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  1. #1

    Default Baking soda enfleurage

    Anyone that's ever baked knows how readily baking soda absorbs adjacent flavors/smells. Could this be used to in perfumery? It's also keeps things from going bad, which would stop the decay problem with traditional fat enfleurage. Once the baking soda is suitably loaded, just wash with ethyl alcohol and tada!

  2. #2
    Basenotes Plus
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    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    It doesn't dissolve in ethanol, and doesn't evaporate

    Nice lateral thinking though

  3. #3

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    That's the idea. The baking soda wouldn't dissolve in ethanol, but the captured aroma compounds would.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    I use sugar for much the same thing but for baking with flower flavours. Lavender sugar, lemon rind sugar etc etc.

    Just try it and see.
    Currently wearing: Montecristo by Masque

  5. #5

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    Baking Soda is alkaline; might have some stability problems.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    A book for you...

    Vicki Lansky’s Baking Soda: Over 500 Fabulous, Fun and Frugal Uses You’ve Probably Never Thought of
    Currently wearing: Montecristo by Masque

  7. #7

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    Yes, I'm planning to find some unsuspecting flowers to be my test subject....

  8. #8

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    I don't know why I bother.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    Lol.....
    Currently wearing: Montecristo by Masque

  10. #10

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    Well it doesn't hurt to try... looking forward to your observations!

  11. #11

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    Sodium bicarbonate is used to deodorize strong smells because it is amphoteric, reacting with acids and strong bases. You may get away with it but then again, you may not. It would depend on which aroma compounds that the material contained. If you were using a stronger base, like sodium hydroxide, you could certainly expect the acids, phenols and esters to be converted to mostly odourless salts. With sufficient moisture, that is.
    Last edited by Pears; 6th July 2014 at 01:24 AM.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    Putting anything into Sodium Bicarbonate will cause problems. How many more times?

  13. #13

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    I was in agreement with you, David, but your last post is a bit of an overgeneralisation. It is likely to cause problems with most natural materials because they contain a wide array of compounds and some are bound to react with the bicarbonate. Many of the reactions are likely to result in odourless salts. Esters would usually require a stronger base than sodium bicarbonate to hydrolise. The bottom line though is that we both agree that it's probably not such a good idea.

    p.s. I wish that this site would stop highlighting correct English spellings as errors. English as opposed to American English, I mean.
    Last edited by Pears; 5th July 2014 at 11:10 PM.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    Quote Originally Posted by David Ruskin View Post
    Putting anything into Sodium Bicarbonate will cause problems. How many more times?
    Patience, David, patience.
    Sometimes it's better to let the kids climb the tree and work out the dangers the hard way. Nothing like a broken leg to drive home some of life's lessons
    Last edited by Trufflehunter; 5th July 2014 at 11:20 PM.

  15. #15
    Paul Kiler
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    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    You might find some interesting crossover of pertinent information on this topic here:
    http://anyasgarden.com/blog/powder-e...-art-giveaway/

    PK
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  16. #16

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    Nice find, Paul. Perhaps an anti-caking agent would help with certain powders, because of the high moisture content in the flowers. Powder enfleurage may have been the inspiration for cold enfleurage, as the article states. However, I'm pretty sure that you'd agree that hot enfleurage is more likely to have been inspired by the methods of maceration, used by the ancient Egyptians and other civilizations of antiquity.
    Last edited by Pears; 6th July 2014 at 07:47 PM.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post
    You might find some interesting crossover of pertinent information on this topic here:
    http://anyasgarden.com/blog/powder-e...-art-giveaway/

    PK
    I was just thinking of that!
    Currently wearing: Holy Thistle by Union

  18. #18

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    Quote Originally Posted by Pears View Post
    Nice find, Paul. Perhaps an anti-caking agent would help with certain powders, because of the high moisture content in the flowers. Powder enfleurage may have been the inspiration for cold enfleurage, as the article states. However, I'm pretty sure that you'd agree that hot enfleurage is more likely to have been inspired by the methods of maceration, used by the ancient Egyptians and other civilizations of antiquity.
    May I ask for some more information about anti-caking agents?

