It smells almost like the real dessert.
Thread: What smells say Thailand to you?
It smells almost like the real dessert.
***My favourite from my collection***
-------- Amouage Tribute Attar
------ Serge Lutens: Ambre Sultan
-------- Les Exclusifs de Chanel: Sycamore
------ Amouage: Fate Man
-------- Amouage: Epic Man
------ Tom Ford Private Blend: Noir de Noir
-------- Terre D'Hermès Pure Parfum
------ EDP FM: Carnal Flower
-------- Neela Vermire Creations: Trayee
------ Dior: Leather Oud
------- Hermèssence: Ambre Narguilé
Alpinia officinarum syn. Languas officinarum.
Glad to hear that you have the correct variety, considering all the time and effort you have invested in the project.
A stunning coconut tincture is ready now. Really gentle and elegant. It came from the most pure concentrate and hasn't been left too long to go off. Very happy with this ingredient. The massoia oil is completely off the IFRA scale of a big fat no no. Shame is it has a really nice green woody side to it. No matter.... Big pink sticker goes on that bottle. Slowly all my bottles are getting these stuck all over them.
Last edited by mumsy; 6th August 2014 at 10:36 AM.
Pink sticker means YES! ?
What is so problematic with Massoia? Since it's a bespoke project, couldn't you use it, assuming your client it ok with it?
Mumsy, is your Cocounut tincture something that you created entirely from scratch, or, derived from a commercially available material? I am wondering since a U.S. vendor (Eden) is now offering a coconut SCO2 that they suggest actually provides the fragrance of coconut, and is very reasonably priced. I have long desired to have a coconut note for something I have been thinking of trying, and this is the first time that I have heard anything about a coconut note with source of natural origin.
Glad to hear that your project is going well.
Pink sticker means warning. I don't have to heed it for a hobby but it's good to know. I don't need to use Massoia if I can have a good alternative that is ok with IFRA. I'm just obeying this time (maybe) because I'm inflicting these as a wedding gift.
The coconut oil I've used is very pure solid oil from Essence of Eden. Some friends of my OH make it. it is 100% organic with a GB organic certification of 5 and won the soil association organic food awards in 2009, 2011 and 2013. These sort of things are important to me but not essential to others. I only wanted a light inference rather than a full-on tincture so I only left it to tincture for a short while. Just enough to give my base ethanol the feel of coconut rather than swamping it. It is indeed delightful.
Tinctured for only 8 days, then separated from the heavy oil, left it to mature on its own a bit. I shall freeze it now and take any remaining residue from it, then use it as a controlled and measured diluent.
Read about the companies ethics here.
Amazon do it here.
Last edited by mumsy; 6th August 2014 at 11:12 AM.
Thanks Mumsy for the details and links. That your friends are preparing the oil without cold pressing, and without heat, has under the impression that it is derived either by SCO2 extraction, or (other) solvent extraction (ie. as an absolute, or prior stage). Any idea on how they extract the material from the coconut?
High powered centrifuges.
Geez, I never would have guessed that one, mainly as I was until now entirely unaware of such a method for extraction. Thanks again!
Well here is another thing. I didn't expect the ethanol to be able to freeze as well. it must be very bound to the coconut oil that can. I separated out all the obviously viscous layer.
No solids left when it melted again. Interesting. May freeze some ethanol on its own. Didn't think high % alcohol froze.....
Last edited by mumsy; 6th August 2014 at 03:41 PM.
Ethanol freezes at -114 deg C, so I don't think that a is just frozen alcohol.
It must have bound itself very strongly to the oil. Not that it matters much for this particular purpose but it wouldn't do for proper use. It is as clear as a bell now. I just didn't expect that to happen and need to freeze the ethanol as a control to make sure that isn't the fault. I expected any coconut oils to separate and fall with the lower temp. Maybe it was too cold too fast. I'll try the fridge.
edit. I just picked it up to look and there is an oilier layer below that just swirled. I think the problem is that it is all clear and I cannot see. A drop of a coloured matter might fix that but might not. It is the first time I have tried this method using someone else's product to begin with.
edit. I put some green kaffir lime in it. Just enough to colour it. Gone back in the freezer for a shorter time unless I forget.
That was quick. This is being an epic fail.... (on the extra separation, not the smell)
Last edited by mumsy; 6th August 2014 at 06:37 PM.
Maybe not, mumsy!
