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  1. #91

    Default Re: What smells say Thailand to you?

    Only my method and others may do things differently. There is no right and wrong.

    Normally - I would make any material as fine as I could. In the case of resinous things. Then I would shake it three times daily for at least three months. Then I would just leave it until it has settled. Between three months and a year, smelling it periodically to take it off the material when it smells right to me. Then I would filter, freeze and filter again. Then mature for as long as it took till It smells perfect. In the case of ambergris, some of mine are three + years old now and getting better and better. That is of course an extreme example.

    This one - Used the pre-prepared coconut solid oil at 20% to ethanol. Shook it daily for eight days. Left it to settle and pulled it straight off the thicker oil. Froze it to filter it. Then ran into the issue that is documented here. Pretty much on the timeframe as per the dates. Live forum style.

    It isn't an issue I have encountered before. I am not content to use an ethanol with coconut oil still in it. I want it pure just because I can. I have re-filtered it three times now and it still shows evidence of solids in a cold environment. The latest version today is cooling the papers and the bottle and filtering it actually inside the fridge. I have had the ethanol thus filtered sitting right at the back for an hour now and so far so good. If it shows any more solids then I will do it again and again until it doesn't. I never like a good challenge to get the better of me.
    Currently wearing: Civet by Houbigant

  2. #92

    Default Re: What smells say Thailand to you?

    Thanks Mumsy...I suppose it wasn't all as "self evident" to me as I originally thought it would be. I much appreciate your taking the time to explain all the details as you have to an extraction naive individual as myself.

    After posting the questions that I did, it came to me that waiting whatever time for separation to take place, and then to wait a while longer to where I observe no more separation would probably be the answer to those inquiries of mine regarding wait times after separations. Sorry to only have such a conclusion come to me after writing my last post, and to put you through all of that, but I am sure there will be others besides only myself who will benefit greatly from your thorough explanation. Also, it will save you time in the writing of your future book on the extraction of aromatics in the kitchen, as you can just copy/paste your reply above for the appropriate section of the book.

    I think that like your current extraction process, I will as well shorten the sitting intervals so as to have a final result rather a good deal sooner than a year from now. Thanks again for all.

  3. #93

    Default Re: What smells say Thailand to you?

    Documenting and adding to a thread actually sorts out ones own mind as well, so it works two ways. I am still filtering these again as they again showed signs of solids when frozen again. I was so convinced it had worked this time. Now they are on the coldest part of the fridge yet again and getting cold enough to do it again at the back this time.

    The next issue is fun too. Removing chlorophyll from plant tinctures without using hexane. Fullers earth and activated charcoal are currently on comparison for effectiveness. Chemistry fun and games with the kids.
    Currently wearing: Civet by Houbigant

  4. #94

    Default Re: What smells say Thailand to you?



    Here is an approximate diagram of what the perfume has become (ish). I have been trying very hard to attempt a real interpretation of the authentic Thai wedding perfume traditionally meant to bless the bride on her wedding day. She will not have her family with her except on skype so I feel a pull to try to replicate what her family would do for her if they were here. Obviously I haven't had some of the authentic ingredients like pandanus leaf, so I have read loads of descriptions online to try and make the smell as an accord of how I interpret those descriptions.

    It is a quite spicy, incensy and jasmine heavy fat floral (but they take a side seat not a front one). The woods and coconut are supportive and I hope no ingredient is going to take over. I need to wait. There are a couple of heavy boots who like to dominate blends such as galbanum, nutmeg and vanilla (part of the pandanus accord), so I hope I have kept them in check by making them small hints. We will see.

    I do feel that the perfume as a whole is a bit light and might need a sole nailed on the bottom to anchor it but at the same time I feel a Thai perfume would be light and airy. I haven't addressed that until it develops further.

    (Virgate became black pepper)
    Currently wearing: Civet by Houbigant

  5. #95

    Default Re: What smells say Thailand to you?

    Mumsy, is it the massoia oil that is providing the wood note, or do you have other ingredients that are as well adding to the wood aspect? (I'm going under the assumption that the Galbanum and Nutmeg are not "woody", I may be wrong on that).

  6. #96

    Default Re: What smells say Thailand to you?

    This depiction is much easier to read than formulae! (For me at least). Now I realize why I'm coming up with mud in my own attempts. Too many ingredients with the same relative impact!

  7. #97

    Default Re: What smells say Thailand to you?

    Sandalwood amyris is the woody note, with coconut and vanilla. That accounts for the lack of weight. I wanted to see what it did before deciding what to put under it.

    It's smelling very 'clean' and I suspect the blue lotus for that. I'm never sure about that flower. It adds a laundry cleaner aspect pushing any fragrance I've used it in towards a loo freshener. The tiny amount of nutmeg is shoving its way forwards to get out. It is a monster.....