    And I'm wondering: what do we think the aroma molecules are adhering to and/or dissolving in, in these powders?
    Currently wearing: Holy Thistle by Union

  19. #19

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    Quote Originally Posted by leathermountain View Post
    May I ask for some more information about anti-caking agents?
    Sure, leathermountain. Anti-caking agents work either by absorbing excess moisture or by coating the particles and making them more water repellent. There's some crossover between anti-caking agents, anti-adherents and lubricants because some compounds possess all three properties. Talc would be one example, which is readily available.

    Quote Originally Posted by leathermountain View Post
    And I'm wondering: what do we think the aroma molecules are adhering to and/or dissolving in, in these powders?
    It may depend on the powder that you were using. In some cases it's likely to be down to absorption, while in other cases it's more likely to be down to adsorption. The finer the powder, or the greater it's porosity, the larger it's surface area will be and therefore the greater it's adsorption capacity. It would be good to hear other members' thoughts on the matter though.
    Last edited by Pears; 7th July 2014 at 01:24 PM.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    I see 1 major problem with all powders: moisture. All the above mentioned are very hygroscopic substances (meaning they attract water from the air). Fresh plants are full of water and most peeps here won't be able to perform the enfleurage in vacuum, there, you see the problem?
    So it's most likely you'll atract (if any) especially the water soluble volatiles...
    @SomethingSmelly

  21. #21

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    Quote Originally Posted by leathermountain View Post
    And I'm wondering: what do we think the aroma molecules are adhering to and/or dissolving in, in these powders?
    p.s. I guess you mean 'why'?

    chemical answer:
    http://skeptics.stackexchange.com/qu...a-remove-odors
    @SomethingSmelly

  22. #22

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    Quote Originally Posted by Irina View Post
    I see 1 major problem with all powders: moisture. All the above mentioned are very hygroscopic substances (meaning they attract water from the air). Fresh plants are full of water and most peeps here won't be able to perform the enfleurage in vacuum, there, you see the problem?
    That's why you might wish to add an anti-caking agent. You could actually just use the anti-caking as the main powder. Talc is probably the most readily available of these. One benefit is that it's not going to promote microbial growth if it get's a little damp, unlike starch or cellulose based powders.

  23. #23

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    Quote Originally Posted by Irina View Post
    p.s. I guess you mean 'why'?

    chemical answer:
    http://skeptics.stackexchange.com/qu...a-remove-odors
    I'm not sure that leathermountain meant sodium bicarbonate in particular. In the case of the other powders mentioned, which are relatively inert, the aroma compounds are simply being absorbed or adsorbed.
    Last edited by Pears; 7th July 2014 at 04:26 PM.

  24. #24

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    Quote Originally Posted by Pears View Post
    That's why you might wish to add an anti-caking agent. You could actually just use the anti-caking as the main powder. Talc is probably the most readily available of these. One benefit is that it's not going to promote microbial growth if it get's a little damp, unlike starch or cellulose based powders.
    Hm, when working in a lab, I learned that talc itself is quite hygroscopic but now I looked it up in the literature and found this:
    http://aurigene.com/wp-content/uploa...n-analysis.pdf

    Talc is indeed non-hygroscopic!
    @SomethingSmelly

  25. #25

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    Quote Originally Posted by Pears View Post
    I'm not sure that leathermountain meant sodium bicarbonate in particular. In the case of the other powders mentioned, which are relatively inert, the aroma compounds are simply being absorbed or adsorbed.
    Interesting, will look into the science behind it. My hands on experience in a lab is that scenting powders is a pain Powders are good at deodorizing, but not so good at capturing the scent, for that several additives were needed.
    I stand corrected if someone knows from experience or literature otherwise.
    @SomethingSmelly

  26. #26

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    Quote Originally Posted by Pears View Post
    Sure, leathermountain. Anti-caking agents work either by absorbing excess moisture or by coating the particles and making them more water repellent. There's some crossover between anti-caking agents, anti-adherents and lubricants because some compounds possess all three properties. Talc would be one example, which is readily available.