My last enfleurage looked exactly like that (while washing the pommade in ethanol in order to get the extrait), and I could manage to eventually separate them. Maybe it really got too cold too fast, but nevermind, as long as ethanol is not frozen (and sure it's not) you can filter it with some good lab paper filters, and squeeze the fat, squeeze it as much as you can, you might be surprised of how much ethanol you get back.
I'm hoping this fine line that is just about visible is the division of the laden ethanol and the unladen ethanol. It isn't quite as straightforward as enfleurage fat because this is liquid at room temperature and even cooler. Not squeezable. I shall try the fridge in a moment. This is live forum activity here.... lol
That's weird, coconut oil usually solidifies below 15°C, maybe this centrifuged oil behaves differently, so definitely no way squeezing it!
But still the line is visible from the picture.. do try the fridge avoiding shaking it too much, curious to see what happens, lol
Been in fridge for nearly an hour and the line is more visible but not solidified yet. Have moved it to the back where it is colder. This is a new one on me....
Oh and just to reiterate that I've already taken the ethanol off the obvious coconut oil. This is the second take because the whole thing froze indicating it had to still be present in a dilute form throughout. This thicker base oil must be an ethanol/coconut oil halfbreed. I'm hoping the top lot will be more pure. It has to be.
Some fall out from being in the fridge..... this will need patience. Leaving it overnight to see what happens. As soon as I bring it out to photograph, all the little settled bits jump up as they warm up.... lol
Last edited by mumsy; 6th August 2014 at 10:39 PM.
Well Mumsy, I picked up some Coconut Oil yesterday, selected by way of going from link to link originating from the one that you provided, and found one under the brand name of Nutiva at the local Vitamin store that was recommended in a review for its' strong aroma. Though as it turns out, the product has gone through a number of incarnations since the marketing of the reviewed item that I read about, and what I ended up with is a cold pressed material, but which does have a good strong aroma of coconuts.
Now seeing that the extraction part is a bit more complicated than you (and myself) had originally desired, I am hoping that you do manage to figure out a method for creating an ethanol (or even a fixed oil) soluble extract that can be carried out at home, and without the need for solvents that involve any more risk than ethanol does.
Not to be dumping this chore on you, my problem certainly is not yours (just of a similar nature I think)...but I figure I best follow your lead, as I do not have the experience that you do with at home extraction/tincturing sort of activity. Best I've done in this regard is alcohol tinctures of Vanilla Beans (doing very well so far, will give them more time), and an attempt at a Hojary Frankincense exudation infusion, which has great odor, but I have yet to figure out how to clear the solution. Filtering through coffee paper filter did not much more than remove the chunks of water soluble gum. Its still looking like milk though. Tried cooling, but no separation. Oh well...looking forward to trying to do something with the Coconut, as it smells wonderful. And as a safety net, I've ordered some of the SCO2 Coconut from Eden to see what that's about.
If anyone has any ideas on how to clear an alcohol infusion of Frankincense, I would be most grateful. But back to topic...
So I look forward to hearing of your results, and then will follow your lead.
You know better than I on this Paul...I only cooled the mixture, did not actually wait long enough to freeze it, thinking (in error apparently) that the cooling would be adequate for separation. I will give it a go again but allow it to freeze this time. Thanks much for the tip Paul.
Well, it likely won't freeze solid, the alcohol, but the solids will, that's the point, and if you freeze your filter paper and funnel too, then quickly take it all out and filter, this will removes solid waxes... freeze overnight...
Well Paul, now I feel a bit silly, as, since writing the above, I pulled out the bottle of Frankincense tincture, which since having been filtered, (about a couple of weeks or so now), has been left undisturbed, and I see that now it has separated into two layers, the top one almost entirely clear. Seems that the trick in this case was just to leave the thing alone....I had been shaking it every day or so, until I strained it, and then put it aside. Obviously I didn't look at it prior to my mention of it in my post.
Its' still in a colored bottle, though looks quite clear in the dropper. After moving the top layer to another bottle and having a better look at it, I will see if it should need the extra step of freezing. Thanks again for the advice.
Patience seems rewarded finally. The matter seems to have settled by leaving it in the fridge for longer but not so cold the whole lot solidifies. Just enough to make the coconut oil solidify but still be able to fall down. I will take only a safe margin off and use the rest for soap. The oils will benefit a soap.
With all tinctures. The true secret after lots of the shaking is lots of leaving alone. I am being far too impatient on this project because I don't have the luxury of endless time with an impending wedding. If I had been doing this properly, then I would have left it on the coconut oil for way longer.
My frankincenses have always separated themselves eventually. It is the stickiness and the shiny snail trail usually that is an issue with resin tinctures. Time left alone is really their friend.
