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  1. #31
    Dependent onethinline's Avatar
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    Default Re: Amouage Fate. Why so much hate?

    I enjoy Fate Man quite a bit, and though I can understand why some may not like it (cumin and immortelle have detractors, obviously), I would never call this a "failed" composition or "generic" or any sort of stumble on Amouage's part. I'd be surprised, especially given the boldness of their compositions, if all Amouages appealed to all people, or even all fragrance geeks. Much as I love the house, I don't enjoy all of their release, though I respect almost all of them. I also agree that it's silly to say Amouage should "stick to what they've done"; if they did that, we'd be all over them for it. Also: boring.

    When I've worn Fate Man from my sample I get a wonderful, dry, natural effect which reminds me of summer here in California. The cumin/immortelle and whatever else create a beige dry grassy accord which I may associate with wild fennel and warm dusty fields. It smells very outdoorsy to me. I don't get a curry association, nor a body odor one.

    It's interesting to hear it compared to Rose 31 "but without the rose." I don't smell any big similarity between the two at all, unless we're honing in on just the cumin. Even the frankincense note between the two is quite different. Not only that, but the rose note in Fate Man is present and beautiful to me, whereas I only sometimes pick it up in the Le Labo (which I also enjoy quite a bit, by the way).

    In any event, it's one thing to recognize that Fate Man isn't to one's taste, but it's another to call it evidence of Amouage slipping in quality. To me, they're doing just fine.
    Currently wearing: New Haarlem by Bond No. 9

  2. #32

    Default Re: Amouage Fate. Why so much hate?

    Strange that Cartier Declaration get a lot of praise, while Fate doesn't..

  3. #33
    Dependent yarn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Amouage Fate. Why so much hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oslo-Fjord View Post
    Strange that Cartier Declaration get a lot of praise, while Fate doesn't..
    For me, the 'curry' vibe in Declaration sits at the back but in Fate it is at the front. I can live with the note in Declaration as I never worry that the 'curry' thing is going to heat up and start overly projecting. With Fate, I am worried that any amount of heat from me/weather is going to set off a curry bomb that will make me feel as though I am sat in the middle of a Vindaloo

  4. #34
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    Default Re: Amouage Fate. Why so much hate?

    "pardon me ma'am, it must have been the vindaloo"
    improving olfactory environments one molecule at a time....

  5. #35

    Default Re: Amouage Fate. Why so much hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by pluran View Post
    I left the names of the fragrances out in order to focus on the point:

    "A few years ago a committee was set up in France to look into the problem of plagiarism in fragrance. A jury composed of professionals and perfume lovers was to decide whether a given fragrance was a blatant copy of an existing one, and act as an expert witness in several juicy lawsuits. The idea foundered when it became clear that such a committee would probably reject some of the greatest fragrances ever made: _______ was an unsweetened _______, _______ the dusky sister of _______, _______ an ornate variation (the first of many) on _______. In each case, however, the copy was arguably better than the original. Perfumery is still a classical art in which, as Charles Colton once put it, imitation is the sincerest flattery..........The fact is that perfumes, like species, usually evolve in incremental steps. When closely related, they can even interbreed to produce rare and splendid hybrids........" Luca Turin
    _____________

    Fate Man is boring. Fate Woman is excellent.
    The story is so sad, isn't it? As far as I know when 30% of a script for a movie is "borrowed" then it can ends up with a lawsuit. The world is full of unfairness! And the quote "imitation is the sincerest flattery" is genius, it is like saying "steal baby steal more when it's still legal in our uncivilized part of the world"
    Last edited by jasonx; 13th May 2014 at 06:21 PM.

  6. #36
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    Default Re: Amouage Fate. Why so much hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by jasonx View Post
    The story is so sad, isn't it? As far as I know when 30% of a script for a movie is "borrowed" then it can ends up with a lawsuit. The world is full of unfairness!
    But if only 30% of the composition of a perfume were 'borrowed' for another, the remaining 70% would result in a massive difference!

  7. #37

    Default Re: Amouage Fate. Why so much hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by onethinline View Post
    It's interesting to hear it compared to Rose 31 "but without the rose." I don't smell any big similarity between the two at all, unless we're honing in on just the cumin. Even the frankincense note between the two is quite different. Not only that, but the rose note in Fate Man is present and beautiful to me, whereas I only sometimes pick it up in the Le Labo (which I also enjoy quite a bit, by the way).
    You might see it if you just simply wear them as whole scents without picking out the notes trying to find the difference

  8. #38
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    Default Re: Amouage Fate. Why so much hate?

    Well, in the music industry ALL that can be copyrighted is the lyrics and the melody. the chord progressions, backing music, all the other stuff -- not so much.

