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  1. #31
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    Default Re: setting up a workspace: odor "prevention"

    Quote Originally Posted by Aldara View Post
    Gadgets!

    This shopping list of mine is building up :-)
    Note that she said she does not use them.
    I have them, and also do not use them.

    It's better to me to use simple plastic disposable pipettes.

    PK
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

  2. #32

    Default Re: setting up a workspace: odor "prevention"

    I have them and they are only redundant because I immediately found a different and better one that I use all the time. These came as a job lot with the metal ones.

    Your own method will evolve given time. Paul is right. You don't need expensive things at first unless money is no object for you.

    I used to use the plastic disposable pipettes. I couldn't afford to keep throwing them away every use, so I used to label them, wrap them and keep them for the one ingredient. Cons - when there are lots, they need keeping in alphabetical order. Plus they do split sometimes mid job.

    I love my pipettor. I looked for this particular one for a long time. It makes me happy every time I use it. Daft but true.

    Pros for the pipettor - it uses tiny tips that can be kept with the bottle it was used in. Wrapped, taped on and ready to use again. No more sorting out and looking for the right disposable pipette. There and ready for action every time with the right ingredient. No muddle. This suits me for now unless someone has a better method and then I might change.

    I do like the idea of a syringe and a rubber cap, but there are a couple of things that I would like to know.
    Does matter get on the 'outside' of that rubber skin from the outer part of the needle or does wiping each time prevent that?
    If one ingredient has been injected in, then if another ingredients injection site is the same hole, will it not cross contaminate?
    Do you use a different needle every time?
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  3. #33

    Default Re: setting up a workspace: odor "prevention"

    Quote Originally Posted by mumsy View Post
    I love my pipettor. I looked for this particular one for a long time. It makes me happy every time I use it. Daft but true.

    Pros for the pipettor - it uses tiny tips that can be kept with the bottle it was used in. Wrapped, taped on and ready to use again. No more sorting out and looking for the right disposable pipette. There and ready for action every time with the right ingredient. No muddle. This suits me for now unless someone has a better method and then I might change.
    Practical things that makes life easy - of course it make you happy.

    I all boils down to cost, and i suspect that your solution will (At least in my part of the world) be the most long term economical solution.
    I also suspect that i will accumulate quite an amount of plastic thrash using the disposable ones.

  4. #34
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    Default Re: setting up a workspace: odor "prevention"

    Quote Originally Posted by Aldara View Post
    JEBeasley: The colour coding of the bottles .. your own system?
    When I originally set it up I had no idea what the color coding should be, I just used them as basic labels with material name, dilution % and solvent(s). Now that I've had some time to get my feet wet I am devising a system because I have found them useful. Those paper dots don't provide enough room to legibly write all of the information I want. What I plan to do is create/print/type-face, full bottle, square, labels with the name of the material, solvent(s), dilution %, number of hours on test strip and basic description. I'll use smalller colored dots or stickers to indicate scent family or category (wood, amber, musk, animalic, balsamic, green, floral, etc).

    I currently have about 80% of my materials diluted and it's getting harder and harder to find and keep track of everything. In order to keep things sane I have to plan out basic accords, set aside the materials I think I will need, before hand and then hunt for the rest to fill in the gaps once I have my basic structure. It is time consuming having to look through several hundred dropper bottles to find a particular material but I can sometimes remember the color of the dot and that does really help to narrow it down. So, the colored dots are definitely useful for narrowing down what and where a particular material is when your eyes and fingers have to swim through an ocean of them.

    I like my pipettor but I use it mostly to pipette raw materials that aren't already diluted. When I dilute them I just use the clean/new bottle dropper to add raw material to a new bottle and then add solvents using wash bottles; the dropper in each bottle is used from then on for blending. When my auto pipettor tips are all used up I can clean/soak them with isopropyl alcohol and then soap and water and dry and re-use them - I do this a few times before throwing them out. Bulk pipettor tips at $12-$13/1000 are quite a bit less expensive than regular pipettes and they are easier to clean. I'm pretty frugal and I don't like to put more into the landfill than is necessary. At this point I'm not sure how important an auto-pipettor is considering how infrequently I use it but I can see a day when I'll be blending raw materials only and that's when I'll need it most and often. So, in the beginning, you might be better off buying more materials and bottles and buy the auto pipettor later if you need it. There was someone on this board who said, a while ago, that they use glass capillary tubes for blending so that they didn't waste materials, that seems like the ultimate in frugality but I can't imagine working with such a small quantity of materials while mixing, that would drive me up a wall.
    Last edited by JEBeasley; 15th October 2014 at 11:38 PM.
    Justin E. Beasley