Mumsy, please pardon me if you have already covered this detail elsewhere in this thread, but can you provide for me the ratio of Coconut Oil to Alcohol that you used? Also, any special mixing/blending method or requirements that I should know before I take the leap. All else (now) appears to be self evident. Thanks much.
Patience finally rewarded. Not perfect as I am rushing it now but it will have to do because I need to blend it this weekend.
I used a 20% weight ratio of coconut oil to ethanol and have only ended up with the small amount here. That is fine for this particular project as there are 60 guests of which approximately half will be women so I only need to make 30 mls or so of finished perfume plus a bit for having fun with. I've decided it will be improbable that any chap around here will wear this particular perfume if the bride likes the blue lotus in it.
Last edited by mumsy; 8th August 2014 at 07:58 PM.
Thanks Mumsy, I will be giving it a try. You mention having tinctured it for eight days prior to initial separation (though would have let that process go longer if you were not working within a tight time frame). Do I shake it once a day? Would shaking more often be helpful or just a waste of effort at the worst? And I think lastly, how many hours or days do I leave it stand to settle prior to initial separation, and then after that initial separation, how long would you recommend letting it stand again, undisturbed, prior to freezing? You mention having let it stand for "a bit"....I'm having a hard time in finding the conversion for "a bit" units to hours.
I would love to be able to do this right on the first attempt.
Only my method and others may do things differently. There is no right and wrong.
Normally - I would make any material as fine as I could. In the case of resinous things. Then I would shake it three times daily for at least three months. Then I would just leave it until it has settled. Between three months and a year, smelling it periodically to take it off the material when it smells right to me. Then I would filter, freeze and filter again. Then mature for as long as it took till It smells perfect. In the case of ambergris, some of mine are three + years old now and getting better and better. That is of course an extreme example.
This one - Used the pre-prepared coconut solid oil at 20% to ethanol. Shook it daily for eight days. Left it to settle and pulled it straight off the thicker oil. Froze it to filter it. Then ran into the issue that is documented here. Pretty much on the timeframe as per the dates. Live forum style.
It isn't an issue I have encountered before. I am not content to use an ethanol with coconut oil still in it. I want it pure just because I can. I have re-filtered it three times now and it still shows evidence of solids in a cold environment. The latest version today is cooling the papers and the bottle and filtering it actually inside the fridge. I have had the ethanol thus filtered sitting right at the back for an hour now and so far so good. If it shows any more solids then I will do it again and again until it doesn't. I never like a good challenge to get the better of me.
Thanks Mumsy...I suppose it wasn't all as "self evident" to me as I originally thought it would be. I much appreciate your taking the time to explain all the details as you have to an extraction naive individual as myself.
After posting the questions that I did, it came to me that waiting whatever time for separation to take place, and then to wait a while longer to where I observe no more separation would probably be the answer to those inquiries of mine regarding wait times after separations. Sorry to only have such a conclusion come to me after writing my last post, and to put you through all of that, but I am sure there will be others besides only myself who will benefit greatly from your thorough explanation. Also, it will save you time in the writing of your future book on the extraction of aromatics in the kitchen, as you can just copy/paste your reply above for the appropriate section of the book.
I think that like your current extraction process, I will as well shorten the sitting intervals so as to have a final result rather a good deal sooner than a year from now. Thanks again for all.
Documenting and adding to a thread actually sorts out ones own mind as well, so it works two ways. I am still filtering these again as they again showed signs of solids when frozen again. I was so convinced it had worked this time. Now they are on the coldest part of the fridge yet again and getting cold enough to do it again at the back this time.
The next issue is fun too. Removing chlorophyll from plant tinctures without using hexane. Fullers earth and activated charcoal are currently on comparison for effectiveness. Chemistry fun and games with the kids.
Here is an approximate diagram of what the perfume has become (ish). I have been trying very hard to attempt a real interpretation of the authentic Thai wedding perfume traditionally meant to bless the bride on her wedding day. She will not have her family with her except on skype so I feel a pull to try to replicate what her family would do for her if they were here. Obviously I haven't had some of the authentic ingredients like pandanus leaf, so I have read loads of descriptions online to try and make the smell as an accord of how I interpret those descriptions.
It is a quite spicy, incensy and jasmine heavy fat floral (but they take a side seat not a front one). The woods and coconut are supportive and I hope no ingredient is going to take over. I need to wait. There are a couple of heavy boots who like to dominate blends such as galbanum, nutmeg and vanilla (part of the pandanus accord), so I hope I have kept them in check by making them small hints. We will see.
