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  1. #1

    Default Baking soda enfleurage

    Anyone that's ever baked knows how readily baking soda absorbs adjacent flavors/smells. Could this be used to in perfumery? It's also keeps things from going bad, which would stop the decay problem with traditional fat enfleurage. Once the baking soda is suitably loaded, just wash with ethyl alcohol and tada!

  2. #2

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    It doesn't dissolve in ethanol, and doesn't evaporate

    Nice lateral thinking though

  3. #3

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    That's the idea. The baking soda wouldn't dissolve in ethanol, but the captured aroma compounds would.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    I use sugar for much the same thing but for baking with flower flavours. Lavender sugar, lemon rind sugar etc etc.

    Just try it and see.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    Baking Soda is alkaline; might have some stability problems.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    A book for you...

    Vicki Lansky’s Baking Soda: Over 500 Fabulous, Fun and Frugal Uses You’ve Probably Never Thought of

  7. #7

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    Yes, I'm planning to find some unsuspecting flowers to be my test subject....

  8. #8

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    I don't know why I bother.

  9. #9

  10. #10

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    Well it doesn't hurt to try... looking forward to your observations!

  11. #11

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    Sodium bicarbonate is used to deodorize strong smells because it is amphoteric, reacting with acids and strong bases. You may get away with it but then again, you may not. It would depend on which aroma compounds that the material contained. If you were using a stronger base, like sodium hydroxide, you could certainly expect the acids, phenols and esters to be converted to mostly odourless salts. With sufficient moisture, that is.
    Last edited by Pears; 6th July 2014 at 01:24 AM.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    Putting anything into Sodium Bicarbonate will cause problems. How many more times?

  13. #13

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    I was in agreement with you, David, but your last post is a bit of an overgeneralisation. It is likely to cause problems with most natural materials because they contain a wide array of compounds and some are bound to react with the bicarbonate. Many of the reactions are likely to result in odourless salts. Esters would usually require a stronger base than sodium bicarbonate to hydrolise. The bottom line though is that we both agree that it's probably not such a good idea.

    p.s. I wish that this site would stop highlighting correct English spellings as errors. English as opposed to American English, I mean.
    Last edited by Pears; 5th July 2014 at 11:10 PM.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    Quote Originally Posted by David Ruskin View Post
    Putting anything into Sodium Bicarbonate will cause problems. How many more times?
    Patience, David, patience.
    Sometimes it's better to let the kids climb the tree and work out the dangers the hard way. Nothing like a broken leg to drive home some of life's lessons
    Last edited by Trufflehunter; 5th July 2014 at 11:20 PM.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    You might find some interesting crossover of pertinent information on this topic here:
    http://anyasgarden.com/blog/powder-e...-art-giveaway/

    PK
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  16. #16

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    Nice find, Paul. Perhaps an anti-caking agent would help with certain powders, because of the high moisture content in the flowers. Powder enfleurage may have been the inspiration for cold enfleurage, as the article states. However, I'm pretty sure that you'd agree that hot enfleurage is more likely to have been inspired by the methods of maceration, used by the ancient Egyptians and other civilizations of antiquity.
    Last edited by Pears; 6th July 2014 at 07:47 PM.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post
    You might find some interesting crossover of pertinent information on this topic here:
    http://anyasgarden.com/blog/powder-e...-art-giveaway/

    PK
    I was just thinking of that!

  18. #18

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    Quote Originally Posted by Pears View Post
    Nice find, Paul. Perhaps an anti-caking agent would help with certain powders, because of the high moisture content in the flowers. Powder enfleurage may have been the inspiration for cold enfleurage, as the article states. However, I'm pretty sure that you'd agree that hot enfleurage is more likely to have been inspired by the methods of maceration, used by the ancient Egyptians and other civilizations of antiquity.
    May I ask for some more information about anti-caking agents?

    And I'm wondering: what do we think the aroma molecules are adhering to and/or dissolving in, in these powders?