    A good friend in Key West (who used to be in 60s rock band Spirit) got completely ripped off by Toby Keith -- "I Love This Bar" -- if you heard both songs you can see where Toby took the whole idea for the verses, and vibe of the song, and grafted a big Nash-vegas chorus on there - it went to court and my buddy lost. Typical.

    Seems like fighting a court case over fragrance would be even more difficult.
    improving olfactory environments one molecule at a time....

  9. #39
    Dependent onethinline's Avatar
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    Default Re: Amouage Fate. Why so much hate?

    Are all fougeres shameless copies? Or all chypres? Orientals can smell similar to each other, given so many common notes; are these copies?

    Of course not. Some notes, especially those which are a bit less common, can create a strong impression and imply a stronger resemblance between compositions than is really present. (This probably explains a lot of "X smells just like Y!" posts from newcomers which baffle us more experienced noses.)
    Currently wearing: New Haarlem by Bond No. 9

  10. #40
    Dependent juanderer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Amouage Fate. Why so much hate?

    Because it rhymes.
    Currently wearing: Musk Oud by By Kilian

  11. #41

    Default Re: Amouage Fate. Why so much hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by lpp View Post
    But if only 30% of the composition of a perfume were 'borrowed' for another, the remaining 70% would result in a massive difference!
    Yes, so we can have much better creations instead of Reflection of Le Male or No Rose for the Fake oops Fate. We are too easy on the perfumers and the perfumes houses so they get more and more lazy. Who wants to give out any creative juice when they can be praised with something borrow?

  12. #42
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    Default Re: Amouage Fate. Why so much hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by juanderer View Post
    Because it rhymes.
    Probably

  13. #43

    Default Re: Amouage Fate. Why so much hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by onethinline View Post
    It's interesting to hear it compared to Rose 31 "but without the rose." I don't smell any big similarity between the two at all, unless we're honing in on just the cumin. Even the frankincense note between the two is quite different. Not only that, but the rose note in Fate Man is present and beautiful to me, whereas I only sometimes pick it up in the Le Labo (which I also enjoy quite a bit, by the way).
    Yeah, I get no similarity between them in the slightest either. Which is good as I'm not a fan of the LL!

  14. #44

    Default Re: Amouage Fate. Why so much hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by onethinline View Post
    Are all fougeres shameless copies? Or all chypres? Orientals can smell similar to each other, given so many common notes; are these copies?

    Of course not. Some notes, especially those which are a bit less common, can create a strong impression and imply a stronger resemblance between compositions than is really present. (This probably explains a lot of "X smells just like Y!" posts from newcomers which baffle us more experienced noses.)
    It's seems that you're confused between smelling profiles & fragrance groups. Flowerbomb can never ever smell like Angel. What I'm saying here is smelling profile.

    Let's put it like this, fragrance groups like chypre or fougere are like genres of music. You can have a million Pop songs. But smelling profile is like lyric and music of one particular song. Can you take a whole verse of a song add some random words to it then call it your own without being called stealing?

    FYI, I'm not a newcomer, I smelled so many things, maybe that's why I can see the similarity that some cannot, and even know the different between smelling profiles & fragrance groups!
    Last edited by jasonx; 13th May 2014 at 06:42 PM.

  15. #45
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    Default Re: Amouage Fate. Why so much hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by onethinline View Post
    Are all fougeres shameless copies? Or all chypres? Orientals can smell similar to each other, given so many common notes; are these copies?...
    Valid questions.

    I think about fragrance less in terms of movies or music and more in terms of food and beverage, other olfactory compositions.

    You can have a number of styles of whiskey, even a number of styles of bourbon whiskey, you can have merlot, pinot, chardonnay, you can have peppersteak in a number of different restaurants. Boiled crabs may be prepared differently in California, Louisiana and Maryland but they are all boiled crabs.

    Nobody seems to sue that someone else makes a peppersteak or bourbon or wine or boiled crab. It's just accepted that these things are good and lots of people want them.

    The fragrance industry does differ in that it brands perfumes as unique compositions, even if they can be categorized as recognizable fougeres, chypres, florals, orientals, etc. But as stated, the differences are incremental and often just tweaks of well-known recipes.

    It's no wonder to me that nobody in the industry seems to want to touch the copyright issue.

    And I also scratch my head when I read that, for example, Mugler Cologne, Creed Original Vetiver and TF Neroli Portofino smell the same. To me, they do not.
    Last edited by zatarain; 13th May 2014 at 06:44 PM. Reason: elaboration
    Behemoth cut a slice of pineapple, salted it, peppered it, ate it, and then tossed off a second glass of alcohol so dashingly that everyone applauded.