  5. #35

    Default Re: setting up a workspace: odor "prevention"

    Quote Originally Posted by mumsy View Post
    Pros for the pipettor - it uses tiny tips that can be kept with the bottle it was used in. Wrapped, taped on and ready to use again. No more sorting out and looking for the right disposable pipette. There and ready for action every time with the right ingredient. No muddle. This suits me for now unless someone has a better method and then I might change.
    A slight problem with re-suing plastic, and plastic & aromatics in generals. Most aromatics will dissolve the plastic in time. Not much to see with the bare eye, but you'll end up with quite a lot of dissolved plastic in your end formula. I did lots of analysis of DIY and artisan blends in the past and I was astounded to see how high the percentage of plastics was in the end product. Not safe. Scent & chemistry also did a few posts on FB about this.

    I would highly recommend to use either glass or dispose of plastic after use. Don't use dropper caps either and make sure your caps have an aluminum inlay.

    As from an environmental point of view plastic recycling is now days one of the easiest and greenest ways to deal with landfills
    http://environment.about.com/od/recy...-recycling.htm
    @SomethingSmelly

  6. #36

    Default Re: setting up a workspace: odor "prevention"

    I wipe them after each use and flush them out with a drop of ethanol to clean it. It is held firm with tape to the right bottle on a tissue 'holster' so that when I hold the pipettor, I just plunge the end straight into the right tip when using that ingredient, then rinse and replace to use another from another bottle. It makes the process of blending efficient and fast with no contamination or smell. Any doubt on a tip to bottle marriage and it goes in the bin. Seriously unglamorous again but it works for me.

    These are high tips, I changed to low tips because I kept knocking bottles over, so now my tips are the same height as the bottles.

    Last edited by mumsy; 16th October 2014 at 07:37 AM.
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  7. #37

    Default Re: setting up a workspace: odor "prevention"

    Thanks for that information Irina. Most useful to know.

    I shall now use glass when blending any final perfumes. These are only for blending samples from the sample dilution bottles so it won't matter at all. Plus the plastic only stays in contact with the aromatic for a very short time. I hope it takes ages to dissolve plastic tips.
    The PONK club - gymnosium for perfumers (NOTE:- New club matters on hold whilst I care for my mum)

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  8. #38

    Default Re: setting up a workspace: odor "prevention"

    Quote Originally Posted by mumsy View Post
    Thanks for that information Irina. Most useful to know.

    I shall now use glass when blending any final perfumes. These are only for blending samples from the sample dilution bottles so it won't matter at all. Plus the plastic only stays in contact with the aromatic for a very short time. I hope it takes ages to dissolve plastic tips.
    No, I mean that all those little tiny bits of plastic in all those tiny different dilutions, all put together will add up to a not so tiny amount of plastic polymers (like some harmful phthalates esp. dioctyl phthalate/DEHP which is banned in the EU in cosmetics) into your final formula.
    Fine for DIY and personal use. Not so much if you are gifting your blends to others or are planning to sell (in the future).

    (and from your picture I see you wrap them in paper napkins, another medium that is very susceptible to all kinds of contamination. You could use aluminum wrap foil for a cleaner solution)
    Last edited by Irina; 16th October 2014 at 08:30 AM.
    @SomethingSmelly

  9. #39

    Default Re: setting up a workspace: odor "prevention"

    These bottles, tips and the tissue don't ever touch final blends. These are in the blending cupboard and nothing of them goes in the real ones thank goodness. Only in my little own sample blends for smelling.