  19. #19

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    Quote Originally Posted by leathermountain View Post
    May I ask for some more information about anti-caking agents?
    Sure, leathermountain. Anti-caking agents work either by absorbing excess moisture or by coating the particles and making them more water repellent. There's some crossover between anti-caking agents, anti-adherents and lubricants because some compounds possess all three properties. Talc would be one example, which is readily available.

    Quote Originally Posted by leathermountain View Post
    And I'm wondering: what do we think the aroma molecules are adhering to and/or dissolving in, in these powders?
    It may depend on the powder that you were using. In some cases it's likely to be down to absorption, while in other cases it's more likely to be down to adsorption. The finer the powder, or the greater it's porosity, the larger it's surface area will be and therefore the greater it's adsorption capacity. It would be good to hear other members' thoughts on the matter though.
    Last edited by Pears; 7th July 2014 at 01:24 PM.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    I see 1 major problem with all powders: moisture. All the above mentioned are very hygroscopic substances (meaning they attract water from the air). Fresh plants are full of water and most peeps here won't be able to perform the enfleurage in vacuum, there, you see the problem?
    So it's most likely you'll atract (if any) especially the water soluble volatiles...
    Customized consultancy on olfactory branding, design & research
    I also offer individual online personalised advice on perfume making to anyone eager to learn how to smell and design like a pro
    www.irinatudor.nl

    Social platform & research network on all things smelly, daily smelly science twitter feed @SomethingSmelly
    www.somethingsmelly.com


    The facts on IFRA restrictions & EU regulations

  21. #21

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    Quote Originally Posted by leathermountain View Post
    And I'm wondering: what do we think the aroma molecules are adhering to and/or dissolving in, in these powders?
    p.s. I guess you mean 'why'?

    chemical answer:
    http://skeptics.stackexchange.com/qu...a-remove-odors
    Customized consultancy on olfactory branding, design & research
    I also offer individual online personalised advice on perfume making to anyone eager to learn how to smell and design like a pro
    www.irinatudor.nl

    Social platform & research network on all things smelly, daily smelly science twitter feed @SomethingSmelly
    www.somethingsmelly.com


    The facts on IFRA restrictions & EU regulations

  22. #22

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    Quote Originally Posted by Irina View Post
    I see 1 major problem with all powders: moisture. All the above mentioned are very hygroscopic substances (meaning they attract water from the air). Fresh plants are full of water and most peeps here won't be able to perform the enfleurage in vacuum, there, you see the problem?
    That's why you might wish to add an anti-caking agent. You could actually just use the anti-caking as the main powder. Talc is probably the most readily available of these. One benefit is that it's not going to promote microbial growth if it get's a little damp, unlike starch or cellulose based powders.

  23. #23

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    Quote Originally Posted by Irina View Post
    p.s. I guess you mean 'why'?

    chemical answer:
    http://skeptics.stackexchange.com/qu...a-remove-odors
    I'm not sure that leathermountain meant sodium bicarbonate in particular. In the case of the other powders mentioned, which are relatively inert, the aroma compounds are simply being absorbed or adsorbed.
    Last edited by Pears; 7th July 2014 at 04:26 PM.

  24. #24

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    Quote Originally Posted by Pears View Post
    That's why you might wish to add an anti-caking agent. You could actually just use the anti-caking as the main powder. Talc is probably the most readily available of these. One benefit is that it's not going to promote microbial growth if it get's a little damp, unlike starch or cellulose based powders.
    Hm, when working in a lab, I learned that talc itself is quite hygroscopic but now I looked it up in the literature and found this:
    http://aurigene.com/wp-content/uploa...n-analysis.pdf

    Talc is indeed non-hygroscopic!
    Customized consultancy on olfactory branding, design & research
    I also offer individual online personalised advice on perfume making to anyone eager to learn how to smell and design like a pro
    www.irinatudor.nl

    Social platform & research network on all things smelly, daily smelly science twitter feed @SomethingSmelly
    www.somethingsmelly.com