I do feel that the perfume as a whole is a bit light and might need a sole nailed on the bottom to anchor it but at the same time I feel a Thai perfume would be light and airy. I haven't addressed that until it develops further.
(Virgate became black pepper)
Last edited by mumsy; 11th August 2014 at 09:27 AM.
Mumsy, is it the massoia oil that is providing the wood note, or do you have other ingredients that are as well adding to the wood aspect? (I'm going under the assumption that the Galbanum and Nutmeg are not "woody", I may be wrong on that).
This depiction is much easier to read than formulae! (For me at least). Now I realize why I'm coming up with mud in my own attempts. Too many ingredients with the same relative impact!
Sandalwood amyris is the woody note, with coconut and vanilla. That accounts for the lack of weight. I wanted to see what it did before deciding what to put under it.
It's smelling very 'clean' and I suspect the blue lotus for that. I'm never sure about that flower. It adds a laundry cleaner aspect pushing any fragrance I've used it in towards a loo freshener. The tiny amount of nutmeg is shoving its way forwards to get out. It is a monster.....
So top notes are bergamot, shaded by lime, nuanced by lemongrass
Middle notes are jasmine, rose, frangipane, ylang, a nuance of blue lotus, shaded from too floral by an incense accord of frankincense and Myrrh with a nuance of nutmeg and saffron, a smaller green accord of galbanum, basil and coriander
Base notes are sandalwood amyris, coconut and vanilla tincture (not sweet), toned with black pepper
It's going to need a proper bottom yet and a juggle of quantities but the feel is right-ish. I'm debating a chilli aspect and to change the ylang to kewra to be nearer pandanus.
Hmm.. A crazy idea - what does a trace of Patchouli do? Or Guaiacwood?
The perfume has melded a bit and is nice but moving away from a Thai theme for the moment The grassy edges are softening into a more gentle floral. The nutmeg has submitted to the blend but one naughty eye is still peeking. A nice scent but not exotic or Thai enough to my nose. It still has time to change again. Next mod to come. More green and less incense. More coconut and less flowers. I love this game. It is like painting in smell but the colours change on their own and the perfumers secret is knowing and predicting whether they will or not.
Does the diagram make sense to you? That one is a really rough one to explain my thoughts. I have been doing many, many drawings of perfumes to see if there was any correlation to form and aroma. It is of course hard to achieve this information without accurate data of which not much is available. It is why I am always after GC analysis of real perfumes, just to make a drawing from to see where it fits in to my theory. Fascinating so far but no conclusions yet.
Having no personal experience with Amyris, can you describe the benefit of using that over Sandalwood for the woody aspect (aside from cost consideration)? Also, what form, variety, etc. of Frankincense have you used? I am only curious about these things for the sake of my own knowledge, unfortunately, I don't believe there is anything I could suggest to help make the project any better than you already know how to.
I find your comments about the Blue Lotus having things "fresher", "cleaner" interesting to hear in the description of the effects of a floral absolute/extract. Lavender may be the only other floral where I hear such a connection in effect. You have it sounding like sort of Lemon/White Musk (ambrettolide?), though I doubt the scent of blue lotus quite tends in that direction (another material I have no experience with)...has me think I need to acquire some of that for the sake of understanding that one. I've created many a formulation that could have benefited from a "freshening up" (without using Iso-Eugenol Super), so I am curious about that. The cost has always prevented me from ordering that particular material, but with the degree of action that you suggest, it sounds to be a bargain actually. that is, within the context of certain applications.
Vanilla is the same way. In no way do I put in as much vanilla as I want to in my imagination of a creamy note. Because there is that well known thing that happens when you OD vanilla... Instead, it's, "where does the vanilla abs play nice with the sandalwood EO?" Unfortunately, you can't get that much of a vanilla note before you start having side effects from the abs.
And right now I have a perfume where I want the rose note to be stronger than carnation, for example. But I am actually dosing the carnation concrete or absolute higher, because of the nature of the materials themselves (distinct from the abstract notes) as they affect the perfume. Now since I have sold my soul to the devil and am using aromachemicals too, I can still make the rose note stronger, even though the rose abs is less than the carnation abs. In this setting, though I want a rose note, the rose abs itself is just too dominating in the middle register. Yet I could practically overdose phenyl ethyl alcohol (rosewater smell for newbies, actually a nature identical single chemical) and get away with it.