    I'm so glad you told us of this. This forum is a godsend with people like you with your kind of knowledge. Thank you.
    The PONK club - gymnosium for perfumers (NOTE:- New club matters on hold whilst I care for my mum)

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  10. #40
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    Default Re: setting up a workspace: odor "prevention"

    Irina, I'm not challenging your research or experience, I believe what you are saying, just wondering if different plastics and different pipettes were tested or if all plastics have been lumped into the results? I'd be curious to know if auto-pipette tips which are frequently used for chemistry work and are auto-clavable break down as readily as plastics that aren't made for chemistry work. Also, were the plastics present in the materials prior to using them - were they stored in metal containers lined with plastic coatings, etc? Is there a difference between the materials available to artisan perfumers compared to what is available to corporate perfumers (dilution, adulterants, etc)? As I look around I notice that all of my raw materials are in glass bottles but they all have plastic (phenolic) caps with poly cone inserts, is it possible that those poly cone inserts might be a contributor? I rarely use my plastic pipette tips right now but I may in the future. Also, I'm not invested in the results or answers in either direction as it's nether expensive nor an inconvenience to change habits, just wondering. Thanks for your input BTW.
    Justin E. Beasley

  11. #41

    Default Re: setting up a workspace: odor "prevention"

    You're most welcome, mumsy, I learn from you every day, I'm glad I can give back a bit

    Justin, plastic are complex chemicals (polymers) and polymer chemistry is a specialism that goes beyond my knowledge. But here are the basics that I've learned regarding fragrance materials and their storage & handling.

    There are a few forms of plastic used in packaging & handling of aromatics. Most common practices exclude using plastics that are too flexible. (that's why you need to check and follow the MSDS sheets on storage & handling and if a MSDS is unclear on that, you need to contact the supplier and hope they know their stuff) Flexibility in plastics means a high plasticity, means a plasticizer is involved. Unfortunately it is these plasticizers like phtalates that get easily 'detached' from the main polymers by a huge number of solvents. Most aromatics have solvent properties so there you go: problem. The leached plastics can come from pipettes, plastic coatings (styrofoam), pvc caps, synthetic rubber, even the plastic used for the spray mechanism in atomizers. As I said, all those tiny bits add up.

    The main problem with DIY is that most people begin blending from a passion for art, but in order to make safe fragrances, you need some kind of basic life science & lab skills. This includes a basic knowledge of GMP = general manufacturing practice.
    Another problem is that most hobbyists store their materials for too long or buy the materials from small distributors, where their storage & handling practices (decanting) will always have a negative impact on the quality of the product.
    It would take too much time to explain skills that are acquired by years of scientific education, so I try to explain where I can...
    Last edited by Irina; 17th October 2014 at 02:40 PM.
    @SomethingSmelly

  12. #42

    Default Re: setting up a workspace: odor "prevention"

    Basic thing seems to be to use glass wherever practical.

    Even professional scents have plastic atomiser parts in the final bottle. We can't quite avoid it.
    The PONK club - gymnosium for perfumers (NOTE:- New club matters on hold whilst I care for my mum)

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  13. #43

    Default Re: setting up a workspace: odor "prevention"

    Quote Originally Posted by mumsy View Post
    Basic thing seems to be to use glass wherever practical.

    Even professional scents have plastic atomiser parts in the final bottle. We can't quite avoid it.
    Indeed. That last step is unavoidable. It's the other many many prior steps one can improve
    @SomethingSmelly

  14. #44

    Default Re: setting up a workspace: odor "prevention"

    Quote Originally Posted by Irina View Post
    There are a few forms of plastic used in packaging & handling of aromatics. Most common practices exclude using plastics that are too flexible. (that's why you need to check and follow the MSDS sheets on storage & handling and if a MSDS is unclear on that, you need to contact the supplier and hope they know their stuff) Flexibility in plastics means a high plasticity, means a plasticizer is involved. Unfortunately it is these plasticizers like phtalates that get easily 'detached' from the main polymers by a huge number of solvents. Most aromatics have solvent properties so there you go: problem. The leached plastics can come from pipettes, plastic coatings (styrofoam), pvc caps, synthetic rubber, even the plastic used for the spray mechanism in atomizers. As I said, all those tiny bits add up.
    I'll add that the phtalates is also considered to "leak" off from your lunch box (or your kids lunch box) from toys (witch kids love to put in their mouth) from drinking bottles and so on.