    The facts on IFRA restrictions & EU regulations

  25. #25

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    Quote Originally Posted by Pears View Post
    I'm not sure that leathermountain meant sodium bicarbonate in particular. In the case of the other powders mentioned, which are relatively inert, the aroma compounds are simply being absorbed or adsorbed.
    Interesting, will look into the science behind it. My hands on experience in a lab is that scenting powders is a pain Powders are good at deodorizing, but not so good at capturing the scent, for that several additives were needed.
    I stand corrected if someone knows from experience or literature otherwise.
    Customized consultancy on olfactory branding, design & research
    I also offer individual online personalised advice on perfume making to anyone eager to learn how to smell and design like a pro
    www.irinatudor.nl

    Social platform & research network on all things smelly, daily smelly science twitter feed @SomethingSmelly
    www.somethingsmelly.com


    The facts on IFRA restrictions & EU regulations

  26. #26

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    Quote Originally Posted by Pears View Post
    Sure, leathermountain. Anti-caking agents work either by absorbing excess moisture or by coating the particles and making them more water repellent. There's some crossover between anti-caking agents, anti-adherents and lubricants because some compounds possess all three properties. Talc would be one example, which is readily available.



    It may depend on the powder that you were using. In some cases it's likely to be down to absorption, while in other cases it's more likely to be down to adsorption. The finer the powder, or the greater it's porosity, the larger it's surface area will be and therefore the greater it's adsorption capacity. It would be good to hear other members' thoughts on the matter though.
    Thank you, Pears.

    To clarify:
    I meant the various powders discussed in Anya McCoy's post, not sodium bicarbonate.

    And I meant to ask something more like: "to what do we think the aroma molecules are adhering and/or in what do we think the aroma molecules are dissolving, in these powders?"

    It sounds like, if there is dissolution, it might be taking place in water that adheres to powder particles.

    Surface adhesion seems like another possibility.

    Anti-caking agents seem likely to change the picture entirely. It sounds like they create a hydrophobic layer around the powder particles. Is that right? I'm curious how that would affect the adhesion of aroma molecules.

    Also, I can imagine that you'd want your aroma molecules on the surface of the particles, and not necessarily inside them, so that the aroma molecules are released during use....

  27. #27

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    Yes, I'm too inclined to believe it's about physical adhesion rather than chemical. As Pears rightly pointed out, talc is inert (meaning the chance that it reacts with other chemicals is slight) so I'm not sure about the hydrophobic layer and even so, sheer friction and/or warmth of skin/fingers should release the aromatics.
    But as I said before: try scenting talc as a DIY project, it's not an easy task.
    Customized consultancy on olfactory branding, design & research
    I also offer individual online personalised advice on perfume making to anyone eager to learn how to smell and design like a pro
    www.irinatudor.nl

    Social platform & research network on all things smelly, daily smelly science twitter feed @SomethingSmelly
    www.somethingsmelly.com


    The facts on IFRA restrictions & EU regulations

  28. #28

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    Quote Originally Posted by leathermountain View Post
    Thank you, Pears.

    To clarify:
    I meant the various powders discussed in Anya McCoy's post, not sodium bicarbonate.

    And I meant to ask something more like: "to what do we think the aroma molecules are adhering and/or in what do we think the aroma molecules are dissolving, in these powders?"
    Starch based powders will absorb water and polar aroma compounds to varying degrees. Non-polar compounds may become absorbed to a limited degree but they would be more likely to adsorb via van der Waals forces, remaining on the surface of the particles. The surface would, ofcourse, include any pores or fissures. Talc is practically insoluble in almost every solvent that you would care to think of, with the exception of dilute mineral acids. It's also composed of smooth platelets, rather than having a porous structure, so the aroma compounds would only be adsorbed on the outermost surface.

    Quote Originally Posted by leathermountain View Post
    Anti-caking agents seem likely to change the picture entirely. It sounds like they create a hydrophobic layer around the powder particles. Is that right? I'm curious how that would affect the adhesion of aroma molecules.
    Yes, some do. They don't entirely block water from getting through, but they can slow down the rate of absorption and will often act as glidants, even if the main ingredient has absorbed moisture. However, even starch can act as a glidant, which ofcourse, absorbs moisture.

