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  1. #1

    Default Identity help, Please...

    At the front entrance of a garden today was this wonderful tree in riotous bloom.

    It looked very close to a citrus tree, by size and leaf shape. But the Garden people had never seen it fruit.
    They are experienced, and have researched it, but have not successfully ID'd the tree. These flowers are on the under side of the branches. (you can see that these are the leaf undersides shown.)

    The odor is sweet PEA/citrus blossom. In addition to the normal sweet orange blossom type odor was a very strong Phenyl Ethyl Alcohol sweetness. In fact I'd say that it is more PEA than Orange Blossom. And it also had a dose of indole. Tall tree, about 25' (7.5 meters)

    Ideas?

    :-)

    Thanks,
    PK

    Mystery Flower 1.jpg
    Paul Kiler
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  2. #2

    Default Re: Identity help, Please...

    Is it some kind of Choisya http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choisya
    Do you have a pic of the entire form of the plant?
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  3. #3
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    Default Re: Identity help, Please...

    The leaves look like a citrus.
    Maybe a Pomelo?
    Last edited by lpp; 22nd June 2014 at 09:36 AM.
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  4. #4

    Default Re: Identity help, Please...

    It looks as though the stigmas may be the wrong shape for a Choisya, Citrus or a Pomelo but I don't have a better suggestion to give. It might be worth posting it on a botanical or gardening forum. You can sometimes force a plant to set fruit by spraying the blossoms with a solution of gibberellic acid, but it would be a lot of effort just to identify a plant. Not to mention the hassle of asking for the owner's permission.
    Last edited by Pears; 22nd June 2014 at 02:00 PM.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Identity help, Please...

    It might be some variety (ie. some species) of Mock Orange...one of various species of Philadelphus.

    Compare to Philadelphus coronarius:

    Mock Orange.jpg
    Last edited by islearom; 22nd June 2014 at 04:11 PM.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Identity help, Please...

    The leaves appear thicker than a Philadelphus to me.

    It will be interesting to find out what is is
    Last edited by lpp; 22nd June 2014 at 07:49 PM.
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  7. #7
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    Default Re: Identity help, Please...

    Hmm. This is in Los Angeles, right? Hot, dry climate...but with sufficient water and perhaps shade, tropical and sub-tropical fruits could be grown there...I can tell you that trees with fragrant, pendant white flowers are often pollinated by moths at night, if that gives a clue. I have a strong suspicion that it's some sort of tropical fruit or spice. There's a fascinating tropical fruit & spice park on Sanibel Island, Florida, which I visited around Christmas 2012. I bought their guidebook, but can't find it at the moment, and don't have more time to look for it right now. But when I do find it, I'll have a look in there and see if there's anything similar.
    "Just as the waters of all the great oceans of the world have but one taste, the taste of salt, so too do all true teachings have but one taste - the taste of liberation." --The Buddha

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Identity help, Please...

    Thanks, velvetseven - there's a good website from around that way but they don't have pics for all of the plants.
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  9. #9

    Default Re: Identity help, Please...

    IPP, Philadelphus is the genus, there are many species within the genus. Not to say that I know that the plant is definitely a mock orange. It does look to me though that it is a possibility. Mock Orange flower scent is fairly close to that of Orange Blossom (flowers), therefore the common name.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Identity help, Please...

    Yes, I know islearom, but the leaves are unlike any Philadelphus that I've ever seen (they're closer to the Choisya) - you may well be quite correct 'though.
    Last edited by lpp; 22nd June 2014 at 08:26 PM.
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  11. #11

    Default Re: Identity help, Please...

    To add some more Latin Nomenclature related confusion...there is also the genus Pittosporum, which contains a couple hundred species, and of which, some as well go under the name of "Mock Orange".

  12. #12

    Default Re: Identity help, Please...

    Isn't Choisya in the Bombax family?

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Identity help, Please...

    No clue these days - I thought that it was in the Rutaceae.
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  14. #14

    Default Re: Identity help, Please...

