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  1. #31

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    Quote Originally Posted by Irina View Post
    Interesting, will look into the science behind it. My hands on experience in a lab is that scenting powders is a pain Powders are good at deodorizing, but not so good at capturing the scent, for that several additives were needed.
    I stand corrected if someone knows from experience or literature otherwise.
    Scenting powders is indeed a difficult thing to do. Because of the large surface area, everything is prone to oxidation. Many Ingredients just disappear. Not sure how effective using an inert powder would be for extractions though.

  2. #32

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    Quote Originally Posted by leathermountain View Post
    Thank you, Pears.

    To clarify:
    I meant the various powders discussed in Anya McCoy's post, not sodium bicarbonate.

    And I meant to ask something more like: "to what do we think the aroma molecules are adhering and/or in what do we think the aroma molecules are dissolving, in these powders?"

    It sounds like, if there is dissolution, it might be taking place in water that adheres to powder particles.

    Surface adhesion seems like another possibility.

    Anti-caking agents seem likely to change the picture entirely. It sounds like they create a hydrophobic layer around the powder particles. Is that right? I'm curious how that would affect the adhesion of aroma molecules.

    Also, I can imagine that you'd want your aroma molecules on the surface of the particles, and not necessarily inside them, so that the aroma molecules are released during use....
    No. The majority of Aromachemicals are not water soluble.

  3. #33

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    Quote Originally Posted by leathermountain View Post
    There is also the general problem with powder: we shouldn't inhale particulates if we can avoid it.

    But it sounds so appealing: a pretty powder that seems to have a light scent. Then, as you rub it in, or just wear it, the scent blooms.... Meanwhile, perhaps the powder helps to deodorize the wearer. And to be able to go almost directly from botanicals to that kind of product, well, it's tempting to try.
    Surely you are using the talc in the same way as you use fat in conventional enfleurage. Once the aromachemicals have been adsorbed onto talc, a more suitable solvent is used to remove those aromachemicals from the talc.

  4. #34

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    Quote Originally Posted by David Ruskin View Post
    Surely you are using the talc in the same way as you use fat in conventional enfleurage. Once the aromachemicals have been adsorbed onto talc, a more suitable solvent is used to remove those aromachemicals from the talc.
    Indeed, that was the original poster's intention, to solvent extract the powder. No doubt you'd agree that using sugars and salts wouldn't be such a good idea in such an instance, because the alcohol and the small amount of water would dissolve them, atleast in part. You might get away with using certain starches, if the alcohol was cold. Cellulose, lignin, or similar polymers would probably be more suitable, or insoluble minerals, like talc.
    Last edited by Pears; 8th July 2014 at 09:36 AM.

  5. #35

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    An inert powder such as talc, or cellulose would be the best option. There is a method for extracting fragrances from solids that uses this technique. It is called a Soxhlet extractor.

  6. #36

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    Indeed, a soxhlet would ordinarily work well for this purpose. For aroma compounds that are less heat stable, you'd need to use a more volatile solvent in the soxhlet, which would require a tighter control on the temperature, in order to control the pressure. It could certainly be done, although it's probably not one for your every day perfumer. Then again, neither are some of the extraction methods that I've mentioned in the past, but it's fun to discuss the possibilities.
    Last edited by Pears; 8th July 2014 at 03:14 PM.

  7. #37

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    Thank you David for chiming in It's fun to discuss! During my time in the lab, powders were the bane of my existance oh, how much I hated to work with them!
    You have not only the inhalation problems, but that body powders need to be very finely grinded, thus they get through every creek of the work space, clothes etc.
    The best solution was using a box that looks like a sterile glove box
    http://www.aquix.com.sg/web/products..._SN02-0002.jpg

    I still have one for powdered aromachems.
    @SomethingSmelly

  8. #38

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    Quote Originally Posted by David Ruskin View Post
    The majority of Aromachemicals are not water soluble.
    But not all, viz. floral waters. I was summarizing some of the points already made, including this one:

    Quote Originally Posted by Irina View Post
    So it's most likely you'll atract (if any) especially the water soluble volatiles...

  9. #39

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    You're both correct, ofcourse, it just depends on your perspective. We're not just talking about absorption but adsorption, which involves intermolecular forces at the surface. There's no need for the aroma compounds to become dissolved in the water for them to become adsorbed at the surface.
    Last edited by Pears; 8th July 2014 at 10:46 PM.

  10. #40

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    Quote Originally Posted by Pears View Post
    You're both correct, ofcourse, it just depends on your perspective. We're not just talking about absorption but adsorption, which involves intermolecular forces at the surface. There's no need for the aroma compounds to become dissolved in the water for them to become adsorbed at the surface.
    You're right, Pears, the adsorption is the adhesion that was mentioned before. In this case it is still a bit of a mystery to me how to achieve that with an inert powder and aromatics that are mostly chemically stable (carry no electrostatic ion charge) thus not able to form ionic bonds just by physical contact. Some redox reactions might occur though.
    But in this case one would have to look upon each molecule released by a plant in head space and calculate the possibilities.
    From the top of my head this is what actually happens when extracting the scent by using headspace technology. Adsorbent materials are also used but I would need to look up what and how. It's a speciality on its own. Anyone owning a book by Roman Kaiser?

    p.s. google books to the rescue
    http://books.google.nl/books?id=sNsA...nology&f=false
    Last edited by Irina; 9th July 2014 at 07:05 AM.
    @SomethingSmelly

  11. #41

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    I own "The Scent of Orchids" by Roman Kaiser. He describes, in not great detail, the process of Headspace analysis. He mentions an "adsorption trap" but does not describe it clearly. I gather he uses activated charcoal. The amounts of fragrance collected is minute; 1-300 micro grammes. Often two solvents are used to remove the collected samples; a non polar solvent such as Carbon Disulphide, and a polar solvent such as Ethanol.