    Quote Originally Posted by leathermountain View Post
    Also, I can imagine that you'd want your aroma molecules on the surface of the particles, and not necessarily inside them, so that the aroma molecules are released during use....
    I was thinking the same thing myself, but it would require experimenting to know for sure. I can't say that I've ever used powders for the purpose of enfleurage before. As Irina mentioned, there may be some practical issues to overcome.
    Last edited by Pears; 7th July 2014 at 08:11 PM.

  29. #29

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    There is also the general problem with powder: we shouldn't inhale particulates if we can avoid it.

    But it sounds so appealing: a pretty powder that seems to have a light scent. Then, as you rub it in, or just wear it, the scent blooms.... Meanwhile, perhaps the powder helps to deodorize the wearer. And to be able to go almost directly from botanicals to that kind of product, well, it's tempting to try.

  30. #30

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    Good point. The inhalation of excess talc can lead to Pulmonary talcosis and Talc pneumoconiosis. In general, try to avoid inhaling all powders but especially those high in crystalline minerals containing silicon. Starches can atleast be broken down by the enzymes and alveolar macrophages, found in the lungs.
    Last edited by Pears; 8th July 2014 at 07:55 AM.

  31. #31

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    Quote Originally Posted by Irina View Post
    Interesting, will look into the science behind it. My hands on experience in a lab is that scenting powders is a pain Powders are good at deodorizing, but not so good at capturing the scent, for that several additives were needed.
    I stand corrected if someone knows from experience or literature otherwise.
    Scenting powders is indeed a difficult thing to do. Because of the large surface area, everything is prone to oxidation. Many Ingredients just disappear. Not sure how effective using an inert powder would be for extractions though.

  32. #32

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    Quote Originally Posted by leathermountain View Post
    Thank you, Pears.

    To clarify:
    I meant the various powders discussed in Anya McCoy's post, not sodium bicarbonate.

    And I meant to ask something more like: "to what do we think the aroma molecules are adhering and/or in what do we think the aroma molecules are dissolving, in these powders?"

    It sounds like, if there is dissolution, it might be taking place in water that adheres to powder particles.

    Surface adhesion seems like another possibility.

    Anti-caking agents seem likely to change the picture entirely. It sounds like they create a hydrophobic layer around the powder particles. Is that right? I'm curious how that would affect the adhesion of aroma molecules.

    Also, I can imagine that you'd want your aroma molecules on the surface of the particles, and not necessarily inside them, so that the aroma molecules are released during use....
    No. The majority of Aromachemicals are not water soluble.

  33. #33

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    Quote Originally Posted by leathermountain View Post
    There is also the general problem with powder: we shouldn't inhale particulates if we can avoid it.

    But it sounds so appealing: a pretty powder that seems to have a light scent. Then, as you rub it in, or just wear it, the scent blooms.... Meanwhile, perhaps the powder helps to deodorize the wearer. And to be able to go almost directly from botanicals to that kind of product, well, it's tempting to try.
    Surely you are using the talc in the same way as you use fat in conventional enfleurage. Once the aromachemicals have been adsorbed onto talc, a more suitable solvent is used to remove those aromachemicals from the talc.

  34. #34

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    Quote Originally Posted by David Ruskin View Post
    Surely you are using the talc in the same way as you use fat in conventional enfleurage. Once the aromachemicals have been adsorbed onto talc, a more suitable solvent is used to remove those aromachemicals from the talc.
    Indeed, that was the original poster's intention, to solvent extract the powder. No doubt you'd agree that using sugars and salts wouldn't be such a good idea in such an instance, because the alcohol and the small amount of water would dissolve them, atleast in part. You might get away with using certain starches, if the alcohol was cold. Cellulose, lignin, or similar polymers would probably be more suitable, or insoluble minerals, like talc.
    Last edited by Pears; 8th July 2014 at 09:36 AM.

  35. #35

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    An inert powder such as talc, or cellulose would be the best option. There is a method for extracting fragrances from solids that uses this technique. It is called a Soxhlet extractor.

  36. #36

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    Indeed, a soxhlet would ordinarily work well for this purpose. For aroma compounds that are less heat stable, you'd need to use a more volatile solvent in the soxhlet, which would require a tighter control on the temperature, in order to control the pressure. It could certainly be done, although it's probably not one for your every day perfumer. Then again, neither are some of the extraction methods that I've mentioned in the past, but it's fun to discuss the possibilities.
    Last edited by Pears; 8th July 2014 at 03:14 PM.