  16. #46

    Default Re: Amouage Fate. Why so much hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by zatarain View Post
    Valid questions.

    I think about fragrance less in terms of movies or music and more in terms of food and beverage, other olfactory compositions.

    You can have a number of styles of whiskey, even a number of styles of bourbon whiskey, you can have merlot, pinot, chardonnay, you can have peppersteak in a number of different restaurants. Boiled crabs may be prepared differently in California, Louisiana and Maryland but they are all boiled crabs.

    Nobody seems to sue that someone else makes a peppersteak or bourbon or wine or boiled crab. It's just accepted that these things are good and lots of people want them.

    The fragrance industry does differ in that it brands perfumes as unique compositions, even if they can be categorized as recognizable fougeres, chypres, florals, orientals, etc. But as stated, the differences are incremental and often just tweaks of well-known recipes.

    It's no wonder to me that nobody in the industry seems to want to touch the copyright issue.

    And I also scratch my head when I read that, for example, Mugler Cologne, Creed Original Vetiver and TF Neroli Portofino smell the same. To me, they do not.
    No wonder why some companies keep their recipes strictly confidential under most technically advanced kind of locks

  17. #47
    Dependent onethinline's Avatar
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    Default Re: Amouage Fate. Why so much hate?

    The reason I brought up fougeres, or chypres, is that classically-structured fougeres smell much more similar to me (let's say, Azzaro Pour Homme, Rive Gauche Pour Homme, and HdP 1725) than do Rose 31 and Fate Man. I just don't get the point being made about Amouage copying other compositions; I don't see the evidence of it.

    Being inspired by particular accords, sure, but then, that's the case with every creative field. Using combinations or accords that are similar to, or the same as, those of other fragrances, again, yes, it happens often enough, and depending on one's sensitivities this may be enough to give the effect of the two smelling "the same," but typically they're not the same.
    Currently wearing: New Haarlem by Bond No. 9

  18. #48
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    Default Re: Amouage Fate. Why so much hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by jasonx View Post
    ...There is a saying that empty barrels make the most noise
    And who has the most posts in this thread?
    Behemoth cut a slice of pineapple, salted it, peppered it, ate it, and then tossed off a second glass of alcohol so dashingly that everyone applauded.

  19. #49

    Default Re: Amouage Fate. Why so much hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by zatarain View Post
    And who has the most posts in this thread?
    Are you attacking me?

  20. #50

    Default Re: Amouage Fate. Why so much hate?

    Hey, let's keep it on track, guys.

    OP was simply asking why so many people dislike Fate, but it seems that people are perhaps more split than it seemed. Perhaps it reminds some of one thing, and for others, it doesn't draw the same comparison, but let's wrangle the conversation in again a little more.

    Fate Man felt a little more classic-style to me than what I'm used to from Amouage—kind of surprise really following some of the more pop/contemporary things they've done. It strike me as a line that covers a lot of bases yet manages to thread them together in some way. Does that make sense? There's noting that strikes me as sticking out of the line like a sore thumb.

  21. #51
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    Default Re: Amouage Fate. Why so much hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by jasonx View Post
    Are you attacking me?
    No, I just thought that remark was uncalled for. I understand you feel that there is plagiarism in the industry and Amouage is guilty of it. Some of us disagree in one way or another. There is very little that is objective in how we perceive fragrance. Even given the same ingredients, individual perception varies. And as you have correctly pointed out, recipes are closely guarded secrets.

    I'm curious to know what kind of NDAs are signed by noses when they work for various houses, any perfumers here want to comment on that?

    Edited to add: sorry, DI, we were writing at the same time, I don't mean to seem to be ignoring your advice!
    Behemoth cut a slice of pineapple, salted it, peppered it, ate it, and then tossed off a second glass of alcohol so dashingly that everyone applauded.

  22. #52

    Default Re: Amouage Fate. Why so much hate?

    Some get a sweaty, curry, indian kitchen vibe from Fate. I get a delicious spice-cake vibe from it

  23. #53
    Basenotes Institution L'Homme Blanc Individuel's Avatar
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    Default Re: Amouage Fate. Why so much hate?

    Getting this thread back on track - here's my thought on the original topic:

    Amouage released a string of scents for men that walked the tine between difficult and signature worthy. Lyric. Reflection. Epic. Memoir. Jubilation. Interlude.

    Fate was a step away from that lineup. Fate Man was even more challenging - at least, for the typical western nose.

    I was sent an unlabeled sample of Fate by a generous BNer. Actually, it wasn't unlabeled. It was simply labeled "B." I had no idea what it was when I wore it - and frankly, I think that's the best way to sample any fragrance, but especially a fragrance like Fate. It needs to be experienced without expectations.