    I might be wrong but i recall EU talking about banning phtalates due to it so easily being transported into the body of especially children. Perfume will be no different. All thoug you dont eat it, one will tend to apply the perfume close to the large veins were some of it will enter the bloodstream.

    A penny her and a penny there ... soon ads up to serious money.

  15. #45
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    Default Re: setting up a workspace: odor "prevention"

    Quote Originally Posted by Irina View Post
    You're most welcome, mumsy, I learn from you every day, I'm glad I can give back a bit

    Justin, plastic are complex chemicals (polymers) and polymer chemistry is a specialism that goes beyond my knowledge. But here are the basics that I've learned regarding fragrance materials and their storage & handling.

    There are a few forms of plastic used in packaging & handling of aromatics. Most common practices exclude using plastics that are too flexible. (that's why you need to check and follow the MSDS sheets on storage & handling and if a MSDS is unclear on that, you need to contact the supplier and hope they know their stuff) Flexibility in plastics means a high plasticity, means a plasticizer is involved. Unfortunately it is these plasticizers like phtalates that get easily 'detached' from the main polymers by a huge number of solvents. Most aromatics have solvent properties so there you go: problem. The leached plastics can come from pipettes, plastic coatings (styrofoam), pvc caps, synthetic rubber, even the plastic used for the spray mechanism in atomizers. As I said, all those tiny bits add up.

    The main problem with DIY is that most people begin blending from a passion for art, but in order to make safe fragrances, you need some kind of basic life science & lab skills. This includes a basic knowledge of GMP = general manufacturing practice.
    Another problem is that most hobbyists store their materials for too long or buy the materials from small distributors, where their storage & handling practices (decanting) will always have a negative impact on the quality of the product.
    It would take too much time to explain skills that are acquired by years of scientific education, so I try to explain where I can...
    Thank you for that explanation Irina. So the polycaps inside of the bottles do contribute as they are pretty soft; the outer cap, however, is a hard and rigid plastic.
    Justin E. Beasley

  16. #46

    Default Re: setting up a workspace: odor "prevention"

    Hence in older labs one would have had ground glass stoppers. I have only a few like that, and they are actually very nice to use. I'd love to have a labful. The Arabian ones are nice. The glass top twists and a cut channel makes for a pouring line to the lip.
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  17. #47

    Default Re: setting up a workspace: odor "prevention"

    Quote Originally Posted by Aldara View Post
    Hi there...

    What did you land on? I in a similar setting. My office in the basement has to serve as a "lab". See you also mention something about a glass table... I take it a wood desk is not the best option?

    Recently posted a thread called the diy lab, and im very interested in hearing about how your "lab" is set up,
    I ended up taking drastic measures. Demolished the old garden house and built a new one. All problems have been solved

  18. #48

    Default Re: setting up a workspace: odor "prevention"

    Quote Originally Posted by thomash View Post
    I ended up taking drastic measures. Demolished the old garden house and built a new one. All problems have been solved
    That is my evil plan one day too.... the greenhouse is in for the chop.....
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  19. #49

    Default Re: setting up a workspace: odor "prevention"

    I found these in a box whilst clearing up yesterday. Small glass stoppered bottles with the pouring groove and dripper guide. I presume they are for oils. I found them on ebay long ago and bought eight. (and had since 'lost' them). I wish I had bought more.

    The PONK club - gymnosium for perfumers (NOTE:- New club matters on hold whilst I care for my mum)

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  20. #50

    Default Re: setting up a workspace: odor "prevention"

    Quote Originally Posted by mumsy View Post
    I found these in a box whilst clearing up yesterday. Small glass stoppered bottles with the pouring groove and dripper guide. I presume they are for oils. I found them on ebay long ago and bought eight. (and had since 'lost' them). I wish I had bought more.

    What a lovely thing! Think of the design and craftsmanship that goes into making something like that and it’s hard not to be impressed. From the picture it looks hand-made rather than machine pressed too.
    Battle cries and champagne just in time for sunrise..”
    ― David Bowie
    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    Fine fragrances hand made in The Shire
    Quality perfume making ingredients
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume
    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation I’m happy to quote: if you want free advice, that’s what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog for more info about perfumes and perfumery.