    So top notes are bergamot, shaded by lime, nuanced by lemongrass
    Middle notes are jasmine, rose, frangipane, ylang, a nuance of blue lotus, shaded from too floral by an incense accord of frankincense and Myrrh with a nuance of nutmeg and saffron, a smaller green accord of galbanum, basil and coriander
    Base notes are sandalwood amyris, coconut and vanilla tincture (not sweet), toned with black pepper

    It's going to need a proper bottom yet and a juggle of quantities but the feel is right-ish. I'm debating a chilli aspect and to change the ylang to kewra to be nearer pandanus.
    Currently wearing: Civet by Houbigant

  8. #98

    Default Re: What smells say Thailand to you?

    Hmm.. A crazy idea - what does a trace of Patchouli do? Or Guaiacwood?

  9. #99
    Paul Kiler
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    Default Re: What smells say Thailand to you?

    I couldn't read the pic, it was so small, so I blew it up to read it...

    Thai Perfume by Mumsy.jpg
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  10. #100

    Default Re: What smells say Thailand to you?

    The perfume has melded a bit and is nice but moving away from a Thai theme for the moment The grassy edges are softening into a more gentle floral. The nutmeg has submitted to the blend but one naughty eye is still peeking. A nice scent but not exotic or Thai enough to my nose. It still has time to change again. Next mod to come. More green and less incense. More coconut and less flowers. I love this game. It is like painting in smell but the colours change on their own and the perfumers secret is knowing and predicting whether they will or not.

    Does the diagram make sense to you? That one is a really rough one to explain my thoughts. I have been doing many, many drawings of perfumes to see if there was any correlation to form and aroma. It is of course hard to achieve this information without accurate data of which not much is available. It is why I am always after GC analysis of real perfumes, just to make a drawing from to see where it fits in to my theory. Fascinating so far but no conclusions yet.
    Currently wearing: Civet by Houbigant

  11. #101

    Default Re: What smells say Thailand to you?

    Having no personal experience with Amyris, can you describe the benefit of using that over Sandalwood for the woody aspect (aside from cost consideration)? Also, what form, variety, etc. of Frankincense have you used? I am only curious about these things for the sake of my own knowledge, unfortunately, I don't believe there is anything I could suggest to help make the project any better than you already know how to.

    I find your comments about the Blue Lotus having things "fresher", "cleaner" interesting to hear in the description of the effects of a floral absolute/extract. Lavender may be the only other floral where I hear such a connection in effect. You have it sounding like sort of Lemon/White Musk (ambrettolide?), though I doubt the scent of blue lotus quite tends in that direction (another material I have no experience with)...has me think I need to acquire some of that for the sake of understanding that one. I've created many a formulation that could have benefited from a "freshening up" (without using Iso-Eugenol Super), so I am curious about that. The cost has always prevented me from ordering that particular material, but with the degree of action that you suggest, it sounds to be a bargain actually. that is, within the context of certain applications.

  12. #102

    Default Re: What smells say Thailand to you?

    Quote Originally Posted by mumsy View Post
    There are a couple of heavy boots who like to dominate blends such as galbanum, nutmeg and vanilla (part of the pandanus accord), so I hope I have kept them in check by making them small hints.
    Your comment here illustrates an earlier comment I made about natural perfumery months back... Something I have come to accept is that, in terms of the naturals in my perfumes -- the weight I'd like to give various notes has to take a back seat to the dictates of the oils themselves, just as it did in the case of nutmeg with you (I also find nutmeg quite difficult in an all natural setting -- It's great with way more synthetics, and is used quite freely with synthetics -- because the whole point is to add some outrageous complexity, as a minor part of the accord. I don't think it's as easy to use aggressively in a natural perfume.).

    Vanilla is the same way. In no way do I put in as much vanilla as I want to in my imagination of a creamy note. Because there is that well known thing that happens when you OD vanilla... Instead, it's, "where does the vanilla abs play nice with the sandalwood EO?" Unfortunately, you can't get that much of a vanilla note before you start having side effects from the abs.

    And right now I have a perfume where I want the rose note to be stronger than carnation, for example. But I am actually dosing the carnation concrete or absolute higher, because of the nature of the materials themselves (distinct from the abstract notes) as they affect the perfume. Now since I have sold my soul to the devil and am using aromachemicals too, I can still make the rose note stronger, even though the rose abs is less than the carnation abs. In this setting, though I want a rose note, the rose abs itself is just too dominating in the middle register. Yet I could practically overdose phenyl ethyl alcohol (rosewater smell for newbies, actually a nature identical single chemical) and get away with it.