    It may depend on the powder that you were using. In some cases it's likely to be down to absorption, while in other cases it's more likely to be down to adsorption. The finer the powder, or the greater it's porosity, the larger it's surface area will be and therefore the greater it's adsorption capacity. It would be good to hear other members' thoughts on the matter though.
    Thank you, Pears.

    To clarify:
    I meant the various powders discussed in Anya McCoy's post, not sodium bicarbonate.

    And I meant to ask something more like: "to what do we think the aroma molecules are adhering and/or in what do we think the aroma molecules are dissolving, in these powders?"

    It sounds like, if there is dissolution, it might be taking place in water that adheres to powder particles.

    Surface adhesion seems like another possibility.

    Anti-caking agents seem likely to change the picture entirely. It sounds like they create a hydrophobic layer around the powder particles. Is that right? I'm curious how that would affect the adhesion of aroma molecules.

    Also, I can imagine that you'd want your aroma molecules on the surface of the particles, and not necessarily inside them, so that the aroma molecules are released during use....
    Currently wearing: Holy Thistle by Union

  27. #27

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    Yes, I'm too inclined to believe it's about physical adhesion rather than chemical. As Pears rightly pointed out, talc is inert (meaning the chance that it reacts with other chemicals is slight) so I'm not sure about the hydrophobic layer and even so, sheer friction and/or warmth of skin/fingers should release the aromatics.
    But as I said before: try scenting talc as a DIY project, it's not an easy task.
    @SomethingSmelly

  28. #28

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    Quote Originally Posted by leathermountain View Post
    Thank you, Pears.

    To clarify:
    I meant the various powders discussed in Anya McCoy's post, not sodium bicarbonate.

    And I meant to ask something more like: "to what do we think the aroma molecules are adhering and/or in what do we think the aroma molecules are dissolving, in these powders?"
    Starch based powders will absorb water and polar aroma compounds to varying degrees. Non-polar compounds may become absorbed to a limited degree but they would be more likely to adsorb via van der Waals forces, remaining on the surface of the particles. The surface would, ofcourse, include any pores or fissures. Talc is practically insoluble in almost every solvent that you would care to think of, with the exception of dilute mineral acids. It's also composed of smooth platelets, rather than having a porous structure, so the aroma compounds would only be adsorbed on the outermost surface.

    Quote Originally Posted by leathermountain View Post
    Anti-caking agents seem likely to change the picture entirely. It sounds like they create a hydrophobic layer around the powder particles. Is that right? I'm curious how that would affect the adhesion of aroma molecules.
    Yes, some do. They don't entirely block water from getting through, but they can slow down the rate of absorption and will often act as glidants, even if the main ingredient has absorbed moisture. However, even starch can act as a glidant, which ofcourse, absorbs moisture.

    Quote Originally Posted by leathermountain View Post
    Also, I can imagine that you'd want your aroma molecules on the surface of the particles, and not necessarily inside them, so that the aroma molecules are released during use....
    I was thinking the same thing myself, but it would require experimenting to know for sure. I can't say that I've ever used powders for the purpose of enfleurage before. As Irina mentioned, there may be some practical issues to overcome.
    Last edited by Pears; 7th July 2014 at 08:11 PM.

  29. #29

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    There is also the general problem with powder: we shouldn't inhale particulates if we can avoid it.

    But it sounds so appealing: a pretty powder that seems to have a light scent. Then, as you rub it in, or just wear it, the scent blooms.... Meanwhile, perhaps the powder helps to deodorize the wearer. And to be able to go almost directly from botanicals to that kind of product, well, it's tempting to try.
    Currently wearing: Holy Thistle by Union

  30. #30

    Default Re: Baking soda enfleurage

    Good point. The inhalation of excess talc can lead to Pulmonary talcosis and Talc pneumoconiosis. In general, try to avoid inhaling all powders but especially those high in crystalline minerals containing silicon. Starches can atleast be broken down by the enzymes and alveolar macrophages, found in the lungs.
    Last edited by Pears; 8th July 2014 at 07:55 AM.

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