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  1. #1

    Default Dazzling the Natural Perfumery Priestesses

    Hi Everyone,

    I've joined a short course on perfumery near my house, and it appears it's pretty much geared towards natural perfumery. They were talking about chemicals as contributing to low quality perfume, as bad, lowly.. you get the point. There was a lot of hidden dogma there (I was even told I'm not connected to my emotions by some lady to whom I've spoken 3 sentences).
    I thought of maybe improving the base accords we made to open their eyes (and nose) and maybe open someone's mind. I realized it's a bit self imposing, but I'm too excited to care..

    The first base was Labdanum, Frankincense and Oakmoss.. I though of maybe adding a fruity musk, Ambroxan, beta ionone, or HC Hedione.. Or maybe Safranal/Suederal.. What could be a real eye opener there?

    The second was Peru, Benzoin and Vetiver (a bit over dosed).. I have no experience with those Vetiver overdoses, but I thought of Vertofix/Cedryl Acetate, or Cedramber, Timbersilk/Super E.. Really not sure about this one..

    The main problem is that I only have one flask of each, so there's not much room for experimentation..

    Any directions will be appreciated

  2. #2

    Default Re: Dazzling the Natural Perfumery Priestesses

    I cant help you with the synthetics but I doubt you will change their minds. Their desire to use naturals only seems like a philosophical point and they sound pretty fixed in their assumptions. Sounds like N interesting project none the less.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Dazzling the Natural Perfumery Priestesses

    It didn't take me long to change my mind on synthetics. I could make some good points, but these will only relate on the mental level. A huge improvement from just one or two chemicals could have an emotional impact as well..

  4. #4

    Default Re: Dazzling the Natural Perfumery Priestesses

    First off, you are not connected to your emotions. Perhaps you are bored and just pretending to be excited.

    Having said that, (ha ha) there appears to be nothing wrong with the accords you are trying. Sounds like a good course. I think an excellent way to learn perfuming is to take some classic base notes and learn to combine them. After a hour on your skin, the intended smell should come through, and you can judge based on that smell. then you can add any kind of middle and top notes you want.

    You should treat the ionones as just another example of a classic base material, and try basic accords with that one too.

    As your next step you could make some floral accords for a heart note. Here you want to include some synthetics if you want a complete accord.

    If you want an immediate boost, try a musk or ambergris.

    Your vetiver might not be overdosed at all. But rather, there just isn't a heart or top note to mask the inferior heart and top aspect of vetiver. Again, wait an hour. I personally often like to keep balsamic notes modest when mixing with vetiver, because I like the complexity of the vetiver profile and don't want to drown it out. On the other hand, it is also well and good to use small amounts of vetiver with balsamic notes, if you are concentrating on the amber aspect as a goal.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Dazzling the Natural Perfumery Priestesses

    Let them drink their coolaid.

    But ask how much atranol and chloratranol is in the oakmoss?

    Ask how much Limonene is in the Frankincense?

    PK
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  6. #6

    Default Re: Dazzling the Natural Perfumery Priestesses

    Nizan, just read this and this line has really tickled me...I was even told I'm not connected to my emotions by some lady to whom I've spoken 3 sentences....painted a really funny image in my mind, comedy gold, is she the teacher!!

  7. #7

    Default Re: Dazzling the Natural Perfumery Priestesses

    It's not the teacher - he seems pretty open minded.. There's a majority of aromatherapists there, so this reaction was expected. Paul - I don't think they're really interested in this kind of arguments - I could have just given them the Rosewood example, which is extreme, to make a point, but I suspect it will be in vain.
    DrSmell - I didn't understand you suggestion, did you mean to leave the base accords as they are (we'll be building upon them later in the course), or to wear them a while and see what they're asking for?

    Anyhow, I think for the Vetiver accord I will add a musk or two, and Cedramber (if it seems to work with the musk), and for the Frankincense just IES and Amyl Salicylate..

    Maybe..

    Actually, that's not the first time a lady is this aggressive with me (I consider that sort of thing an aggression). I guess I just tamed the acrid aspects of my social interactions too much.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Dazzling the Natural Perfumery Priestesses

    Natural perfumery as a philosophy is fine. As an ideology it's crippling.

    sent from a mobile device - please excuse any smelling mistakes
    My Wardrobe
    II est de forts parfums pour qui toute matière/Est poreuse. On dirait qu'ils pénètrent le verre.