    So what I am saying, I guess, is that if I was working with all naturals on the present project (and I actually could make up this current perfume as all natural, without any isolates whatsoever, as the naturals accord is more or less complete unto itself) I would just be able to hint at my idea, which on the level of imagination, was more about rose. (And no, I can't make up for it with geranium in this case, as that would dominate the top too much.)

    At all times, I feel with naturals much more of the experience is about submitting and yielding to nature -- whatever nature will let me do, or ask me to do. So I guess it's a meditation in that aspect. Hence the Japanese gardens metaphor, which is about expressing a relationship between humans and nature.

    Hope your new perfume turns out great. Sounds good to me so far.
    Last edited by DrSmellThis; 12th August 2014 at 08:18 AM.

  13. #103

    Default Re: What smells say Thailand to you?

    Quite a few questions there. Amyris was chosen over mysore and spicatum because it is of a more 'sappy' nature and hopefully will accent the green accord. The Frankincense was the most incensy balsamic one I had over the other four that are more citrus inclined. The blue lotus is definitely inclined towards the lavender side of laundry ozonic non floral clean rather than citrus or flowers.

    As for freshening up, then aldehydes are to be found in nature. The coriander leaf as David suggested and in cinnamon bark. Useful but IFRA hit list worthy. Plus the mint family and camphorous pines. Lots of soaring notes around. Easier to muddy up though.

    Then the deceptively mighty ones. Some are so persistent at showing right through a blend, that I keep them at 1% and some at 0.1% for when only a hint is needed. Galbanum, nutmeg, vanilla, saffron, cinnamon, tonka... just to name a few.

    Vanilla tincture behaves very beautifully with sandalwood. The abs is very powerfully invasive and sweeter. I keep the abs at 0.1.

    My bride will like whatever I do, even mud, but I want it to be just right.
    Currently wearing: Civet by Houbigant

  14. #104

    Default Re: What smells say Thailand to you?

    Found this today:-

    In the old time, before the King Rama IV brought essential oils from abroad. Fragrance has been one of the major elements of Thai traditions such as dipping a new baby in scented water called โกนผมไฟ kon pom fai, pouring water mixed with a Thai fragrance over statues of Buddha at the Songkran festival and at Thai funerals.

    There are many types of Thai fragrances, for example; น้ำอบ nam ob, น้ำปรุง nam prung, ดินสอพอง din saw pong etc. of which the most popular is Nam ob. This was a traditional cosmetic first discovered in the Sukhothai kingdom continuing to the Ayutthaya kingdom and Rattanakosin kingdom. The fact that King Rama II liked to use nam oop and nam prung very much demonstrates how important it was in Thai fragrance and cosmetics at that time because it became a popular trend from the royal family to the citizens.

    “Nam ob” น้ำอบ is the name of a liquid fragrance which is made from a fresh scented flowers such as jasmine, orange, bread flower etc. then roasted with fragrant candles (made from citrus bark, frankincense, brown sugar, beeswax and nutmeg). The result of this process is a light yellow liquid. This process does not give much quantity of Nam ob because Thai people only make it for their own family from day to day. If they left the perfume more than one day, the scent of flower might change.

    Nowadays, the younger Thai generation don’t usually use Nam ob Thai as everyday perfume but only use it in important traditions such as wedding ceremony, Songkran festival, and Thai funerals. Therefore, Nam ob Thai has an important place in the identity of Thai culture.


    Taken from learningthaiwithmod.com

    And another here

    “Nam Prung” which it is produced by the combination of Thai fragrant woods. Furthermore, these woods are easily found in local area and they can also create more various products. Its combination of the perfume is Thai rose, fragrant pandan and michelia longifolia Bl. These woods are extracted by Alcohol and mixed with herbs and fragrance.

    michelia longifolia = white champaka

    Thai bread flower is Vallari glabra, supposed to smell musty and sweet like the pandanus
    Currently wearing: Civet by Houbigant

  15. #105

    Default Re: What smells say Thailand to you?

    I thought that Pandan can't be extracted with alcohol.. At least that's what I read in one of the papers discussing its ingredients.

  16. #106

    Default Re: What smells say Thailand to you?

    Nizan, I believe that Mumsy is referring to the leaves of the Pandanus plant (I hope she will correct me if I am mistaken)...the reference that you read about alcohol extraction, I assume, was regarding extraction of the flowers (kewda or kewra).

    Mumsy, Thanks for all of the details that you have provided in answer to my (possibly excessive) questions. I'll keep this one short. I was hoping to know the identity of the type of Frankincense that you used. If you might know which one, ie. species, Carterii/Sacra, Fereana, Serrata, I'd be grateful. And if not, I will still be grateful. Thanks in advance.
    Last edited by islearom; 12th August 2014 at 01:24 PM.

  17. #107

    Default Re: What smells say Thailand to you?

