish to dilute the petitgrain first and then add it, to gain more control over exactly how much is added.
    No fragrance is based primarily on petitgrain. Used in the right way, a little bit of petitgrain can add a green astringently balsamic natural fullness and can compliment woods. The smell is like walking through a citrus orchard that doesn't have blooms or blossoms, the harsh green of the leaves.

  28. #28
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    Default Re: Petitgrain, the natural that ruins everything

    Since Matt is silenced, I only read what he says when he gets quoted by a normal person.

    "Flattened" is so patently wrong. Using any material out of balance will throw the balance off to weight towards what is out of balance, but it won't flatten a scent.
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
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    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.




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