  37. #37

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    Thank you David for chiming in It's fun to discuss! During my time in the lab, powders were the bane of my existance oh, how much I hated to work with them!
    You have not only the inhalation problems, but that body powders need to be very finely grinded, thus they get through every creek of the work space, clothes etc.
    The best solution was using a box that looks like a sterile glove box
    http://www.aquix.com.sg/web/products..._SN02-0002.jpg

    I still have one for powdered aromachems.
    Customized consultancy on olfactory branding, design & research
    I also offer individual online personalised advice on perfume making to anyone eager to learn how to smell and design like a pro
    www.irinatudor.nl

    Social platform & research network on all things smelly, daily smelly science twitter feed @SomethingSmelly
    www.somethingsmelly.com


    The facts on IFRA restrictions & EU regulations

  38. #38

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    Quote Originally Posted by David Ruskin View Post
    The majority of Aromachemicals are not water soluble.
    But not all, viz. floral waters. I was summarizing some of the points already made, including this one:

    Quote Originally Posted by Irina View Post
    So it's most likely you'll atract (if any) especially the water soluble volatiles...

  39. #39

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    You're both correct, ofcourse, it just depends on your perspective. We're not just talking about absorption but adsorption, which involves intermolecular forces at the surface. There's no need for the aroma compounds to become dissolved in the water for them to become adsorbed at the surface.
    Last edited by Pears; 8th July 2014 at 10:46 PM.

  40. #40

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    Quote Originally Posted by Pears View Post
    You're both correct, ofcourse, it just depends on your perspective. We're not just talking about absorption but adsorption, which involves intermolecular forces at the surface. There's no need for the aroma compounds to become dissolved in the water for them to become adsorbed at the surface.
    You're right, Pears, the adsorption is the adhesion that was mentioned before. In this case it is still a bit of a mystery to me how to achieve that with an inert powder and aromatics that are mostly chemically stable (carry no electrostatic ion charge) thus not able to form ionic bonds just by physical contact. Some redox reactions might occur though.
    But in this case one would have to look upon each molecule released by a plant in head space and calculate the possibilities.
    From the top of my head this is what actually happens when extracting the scent by using headspace technology. Adsorbent materials are also used but I would need to look up what and how. It's a speciality on its own. Anyone owning a book by Roman Kaiser?

    p.s. google books to the rescue
    http://books.google.nl/books?id=sNsA...nology&f=false
    Last edited by Irina; 9th July 2014 at 07:05 AM.
    Customized consultancy on olfactory branding, design & research
    I also offer individual online personalised advice on perfume making to anyone eager to learn how to smell and design like a pro
    www.irinatudor.nl

    Social platform & research network on all things smelly, daily smelly science twitter feed @SomethingSmelly
    www.somethingsmelly.com


    The facts on IFRA restrictions & EU regulations

  41. #41

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    I own "The Scent of Orchids" by Roman Kaiser. He describes, in not great detail, the process of Headspace analysis. He mentions an "adsorption trap" but does not describe it clearly. I gather he uses activated charcoal. The amounts of fragrance collected is minute; 1-300 micro grammes. Often two solvents are used to remove the collected samples; a non polar solvent such as Carbon Disulphide, and a polar solvent such as Ethanol.

  42. #42

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    Poropak Tubes:

    Poropak Tubes

    Poropak is a polymer used for the collection of VOCs for later analysis using thermal desorption and GC analysis.

    One of these days I'll actually get to try out Kaiser's technique with something, I have two Pocket Pumps:
    http://www.skcinc.com/pumps/210-1000.asp

    PK
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  43. #43

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    The actual sampling is dead easy; I've done it myself so it must be!! The analysis is another matter.