    I see you are right on Choisya being in the Rutaceae...I was mixing that up with Chorisia (a member of the Bombacaceae), my error. Paul's image does look similar to Choisya...shall be interesting to find out whenever we do, I'm curious about the identity of the plant in that picture.

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Identity help, Please...

    Me too
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  16. #16

    Default Re: Identity help, Please...

    OK, Sorry for being absent... Tree has never fruited, so that possibly means not a fruit tree. looks quite like a ficus tree in appearance, shape and height. (probably smaller than LARGE ficus trees though)

    Clearly a different flower from the Philadelphia. And the Philadelphia flowers on top of the branches, while this tree flowers UNDER the branches...


    PK
    Paul Kiler
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  17. #17

    Default Re: Identity help, Please...

    Are the flowers a true flower or are they bracts (or similar). They look sort of waxy in the photo - are they tough or soft?
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  18. #18

    Default Re: Identity help, Please...

    Quote Originally Posted by Niche1 View Post
    Are the flowers a true flower or are they bracts (or similar). They look sort of waxy in the photo - are they tough or soft?

    Don't know what Bracts are... I brought that branch home, they wilted very quickly, out of water... I tend to think they are real flowers though, although I can't be sure since I don't know what Bracts are......

    PK
    Paul Kiler
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  19. #19

    Default Re: Identity help, Please...

    Sounds as though they're true flowers. In case you're interested : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bract
    I'll keep hunting around for what this is - because it's bugging me.
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  20. #20

    Default Re: Identity help, Please...

    Immediate guess was dogwood, but I have nothing to back that up, and I am probably wrong.

  21. #21

    Default Re: Identity help, Please...

    Quote Originally Posted by DrSmellThis View Post
    Immediate guess was dogwood, but I have nothing to back that up, and I am probably wrong.
    I'll say no to Dogwood, because the Dogwood flowers have four petals, these have five. and the leaves are very veined in Dogwood, and these are not. These leaves, and tree structure is more Ficus oriented.

    I've got ALL my Perfuming friends, WORLDWIDE looking this one up, This is really fun! :-)
    Facebook and BN too!


    PK
    Paul Kiler
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  22. #22
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    Default Re: Identity help, Please...

    It's the trickiest one that I've seen here so far, Paul - absolutely fascinating

    If the conditions are not right for fruiting it might not anyway even if it should.

    Sent a pic to Kew in case they have any ideas btw.
    Last edited by lpp; 23rd June 2014 at 09:46 AM.
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  23. #23

    Default Re: Identity help, Please...

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post
    OK, Sorry for being absent... Tree has never fruited, so that possibly means not a fruit tree.
    It might be worth visiting again in a few weeks, to see if any seeds, fruits or elaiosomes, etc. are forming. One possibility is that it's self-sterile and needs another plant to cross-pollinate with. Or, it may have been cultivated to not bear fruit, similar to some of the Ornamental cherries. It's quite disappointing to be surrounded by Cherry trees that don't bear any fruit, although they're useful in public places, where the cherries would just litter the ground and make a mess.
    Last edited by Pears; 23rd June 2014 at 11:32 AM.

  24. #24
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    Default Re: Identity help, Please...

    Not a citrus. Not bananas, pineapple, avocado, mangoes, persimmon, pomegranate, papaya, dragonfruit, starfruit, or guava. Not coffee, tea, cacao, cloves, cinnamon, or star anise. Not custard apple, java apple, tamarind, lychee, sapodilla, breadfruit, tropical fig, or jackfruit. Not macadamia, cashew or brazil nut. Not durian! So frustrating, because it looks so familiar. I still can't find my tropical fruit & spice park book. Paul, were the tips of the leaves pointed? Hard to tell from the photo.

    But I have found, on an Australian exotic fruit forum, that some tropical fruit trees will flower but not set fruit at the edges of their range. I have also learned that there are a great many more tropical fruit varieties than I ever imagined.
    Last edited by velvetseven; 23rd June 2014 at 07:14 PM.
    "Just as the waters of all the great oceans of the world have but one taste, the taste of salt, so too do all true teachings have but one taste - the taste of liberation." --The Buddha

  25. #25
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    Default Re: Identity help, Please...