  21. #51

    Default Re: setting up a workspace: odor "prevention"

    The seams are apparent but the slot line up is even inside the bottle under the side handles, so a twist allows the flow without loosening the stopper. Very clever. I suspect for Arabian oils but have no real idea.

    The PONK club - gymnosium for perfumers (NOTE:- New club matters on hold whilst I care for my mum)

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  22. #52

    Default Re: setting up a workspace: odor "prevention"

    Ah OK yes I can see seams now so must be pressed glass (so probably not antiques!) but still that’s a beautiful bit of design. I imagine they’d work perfectly with an oil based fragrance or perhaps a dropping oil for burners etc.
    Battle cries and champagne just in time for sunrise..”
    ― David Bowie
    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    Fine fragrances hand made in The Shire
    Quality perfume making ingredients
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume
    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation I’m happy to quote: if you want free advice, that’s what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog for more info about perfumes and perfumery.

  23. #53

    Default Re: setting up a workspace: odor "prevention"

    This is driving me crazy ...

    I need something to put the test strips in ... The best thing i found so far is an old keyboard, and it's no good. The test strips keep falling over and it's just a fr¤¤¤ chaos.

    In the Youtube videos with Givaudan you can see they have som posh fancy boxy thing they have the strips in. I want something like that. Does anyone now what it's called, were i can buy etc?

  24. #54

    Default Re: setting up a workspace: odor "prevention"

    I use crocodile clips resting in the bottles. I can bunch them like flowers. Since showing them covered with sawn off plastic bottles, have discovered it is easier and more stable with a glass. The edges of corrugated cardboard are also good. You can fold the strips and pop them into the holes in a line. Also oasis block is useful.

    image.jpg

    @Aldara Do you mean this thing?

    image.jpg
    Last edited by mumsy; 28th October 2014 at 10:08 PM.
    The PONK club - gymnosium for perfumers (NOTE:- New club matters on hold whilst I care for my mum)

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  25. #55
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    Default Re: setting up a workspace: odor "prevention"

    There's a variety of things, Clothespins nailed to 2x4's, Chip bag Clips, and I use these sputnik Note Holders, I got four for $20 somewhere:
    http://www.amazon.com/Kikkerland-Spu.../dp/B000HHXTAO

    At one time I was trying to get a prototype done for a strip holder of my own design, but I never had the capital necessary.

    PK
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

  26. #56
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    Default Re: setting up a workspace: odor "prevention"

    Oh, and I also have used this funky woven floral arrangement doodad.
    Strip Holder Floral device.jpg
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

  27. #57

    Default Re: setting up a workspace: odor "prevention"

    Thats creative for sure! :-)

    I think your arrangement would drive me even mader... i would give it about 2 min and id accidentally bump into it and make a mess.

    Think im gonna have to track down some sort of polyethylene boxes and make my own, but i was hoping there could be something to order from ebay.

  28. #58

    Default Re: setting up a workspace: odor "prevention"

    Quote Originally Posted by mumsy View Post
    I use crocodile clips resting in the bottles. I can bunch them like flowers. Since showing them covered with sawn off plastic bottles, have discovered it is easier and more stable with a glass. The edges of corrugated cardboard are also good. You can fold the strips and pop them into the holes in a line. Also oasis block is useful.

    image.jpg

    @Aldara Do you mean this thing?

    image.jpg
    Yes thats the one ... didnt realise it's actually a clip of some sort. The tips about oasis block is worth a check.

  29. #59

    Default Re: setting up a workspace: odor "prevention"

    I found this one the other day.



    I have a metal-worker friend and I might commission one along these lines. It is the best one I've seen for looks and ease.
    The PONK club - gymnosium for perfumers (NOTE:- New club matters on hold whilst I care for my mum)

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    A perfumed life - Tinctures, perfumes, cordials, wines and ingredients

  30. #60

    Default Re: setting up a workspace: odor "prevention"

    well... be sure to post a thread if its possible. I've been looking around for a decent clip .. and found nothing.




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