    I quoted that from a translation. I think some erroneous nuances can be overlooked when translating Thai because the language sometimes means two different things when taken out of context.

    I got the Frankincense EO from a company called Holistic Therapy and although it doesn't say, it is most likely to be Carterii because this is the type normally used in aromatherapy.
    Currently wearing: Civet by Houbigant

  18. #108

    Default Re: What smells say Thailand to you?

    As with anything... ended up rushing this a bit at the end otherwise it won't have any time to mellow. The nutmeg is still being naughty but I shall have to perfect it afterwards. This gift is as ready as it's going to get.





    Two perfumes because I couldn't make up my mind.

    Nam Ob Thai and Nam Prung Thai, made as near as I can to the traditional format as far as I understood it.
    Now wait and see if she likes them... fingers crossed.

    A big thank you to everyone who has helped on this thread. It has been a fabulously interesting project. I will make up what she needs (and offer the rest to those who have contributed on this thread and wish to have a test whiff of the result. PM me if you do.)
    Currently wearing: Civet by Houbigant

  19. #109

    Default Re: What smells say Thailand to you?

    A very nice presentation your photos show. I trust that the bride and groom will much appreciate all of your efforts.

  20. #110

    Default Re: What smells say Thailand to you?

    Shrimp paste. It's normally heated in the wok with a little oil before the other ingredients are added. It's a really funky smell but it transports me to those odoriferous restaurants in Bankok. A better method of cooking it, if you don't want to smell up the whole house, is to wrap it in tin foil while you heat it in the wok and then unwrap it at the end and combine it with the other ingredients.

  21. #111

    Default Re: What smells say Thailand to you?

    Quote Originally Posted by mumsy View Post
    As with anything... ended up rushing this a bit at the end otherwise it won't have any time to mellow. The nutmeg is still being naughty but I shall have to perfect it afterwards. This gift is as ready as it's going to get.





    Two perfumes because I couldn't make up my mind.

    Nam Ob Thai and Nam Prung Thai, made as near as I can to the traditional format as far as I understood it.
    Now wait and see if she likes them... fingers crossed.

    A big thank you to everyone who has helped on this thread. It has been a fabulously interesting project. I will make up what she needs (and offer the rest to those who have contributed on this thread and wish to have a test whiff of the result. PM me if you do.)
    That looks brilliant, Mumsy, I hope they'll be appreciated
    @SomethingSmelly

  22. #112
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    Default Re: What smells say Thailand to you?

    Mumsy, I'd be interested to know what you did in the end with this? I'm attempting something similar for my sister for Christmas. She told me she wanted 'thai green curry and lots of sandalwood'...

    My first attempt was so powerful on the coconut and lemongrass that to me at least it felt like a bit too much of what I wanted - more curry than perfume. I'm on version 2, and so far, I've got a lily accord with ylang ylang, jasmine and a touch of gamma octalone, then lemongrass, basil, ginger and lime, bergamot, methyl laitone, hedione, aldehyde supra and linalool, and finally sandalwood, exaltone, vertofix and vanillin.

    Any thoughts on your wedding experience would be gratefully received. I'm finding this one tough to get the right balance for. There's gourmand, and then there's leftover takeaway....

  23. #113
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    Default Re: What smells say Thailand to you?

    Quote Originally Posted by FollyFlick View Post
    Mumsy, I'd be interested to know what you did in the end with this? I'm attempting something similar for my sister for Christmas. She told me she wanted 'thai green curry and lots of sandalwood'...

    My first attempt was so powerful on the coconut and lemongrass that to me at least it felt like a bit too much of what I wanted - more curry than perfume. I'm on version 2, and so far, I've got a lily accord with ylang ylang, jasmine and a touch of gamma octalone, then lemongrass, basil, ginger and lime, bergamot, methyl laitone, hedione, aldehyde supra and linalool, and finally sandalwood, exaltone, vertofix and vanillin.

    Any thoughts on your wedding experience would be gratefully received. I'm finding this one tough to get the right balance for. There's gourmand, and then there's leftover takeaway....
    Sorry - just posted this, and it took me to the second page that I hadn't previously realised was there!! Doh!!

  24. #114

    Default Re: What smells say Thailand to you?

    No worries. I will give you the whole formula when I unearth it. I'm just on full family Chrissie present production mode at the mo, so not on here so much.

    PS. I have some left and you can smell it. Coffee and goss time. Lol.
    Currently wearing: Civet by Houbigant

  25. #115
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    Default Re: What smells say Thailand to you?

    Sounds fab. Coffee and gossip is always a good combo. No hassle about the formula. I've decided to work on a back up option for her of something a bit safer and easier, so she has something to unwrap that doesn't smell like flower vase water, and I'll work on her thai brief when I'm feeling brave!

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