    Yes, apparently desert type wind is unhelpful for fruiting as well!

    A pic of the whole tree, plus the topside of the leaves might be useful in due course.


    As Pears suggests, a later visit with pics of what happens after the flowers have died might be good if it's still a mystery in a few weeks!

    Also, is it evergreen or deciduous?
    Last edited by lpp; 23rd June 2014 at 07:00 PM.
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  26. #26

    Default Re: Identity help, Please...

    Mmmm. Thanks folks. Will revisit the garden later this week, I'm waiting for the Corpse Flower to bloom to return.

    You can watch realtime video of the Corpse flower here:
    http://www.orangecoastcollege.edu/ac...ettia-Cam.aspx

    Will take more pics of our Mystery guest then...

    PK
    Paul Kiler
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    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  27. #27

    Default Re: Identity help, Please...

    Oh, Sorry, I realized I could reshoot the leaves today, here attached
    Mystery tree leaves.jpg

    PK
    Paul Kiler
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    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  28. #28

    Default Re: Identity help, Please...

    One of those bloomed in DC last year. The one in DC at least stinked only for less than a day from the moment it opened, so if it's the same, you really need to go there right away. I missed the stink part because the lines were enormous.

    cacio

  29. #29
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    Default Re: Identity help, Please...

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  30. #30

    Default Re: Identity help, Please...

    I can see the similarity in the stamens and anthers in the Top Tropicals pic, but I think the Magnolias tend not to have the large clusters of flowers as shown in Paul's picture. Also, flowers of trees in the magnolia family tend to be larger than what appears to be the case in the image of the unidentified botanical.

    As to the ficus possibility, I have never taken notice of flowers on a ficus (and I have been in the vicinity of many ficus trees in my lifetime), not to suggest that they do not exist, but they are definitely not prominent...per the writing on the topic of Ficus flowers, from a ficus group: "Ficus have a very specific way of being pollinated and seeing a picture of a typical flower with petals is a guarantee that you are not looking at a Ficus flower."

    I think the search continues...

  31. #31

    Default Re: Identity help, Please...

    These flowers are about 20mm across... all the Magnolias I've seen dwarf this by a factor of 10X+

    :-)

    No, I've not seen Ficus Flower either...


    And remember, these flowers bloom on the BOTTOM of the branch...

    PK
    Paul Kiler
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    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  32. #32

    Default Re: Identity help, Please...

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post
    I'll say no to Dogwood, because the Dogwood flowers have four petals, these have five
    Ha ha. I thought the same thing. Then I Wiki'ed it and they were saying five petals, so I thought, "Well, maybe both can be true?" I was willingly suspending my belief that nature is almost never like that --- "if something is three, it's three, dammit."
    Last edited by DrSmellThis; 24th June 2014 at 05:59 AM.

  33. #33

  34. #34

    Default Re: Identity help, Please...

    What a wonderful mystery. My initial thought was a bay tree family from the tree shape. Then frangipane because the flowers curl in. I know these are wrong because I checked.

    What would this ID site say?
    http://www.nhm.ac.uk/nature-online/b...e-key/#tree-s1
    Last edited by mumsy; 25th June 2014 at 08:56 AM.

  35. #35
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    Default Re: Identity help, Please...

    It's probably something blindingly obvious !
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  36. #36

    Default Re: Identity help, Please...

    Bay laurel is similar but the flowers differ, slightly more bunchy.

  37. #37
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    Default Re: Identity help, Please...

    Reply just received from Kew:-

    ''Dear ...

    We have had one identification for your photograph from one of our botanists as follows:

    Ternstroemia sp. from the Penthaphylacaceae family of plants

    I hope this information helps. Unfortunately, we are unable to identify down to species level from the photograph.