  9. #9
    Dependent pluran's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dazzling the Natural Perfumery Priestesses

    Quote Originally Posted by the_good_life View Post
    Natural perfumery as a philosophy is fine. As an ideology it's crippling....
    +1

    And it usually makes fragrances with the bone structure of a sea cucumber. :-)
    Last edited by pluran; 14th May 2014 at 10:22 AM.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Dazzling the Natural Perfumery Priestesses

    Nizan, all I meant is that the accords they are making you try are good ones to try. Labdanum, frankincense and oakmoss will teach you a lot about themselves. And also I meant that to evaluate base accords, you do not evaluate them on first smell, but over time, I think it usually takes roughly an hour to be able to evaluate a natural base accord, to let the often inferior top notes dissipate.

    A lack of synthetics will keep you from having all the tools to design a complete modern fragrance (though not an ancient perfume). But that doesn't mean you can't make a good accord out of naturals, and learn to appreciate and understand it. You can do that with just patchouli and oakmoss, or any other combination of classic materials. Whether something is synthetic or not doesn't really make a difference for learning basic accords. I hope I just made sense

  11. #11

    Default Re: Dazzling the Natural Perfumery Priestesses

    It is, of course, much harder to learn the basics whilst using only naturals. Naturals contain hundreds of chemicals each one mixing with and affecting the others. You can get some very complicated results. But you will learn. Easier to start with aromacheicals, although the simple mixes will not be so interesting, but will probably be of greater use.

  12. #12
    gecko214's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dazzling the Natural Perfumery Priestesses

    Nizan as you say natural perfumery is a philosophical stance more than anything although I would also say there is a certain aesthetic to it as well which I can understand. I think you will fail to convert people but you might have some interesting exchanges if you brought them some samples of some of the more interesting molecules made synthetically, such as norlimbanol, ambroxan, hedion (maybe show something with and without hedion to show the effect) some musks, Iso e super, or such. I think one of the things people believe about ACs is that they are "harsh" or "chemical" smelling, and it would be nice at least to show this is not (always) the case.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Dazzling the Natural Perfumery Priestesses

    Yes, I've already asked the teacher for an extra session to do just that. Maybe I'll even use it for some meditations on smell, or for more in-depth note taking of single notes. But I didn't get an answer yet.
    The thing is those base accords are pretty boring for me, so far.. They're less synergistic that I expected - usually one odor dominates. My fingers are really itching to put in some chemicals in there. Also, I'm thinking of the gain - if someone changes their mind there, they might create something quite wonderful!

    David - following your advice from the past, I usually work with many more aroma chemicals in my experimenting. Except for one case, where I didn't have any terpenes, and had to work with whatever natural I could find to get somewhere.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Dazzling the Natural Perfumery Priestesses

    Argh..
    I added about 3% of musks (ketone and ambrettolide) and it really too the edge off, to a point the whole thing smells half as strong. Is this something that happens with musks? Didn't think 3% would be too much, but could it?
    (I'm suspecting the musk ketone - it's supposed to be 10% in DPG, but the bottle is filled with gewy white crystals.. )
    As I said, argh.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Dazzling the Natural Perfumery Priestesses

    Oh dear, Nizan. Why not try some simple experiments before you start chucking in vast amounts of chemicals without really knowing what will happen. Sometimes, depending on what is already there, 3.0% Musk Ketone will be way too much; other times it won't be enough. I assume you are adding the musk to a mixture of naturals, as you are trying to persuade the all natural group to listen to sense. So you are adding a lot of a single chemical to hundreds of other chemicals, without knowing anything about the result. And you are surprised.

    Also you are quite happy to use a solution that hasn't dissolved properly. Haven't you had problems with your DPG before? Maybe you should find out at what level you can dissolve Musk Ketone, and use that. A 10.0% solution is pushing it; the Nitromusks are quite difficult to dissolve.

    Nizan, I admire your enthusiasm but I wish it were tempered with a little scientific caution.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Dazzling the Natural Perfumery Priestesses

    I was surprised just because of that.. I was thinking - what could go wrong with so little musk? I guess I was too hasty with mixing - I keep reminding myself that this hobby needs forbearance. That's part of the reason I'm taking it up - to tame myself. I guess it will take a few year to acquire the required attributes (is this the right word?).
    As for the DPG - it's a bit annoying, but I guessed it will dissolve in the ethanol I put it into, and it did.. Usually I work with lower concentrations, so it's not a problem.
    On the up side, seems like Cedramber is playing *very* nicely with Vetiver.. It adds some depth and makes it less harsh.