    I found Fate to be difficult, yet astounding. And that's the problem. Do we really want difficult? Yes and no... but mostly, no, because "we" implies more than just those who appreciate art for the sake of art. We implies everything from people who think Knize Ten isn't leathery enough, to people who think A*Men isn't loud enough, to people who think D&G Light Blue isn't light enough (or blue enough - whatever THAT means).

    If you do a search, you'll hopefully find the original Fate thread. You'll find plenty of love for it there. I think people who seek this sort of scent will love it and cherish it. But Fate Man is not one for the masses. And I think that's a good thing.

    I sometimes think that great perfume houses should be split in half, with the majority of their resources going to important releases, but also leaving room for creative releases that offer room for creative growth even if they don't sell as well. That's what Fate is for me. It's a creative release which reminds us that Amouage isn't Calvin Klein. This is wearable art for people who value wearable art, and even for those people, it can be challenging.
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  24. #54

    Default Re: Amouage Fate. Why so much hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by jasonx View Post
    I guess there isn't a copyright for scent, so those who steal will keep stealing, those who support stealing will keep spending their money on stolen goods, as for me, I will keep saying bad things about them lol
    I think this person made his intentions clear enough in this earlier post - there is no point arguing or trying to offer a common sense rebuttal to childish ill-intent. This is trolling and disrupting the Thread from the original discussion.

    His comment on a nearby Thread that Amouage Gold smells like 'the dried spit of someone who hasn't brushed their teeth' should be more than enough to alert anyone wishing to actually discuss things that he is best ignored or removed.

    Christopher Chong mentioned to me years ago that the main reason he didn't participate in Basenotes discussions was not for the want of being able to have an actual discussion, but what he cited as 'poor moderation' and, frankly, an open declaration to slam a brand and comments like the Gold one add nothing to the credibility of Basenotes or the level of discussion.

    Sorry to sound like a bore but Basenotes is not a free-for-all and childish shit like this is what has driven a lot of people away - sad.
    “Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'”
    ― Isaac Asimov

  25. #55

    Default Re: Amouage Fate. Why so much hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by L'Homme Blanc Individuel View Post
    Getting this thread back on track - here's my thought on the original topic:

    Amouage released a string of scents for men that walked the tine between difficult and signature worthy. Lyric. Reflection. Epic. Memoir. Jubilation. Interlude.

    Fate was a step away from that lineup. Fate Man was even more challenging - at least, for the typical western nose.

    I was sent an unlabeled sample of Fate by a generous BNer. Actually, it wasn't unlabeled. It was simply labeled "B." I had no idea what it was when I wore it - and frankly, I think that's the best way to sample any fragrance, but especially a fragrance like Fate. It needs to be experienced without expectations.

    I found Fate to be difficult, yet astounding. And that's the problem. Do we really want difficult? Yes and no... but mostly, no, because "we" implies more than just those who appreciate art for the sake of art. We implies everything from people who think Knize Ten isn't leathery enough, to people who think A*Men isn't loud enough, to people who think D&G Light Blue isn't light enough (or blue enough - whatever THAT means).

    If you do a search, you'll hopefully find the original Fate thread. You'll find plenty of love for it there. I think people who seek this sort of scent will love it and cherish it. But Fate Man is not one for the masses. And I think that's a good thing.

    I sometimes think that great perfume houses should be split in half, with the majority of their resources going to important releases, but also leaving room for creative releases that offer room for creative growth even if they don't sell as well. That's what Fate is for me. It's a creative release which reminds us that Amouage isn't Calvin Klein. This is wearable art for people who value wearable art, and even for those people, it can be challenging.
    Exactly. That's why I can't understand someone call Fate mainstreemed and ordinary..

  26. #56
    Dependent yarn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Amouage Fate. Why so much hate?

    So, I gave Fate a full wearing last night and can report the following.

    The curry note was prominent at the start - my wife recoiled when asked what she thought of this one (although I think that she says she hates everything that I try with a view to me not buying it therefor keeping costs down!)

    It pretty much stayed with the curry vibe for around 3 hours when suddenly I seemed to get a blast of orange - the scent didn't really alter from the curry vibe but it just seemed to add on the orange note.

    And this for me is why Fate gets a fair bit of hate. I agree that it is well made, it is interesting etc. but I think at its core the curry vibe is not what most people want to smell like.