  44. #44

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    Quote Originally Posted by Irina View Post
    You're right, Pears, the adsorption is the adhesion that was mentioned before. In this case it is still a bit of a mystery to me how to achieve that with an inert powder...
    There is some evidence that talc particles possess a negative charge on their basal planes, due to substitution of Si4+ ions with Al3+ and Ti3+ ions:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17675052

    http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct...Q-eovXWWxzrsGQ

    Quote Originally Posted by Irina View Post
    ...and aromatics that are mostly chemically stable (carry no electrostatic ion charge) thus not able to form ionic bonds just by physical contact. Some redox reactions might occur though.
    Aroma compounds without a net positive or negative charge, or permanent dipoles, can still form instantaneous dipoles. That is one of the ways in which adsorption can work. However, because it involves very weak forces, larger molecules with lower vapour pressures are generally more easily adsorbed.
    Last edited by Pears; 10th July 2014 at 04:34 PM.

  45. #45

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    Indeed David, that's what I read too: minuscule particles of activated charcoal. And some other synthetic solvents and polymers.

    Thank you, Pears, I see what you mean.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pears View Post
    However, because it involves very weak forces, larger molecules, with lower vapour pressures are more easily adsorbed.
    And this is exactly what makes me scratch my head as most volatiles in headspace of said flowers don't usually involve larger molecules with lower vapour pressure, as they are VOC's (volatile organic compounds)...
    Customized consultancy on olfactory branding, design & research
    I also offer individual online personalised advice on perfume making to anyone eager to learn how to smell and design like a pro
    www.irinatudor.nl

    Social platform & research network on all things smelly, daily smelly science twitter feed @SomethingSmelly
    www.somethingsmelly.com


    The facts on IFRA restrictions & EU regulations

  46. #46

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    Your combined chemical knowledge is a wonderful thing to see unfurling here. I am reading with utter fascination.

  47. #47

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    You are assuming that all Aromachemicals are non-polar; this is just not true.

  48. #48

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    Quote Originally Posted by Irina View Post
    And this is exactly what makes me scratch my head as most volatiles in headspace of said flowers don't usually involve larger molecules with lower vapour pressure, as they are VOC's (volatile organic compounds)...
    Most of the aroma compounds in flowers aren't especially volatile, although everything is relative. Their boiling points are usually towards the upper limit for VOCs (~250 C). Flowers tend not to produce highly volatile compounds because the tiny amounts that they produce would be lost to the atmosphere too quickly. Their purpose is to produce a steady stream of particles, which insects can follow all the way back to the plant. Providing that the botanicals and a suitable sorbent are placed in an airtight container, with little in the way of headspace, then adsorption should be relatively straight forward, in theory. Stopping the aroma compounds from desorbing after the lid is removed would be another issue though. Starch is often added to soaps as a fixative and I'd be surprised if most of the other sorbents didn't have a similar effect. Although, that wouldn't be an issue if the intention was to further extract the powder with a solvent.
    Last edited by Pears; 12th July 2014 at 10:42 AM.

  49. #49

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    Quote Originally Posted by David Ruskin View Post
    You are assuming that all Aromachemicals are non-polar; this is just not true.
    Could you explain why you thought that we were only talking about non-polar aroma compounds, David? Dispersion forces occur between both polar and non-polar molecules. Although, many books will often only give non-polar molecules as an example. They are, indeed, the single best example to give but some books neglect to mention that dispersion forces can occur in addition to dipole-dipole interactions. There's a reasonable chance that it wasn't part of the syllabus when you were a student, in the 70s I'm guessing. Perhaps you were referring to something else though?
    Last edited by Pears; 11th July 2014 at 04:07 PM.

  50. #50

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    You are right Pears. As Sir Mick once opined, "What a drag it is getting old".

  51. #51

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    I know the feeling, David. Although to be fair, you can't be expected to remember every little detail, especially if your old reference books neglect to mention it. It would rarely be of much use to a perfumer, anyhow.
    Last edited by Pears; 12th July 2014 at 10:51 AM.

  52. #52

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    Quote Originally Posted by David Ruskin View Post
    You are right Pears. As Sir Mick once opined, "What a drag it is getting old".
    He's still damn dishy though... so is Keith Richards.

  53. #53

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    Oh mumsy, what are you like.

  54. #54

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage


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