    Yours sincerely''

    Having looked on Google, this is uncannily similar.
    http://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/elyunq...telprdb5203591

    and this is similar.
    http://www005.upp.so-net.ne.jp/goost...O/XMOKKOKU.HTM
    Last edited by lpp; 30th June 2014 at 02:58 PM.
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  38. #38

    Default Re: Identity help, Please...

    Clever bunny. I couldn't get this at all and tried a multitude of times.

  39. #39

    Default Re: Identity help, Please...

    Nice IPP that you thought to contact Kew...I had not the slightest thought of it being in the Tea family. Even without the species being determined with certainty, the identity is now much narrowed down. The first link that you provide does look much like the original picture from Paul.

    Yes Mumsy, he's a clever one.

  40. #40

    Default Re: Identity help, Please...

    Quote Originally Posted by lpp View Post
    Reply just received from Kew:-

    LPP. I think you really found it... HOORAY!!!

    Thanks SO Very Much!

    I will forward this on to the gardens now and see what they have to say, but I think you Nailed it!

    Much Love- PK
    Paul Kiler
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    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  41. #41

    Default Re: Identity help, Please...

    I would really bet that the tree is Saintedwood, as you found LPP, THANKS!
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
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    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  42. #42
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    Default Re: Identity help, Please...

    Thanks Paul & all - it was getting to be like some kind of a brainworm or something!


    Kew have always been very helpful.

    @mumsy - I'd never have found it either...
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  43. #43

    Default Re: Identity help, Please...

    Glad to see the mystery has been solved.

  44. #44

    Default Re: Identity help, Please...

    Saintedwood, cool name! I take it that you're interested in planting one in your garden, Paul?

  45. #45

    Default Re: Identity help, Please...

    Quote Originally Posted by Pears View Post
    Saintedwood, cool name! I take it that you're interested in planting one in your garden, Paul?
    Would be lovely indeed, but I'm quite worried about my heat and lack of humidity for a plant native to tropical island Puerto Rico...???
    Then there's also the question of finding another specimen... It seems to be pretty rare.

    PK
    Paul Kiler
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  46. #46
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    Default Re: Identity help, Please...

    Would the owner be prepared to have a go at propagating some?
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  47. #47

    Default Re: Identity help, Please...

    Quote Originally Posted by lpp View Post
    Would the owner be prepared to have a go at propagating some?
    Hmmm... They Might...

    And I still need to work out a post showing their Frankincense Tree Specimens too...

    PK
    Paul Kiler
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  48. #48
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    Default Re: Identity help, Please...

    Wow - lucky you - is it a public garden or a private one?

    We can buy Frankincense trees from Europe but they cost a fortune & I don't have the facilities for them atm.
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  49. #49

    Default Re: Identity help, Please...

    It's my Community College alma mater gardens. Public. But Clearly, If I've helped them ID a plant that they haven't known what it is for several/many years, maybe I could impose for a propagation of the Saintedwood tree...?

    The Frankincense trees seem to be a personal thing for one of the guys...

    PK
    Paul Kiler
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  50. #50
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    Default Re: Identity help, Please...

    Cool

    As it's classed as 'sensitive' in it's own, native, habitat, propagation could be a very good thing...

    ooh - 1950 posts Paul...
    Last edited by lpp; 2nd July 2014 at 09:53 PM.
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  51. #51

    Default Re: Identity help, Please...

    Quote Originally Posted by lpp View Post
    it was getting to be like some kind of a brainworm
    Lol......what an expression. Totally as it was indeed. I can never rest with an unsolved mystery.

  52. #52

    Default Re: Identity help, Please...

    Wow, so glad this is solved. We could've gone on forever hunting and guessing. What a glorious tree.
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  53. #53

    Default Re: Identity help, Please...

    Very interesting!

    The wiki says that the plants are androdiodecious, a term I had obviously never heard, but which explains why the plant never bore fruits. It needs a tree with female flowers.