    I gave it a go, but for me it is not one of the best from this house

  27. #57
    Basenotes Institution L'Homme Blanc Individuel's Avatar
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    Default Re: Amouage Fate. Why so much hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by yarn View Post
    The curry note was prominent at the start - my wife recoiled when asked what she thought of this one (although I think that she says she hates everything that I try with a view to me not buying it therefor keeping costs down!)
    Here's something to keep in mind.

    I spent many years working in the music biz. If you ask people about music, they'll tell you how much they love new music and want more of it. But if you play new music on the radio, they'll change the station in less than ten seconds. Ten Seconds. I'm not kidding. There's a wide gap between what people like and what people THINK they like. Talk to your friends about what foods they like and then pay attention to what they eat. "I love going to new places and trying new things..." says they guy who goes to the same places again and again and again.

    People say they like new things. Different things. The unexpected. Out of the norm. But if you give them something new, different, unexpected and out of the norm, you'll see them recoil pretty quickly.

    People like what they know. And Fate isn't the sort of scent most people know on skin. It's challenging. In my opinion, Fate Man is a niche among niche lovers. I enjoyed sampling it, but I'd never buy it. But Interlude Man thrills me to the point that it's my all time favorite scent.
    Current Favorites (in no particular order)
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    CK One
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    Green Irish Tweed
    Les Exclusifs Eau de Cologne
    Terre d'Hermes Parfum
    Pomelo Paradis
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    Hanae Mori H.M. EDT

  28. #58

    Default Re: Amouage Fate. Why so much hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by L'Homme Blanc Individuel View Post
    Here's something to keep in mind.

    I spent many years working in the music biz. If you ask people about music, they'll tell you how much they love new music and want more of it. But if you play new music on the radio, they'll change the station in less than ten seconds. Ten Seconds. I'm not kidding. There's a wide gap between what people like and what people THINK they like. Talk to your friends about what foods they like and then pay attention to what they eat. "I love going to new places and trying new things..." says they guy who goes to the same places again and again and again.

    People say they like new things. Different things. The unexpected. Out of the norm. But if you give them something new, different, unexpected and out of the norm, you'll see them recoil pretty quickly.

    People like what they know. And Fate isn't the sort of scent most people know on skin. It's challenging. In my opinion, Fate Man is a niche among niche lovers. I enjoyed sampling it, but I'd never buy it. But Interlude Man thrills me to the point that it's my all time favorite scent.
    He he.. Thank Good people have different taste. Interlude is my least favourite from the Amouage line. I rather walk around smelling like curry instead of oregano!

  29. #59

    Default Re: Amouage Fate. Why so much hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by mr. reasonable View Post
    I think this person made his intentions clear enough in this earlier post - there is no point arguing or trying to offer a common sense rebuttal to childish ill-intent. This is trolling and disrupting the Thread from the original discussion.

    His comment on a nearby Thread that Amouage Gold smells like 'the dried spit of someone who hasn't brushed their teeth' should be more than enough to alert anyone wishing to actually discuss things that he is best ignored or removed.

    Christopher Chong mentioned to me years ago that the main reason he didn't participate in Basenotes discussions was not for the want of being able to have an actual discussion, but what he cited as 'poor moderation' and, frankly, an open declaration to slam a brand and comments like the Gold one add nothing to the credibility of Basenotes or the level of discussion.

    Sorry to sound like a bore but Basenotes is not a free-for-all and childish shit like this is what has driven a lot of people away - sad.
    I don't want to argue anymore but it seems that people cannot accept opinion that is opposite from them. My point is clear of what I feel about it, is there anything in my words that makes my opinion less worthy than yours? What makes my posts "childish ill-intent", "childish shit", "trolling and disrupting"

    The last time I check basenotes is a free for all place, not a place that only good things about Christopher Chong are allowed.

    It seems that Amouage is becoming the new Creed in term of when people say bad things about them then they will get personal attacked

    Can the Moderators jump in and clarify on this? In the meantime, I've just reported your post. I hope that bashing/personal attack posts like this won't be tolerated
    Last edited by jasonx; 14th May 2014 at 10:06 AM.

  30. #60

    Default Re: Amouage Fate. Why so much hate?

    Quote Originally Posted by jasonx View Post
    What makes my posts "childish ill-intent", "childish shit", "trolling and disrupting"
    Quote Originally Posted by jasonx View Post
    Gold Man - Dried spit of someone who has not brush his teeth in days lol
    Quote Originally Posted by jasonx View Post
    I guess there isn't a copyright for scent, so those who steal will keep stealing, those who support stealing will keep spending their money on stolen goods, as for me, I will keep saying bad things about them lol

    Quote Originally Posted by jasonx View Post
    The last time I check basenotes is a free for all place . . .
    http://www.basenotes.net/content/92-...ct-for-Members

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