    Thanks for caring

  17. #17

    Default Re: Dazzling the Natural Perfumery Priestesses

    I love your title. I shall be watching this thread with interest. (Just for the record I am not here as a stance, just pure interest.)

    How long is the course?

  18. #18

    Default Re: Dazzling the Natural Perfumery Priestesses

    Wait, are you one of the priestesses?
    (I guess that attitude is more common here than abroad, due to what a friend called the 'Jewish psyche', but I could be wrong).
    It's only three meeting, unfortunately, unless I manage convincing them on a fourth, on which I'll bring some aroma chemicals and work on some accords. And maybe some more prolonged meditations on smell, if I find a good 'protocol'.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Dazzling the Natural Perfumery Priestesses

    Added a tiny bit of Calone to the Vetiver mix.. Much happier with it, though I'm afraid it can't be taken in oriental direction anymore. We'll see where the teacher takes it.
    For the Chyprish mix - Ambrox and Bois Ambrene worked wonders

  20. #20

    Default Re: Dazzling the Natural Perfumery Priestesses

    Quote Originally Posted by Nizan View Post
    Wait, are you one of the priestesses?
    I like the title.

  21. #21

    Default Re: Dazzling the Natural Perfumery Priestesses

    Ok, so I'm reporting back with some success. For the last meeting I brought some chemicals, and it seems they were having lots of fun sniffing it from the bottle. Then we made a simplistic perfume, which I improved a bit by adding some older accords, plus Timbersilk and Ambroxan.. Seems that some people changed their minds, and they asked me to send them links to where I'm getting aromqchemicals.

  22. #22

    Default Re: Dazzling the Natural Perfumery Priestesses

    Good for them...

    PK
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  23. #23

    Default Re: Dazzling the Natural Perfumery Priestesses

    Well done, you made some conversions. Careful though, the Priestesses won't be happy.

  24. #24

    Default Re: Dazzling the Natural Perfumery Priestesses

    Luckily their god isn't listening

  25. #25

    Default Re: Dazzling the Natural Perfumery Priestesses

    If their god is not listening, then It would appear that their god is a slacker. This is something I have suspected for quite some time now. Confirmation of the fact has now been provided.

  26. #26

    Default Re: Dazzling the Natural Perfumery Priestesses

    Quote Originally Posted by pluran View Post
    +1

    And it usually makes fragrances with the bone structure of a sea cucumber. :-)
    I will stamp a priestesses foot for her at that comment. Lol.

  27. #27

    Default Re: Dazzling the Natural Perfumery Priestesses

    Quote Originally Posted by Nizan View Post
    It's not the teacher - he seems pretty open minded.. There's a majority of aromatherapists there, so this reaction was expected. Paul - I don't think they're really interested in this kind of arguments - I could have just given them the Rosewood example, which is extreme, to make a point, but I suspect it will be in vain.
    DrSmell - I didn't understand you suggestion, did you mean to leave the base accords as they are (we'll be building upon them later in the course), or to wear them a while and see what they're asking for?

    Anyhow, I think for the Vetiver accord I will add a musk or two, and Cedramber (if it seems to work with the musk), and for the Frankincense just IES and Amyl Salicylate..

    Maybe..

    Actually, that's not the first time a lady is this aggressive with me (I consider that sort of thing an aggression). I guess I just tamed the acrid aspects of my social interactions too much.
    The problem is the all natural dogma is the most substantial part of their (expected, but not realistic) future income stream, and money is the great brainwasher. The other force you'll have to wrestle with is their need for personal differentiation and the way they build their personalities via association. Their reaction / avoidance mechanism is built on the idea that you take away the virtue of "all natural" there will be nothing left. These are likely people that don't have too much going on other than this so they'll fight to the death to protect this idea in their minds.

    It' a losing battle already, don't bother.

    (PS I'm only describing the "aggressive" lady, not ALL people who start out using only naturals as you have obviously had some success with the moderates as you describe...)
    Last edited by oilsand; 6th June 2014 at 07:59 AM.

  28. #28

    Default Re: Dazzling the Natural Perfumery Priestesses

    I think it would have been nice if someone showed that Hedione or IES are anti-carcinogenic..

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