    Apparently, a Mexican variety (pringleri) produces a sedative substance in their fruits (a substance with the cool name jacaranone, which has so far escaped IFRA).

    In any case, it seems that the plant now requires a perfume inspired by it ...

    cacio

  54. #54

    Default Re: Identity help, Please...

    Quote Originally Posted by cacio View Post
    In any case, it seems that the plant now requires a perfume inspired by it ...

    cacio
    Yes, I was thinking that...

    PK
    Paul Kiler
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  55. #55

    Default Re: Identity help, Please...

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post
    Would be lovely indeed, but I'm quite worried about my heat and lack of humidity for a plant native to tropical island Puerto Rico...???
    Then there's also the question of finding another specimen... It seems to be pretty rare.

    PK
    I'd imagine that it could handle the heat if it's from the tropics or sub tropics but the lack of humidity and rainfall in the summer could be an issue. You could add more organic matter to the soil and apply a thick mulch on top, to help the soil to retain more moisture. Adding mycorrhizal fungi to the roots when transplanting would also make the plant considerably more drought tolerant. If it's particularly thirsty then you could bury an olla next to it. It would save you from having to water so regularly and stop the water from being wasted through drainage and evaporation. I believe that California has a mediterranean type climate, receiving heavy rain fall in the winter, so you should hopefully only need to water in the summer months. Unless you're to the east of the mountains and in the rain shadow, in which case watering all year round may be beneficial. Just a few ideas, you may already be familiar with most of them if you're a keen gardener.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGxqShoGKFI
    Last edited by Pears; 3rd July 2014 at 01:22 PM.

  56. #56

    Default Re: Identity help, Please...

    The Gardener I now have a small relationship with because of these actitivies is going to try to make a slip and see if he can grow it for me.

    Interesting about the female and male trees needed... Not fruiting is ok though. they don't seem to be very consequential... "Tiny brown, egg-shaped fruit (green when immature) is dry, two-celled with few seeds."

    The Gardener is going to take my pics back to the Huntington Gardens in Pasadena where they got the plant and ask for confirmation of Saintedwood ID.


    Thanks Pears for your thoughts, Yes, we are much more desert than Mediteranean where we are... we're not on the coast, and yes rain shadowed, but also we're in such a severe drought too, here in So Cal. Our backyard sprinklers never have worked well or properly. So I must water the trees, and esp the newly planted Tangelo tree. Mostly the backyard is dirt with a few low weeds, if not a tree or bush.


    I planted our Juniper potted Christmas tree from about 10 years ago, and it has just gotten monstrously big, and nothing grows under it. So I think I'll have to cut it down and plant other things there. But I don;'t have to water it. Maybe it gets enough water from the neighbor's waterings...?
    But I bet I'd have to water the Saintedwood. Your thoughts for an Olla are excellent, I should institute that too for the Tangelo...

    Thanks,
    PK



    Paul Kiler
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    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  57. #57
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    Default Re: Identity help, Please...

    Update - another opinion has been received:-

    Quote
    I think Cleyera japonica, in the family Pentaphylacaceae.
    All best,
    End quote

    http://www.phytoimages.siu.edu/imgs/...ica_28667.html
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  58. #58

    Default Re: Identity help, Please...

    Oh Yes, I see that similarity indeed!

    I've just passed it on. Although I did have trouble finding any pictures of more mature plants, similar in size to this tree. But certainly the flowers are very close, AND the Leaves are too. I couldn't seem to find any pics with the flowers clearly on the underside of the branches though. But granted, I only looked for a few minutes.

    There is one mention of the strong beautiful flower odor wafting down a canyon from the flowers, that is also encouraging...

    Thanks so very much LPP. And the hardiness of this plant I think could grow at my home too. YAY!, will investigate more at a nursery that is 50 miles away that says they sell it.

    :-)

    PK
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
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    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  59. #59
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    Default Re: Identity help, Please...

    Hope so, Paul - it sounds really lovely
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  60. #60

    Default Re: Identity help, Please...

    What a smashing bit of Sherlock work Ipp.

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