  12. #42
    Paul Kiler
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    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    Poropak Tubes:

    Poropak Tubes

    Poropak is a polymer used for the collection of VOCs for later analysis using thermal desorption and GC analysis.

    One of these days I'll actually get to try out Kaiser's technique with something, I have two Pocket Pumps:
    http://www.skcinc.com/pumps/210-1000.asp

    PK
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  13. #43

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    The actual sampling is dead easy; I've done it myself so it must be!! The analysis is another matter.

  14. #44

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    Quote Originally Posted by Irina View Post
    You're right, Pears, the adsorption is the adhesion that was mentioned before. In this case it is still a bit of a mystery to me how to achieve that with an inert powder...
    There is some evidence that talc particles possess a negative charge on their basal planes, due to substitution of Si4+ ions with Al3+ and Ti3+ ions:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17675052

    http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct...Q-eovXWWxzrsGQ

    Quote Originally Posted by Irina View Post
    ...and aromatics that are mostly chemically stable (carry no electrostatic ion charge) thus not able to form ionic bonds just by physical contact. Some redox reactions might occur though.
    Aroma compounds without a net positive or negative charge, or permanent dipoles, can still form instantaneous dipoles. That is one of the ways in which adsorption can work. However, because it involves very weak forces, larger molecules with lower vapour pressures are generally more easily adsorbed.
    Last edited by Pears; 10th July 2014 at 04:34 PM.

  15. #45

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    Indeed David, that's what I read too: minuscule particles of activated charcoal. And some other synthetic solvents and polymers.

    Thank you, Pears, I see what you mean.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pears View Post
    However, because it involves very weak forces, larger molecules, with lower vapour pressures are more easily adsorbed.
    And this is exactly what makes me scratch my head as most volatiles in headspace of said flowers don't usually involve larger molecules with lower vapour pressure, as they are VOC's (volatile organic compounds)...
    @SomethingSmelly

  16. #46

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    Your combined chemical knowledge is a wonderful thing to see unfurling here. I am reading with utter fascination.
    Currently wearing: Beautiful by Estée Lauder

  17. #47

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    You are assuming that all Aromachemicals are non-polar; this is just not true.

  18. #48

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    Quote Originally Posted by Irina View Post
    And this is exactly what makes me scratch my head as most volatiles in headspace of said flowers don't usually involve larger molecules with lower vapour pressure, as they are VOC's (volatile organic compounds)...
    Most of the aroma compounds in flowers aren't especially volatile, although everything is relative. Their boiling points are usually towards the upper limit for VOCs (~250 °C). Flowers tend not to produce highly volatile compounds because the tiny amounts that they produce would be lost to the atmosphere too quickly. Their purpose is to produce a steady stream of particles, which insects can follow all the way back to the plant. Providing that the botanicals and a suitable sorbent are placed in an airtight container, with little in the way of headspace, then adsorption should be relatively straight forward, in theory. Stopping the aroma compounds from desorbing after the lid is removed would be another issue though. Starch is often added to soaps as a fixative and I'd be surprised if most of the other sorbents didn't have a similar effect. Although, that wouldn't be an issue if the intention was to further extract the powder with a solvent.
    Last edited by Pears; 12th July 2014 at 10:42 AM.

  19. #49

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    Quote Originally Posted by David Ruskin View Post
    You are assuming that all Aromachemicals are non-polar; this is just not true.
    Could you explain why you thought that we were only talking about non-polar aroma compounds, David? Dispersion forces occur between both polar and non-polar molecules. Although, many books will often only give non-polar molecules as an example. They are, indeed, the single best example to give but some books neglect to mention that dispersion forces can occur in addition to dipole-dipole interactions. There's a reasonable chance that it wasn't part of the syllabus when you were a student, in the 70s I'm guessing. Perhaps you were referring to something else though?
    Last edited by Pears; 11th July 2014 at 04:07 PM.

  20. #50

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    You are right Pears. As Sir Mick once opined, "What a drag it is getting old".

  21. #51

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    I know the feeling, David. Although to be fair, you can't be expected to remember every little detail, especially if your old reference books neglect to mention it. It would rarely be of much use to a perfumer, anyhow.
    Last edited by Pears; 12th July 2014 at 10:51 AM.

  22. #52

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    Quote Originally Posted by David Ruskin View Post
    You are right Pears. As Sir Mick once opined, "What a drag it is getting old".
    He's still damn dishy though... so is Keith Richards.
    Currently wearing: Beautiful by Estée Lauder

  23. #53

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    Oh mumsy, what are you like.

  24. #54

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    Currently wearing: Beautiful by Estée Lauder

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