So what I am saying, I guess, is that if I was working with all naturals on the present project (and I actually could make up this current perfume as all natural, without any isolates whatsoever, as the naturals accord is more or less complete unto itself) I would just be able to hint at my idea, which on the level of imagination, was more about rose. (And no, I can't make up for it with geranium in this case, as that would dominate the top too much.)
At all times, I feel with naturals much more of the experience is about submitting and yielding to nature -- whatever nature will let me do, or ask me to do. So I guess it's a meditation in that aspect. Hence the Japanese gardens metaphor, which is about expressing a relationship between humans and nature.
Hope your new perfume turns out great. Sounds good to me so far.
Last edited by DrSmellThis; 12th August 2014 at 08:18 AM.
Quite a few questions there. Amyris was chosen over mysore and spicatum because it is of a more 'sappy' nature and hopefully will accent the green accord. The Frankincense was the most incensy balsamic one I had over the other four that are more citrus inclined. The blue lotus is definitely inclined towards the lavender side of laundry ozonic non floral clean rather than citrus or flowers.
As for freshening up, then aldehydes are to be found in nature. The coriander leaf as David suggested and in cinnamon bark. Useful but IFRA hit list worthy. Plus the mint family and camphorous pines. Lots of soaring notes around. Easier to muddy up though.
Then the deceptively mighty ones. Some are so persistent at showing right through a blend, that I keep them at 1% and some at 0.1% for when only a hint is needed. Galbanum, nutmeg, vanilla, saffron, cinnamon, tonka... just to name a few.
Vanilla tincture behaves very beautifully with sandalwood. The abs is very powerfully invasive and sweeter. I keep the abs at 0.1.
My bride will like whatever I do, even mud, but I want it to be just right.
Found this today:-
In the old time, before the King Rama IV brought essential oils from abroad. Fragrance has been one of the major elements of Thai traditions such as dipping a new baby in scented water called โกนผมไฟ kon pom fai, pouring water mixed with a Thai fragrance over statues of Buddha at the Songkran festival and at Thai funerals.
There are many types of Thai fragrances, for example; น้ำอบ nam ob, น้ำปรุง nam prung, ดินสอพอง din saw pong etc. of which the most popular is Nam ob. This was a traditional cosmetic first discovered in the Sukhothai kingdom continuing to the Ayutthaya kingdom and Rattanakosin kingdom. The fact that King Rama II liked to use nam oop and nam prung very much demonstrates how important it was in Thai fragrance and cosmetics at that time because it became a popular trend from the royal family to the citizens.
“Nam ob” น้ำอบ is the name of a liquid fragrance which is made from a fresh scented flowers such as jasmine, orange, bread flower etc. then roasted with fragrant candles (made from citrus bark, frankincense, brown sugar, beeswax and nutmeg). The result of this process is a light yellow liquid. This process does not give much quantity of Nam ob because Thai people only make it for their own family from day to day. If they left the perfume more than one day, the scent of flower might change.
Nowadays, the younger Thai generation don’t usually use Nam ob Thai as everyday perfume but only use it in important traditions such as wedding ceremony, Songkran festival, and Thai funerals. Therefore, Nam ob Thai has an important place in the identity of Thai culture.
Taken from learningthaiwithmod.com
And another here
“Nam Prung” which it is produced by the combination of Thai fragrant woods. Furthermore, these woods are easily found in local area and they can also create more various products. Its combination of the perfume is Thai rose, fragrant pandan and michelia longifolia Bl. These woods are extracted by Alcohol and mixed with herbs and fragrance.
michelia longifolia = white champaka
Thai bread flower is Vallari glabra, supposed to smell musty and sweet like the pandanus
Last edited by mumsy; 12th August 2014 at 12:49 PM.
I thought that Pandan can't be extracted with alcohol.. At least that's what I read in one of the papers discussing its ingredients.
Nizan, I believe that Mumsy is referring to the leaves of the Pandanus plant (I hope she will correct me if I am mistaken)...the reference that you read about alcohol extraction, I assume, was regarding extraction of the flowers (kewda or kewra).
Mumsy, Thanks for all of the details that you have provided in answer to my (possibly excessive) questions. I'll keep this one short. I was hoping to know the identity of the type of Frankincense that you used. If you might know which one, ie. species, Carterii/Sacra, Fereana, Serrata, I'd be grateful. And if not, I will still be grateful. Thanks in advance.
Last edited by islearom; 12th August 2014 at 01:24 PM.
I quoted that from a translation. I think some erroneous nuances can be overlooked when translating Thai because the language sometimes means two different things when taken out of context.
I got the Frankincense EO from a company called Holistic Therapy and although it doesn't say, it is most likely to be Carterii because this is the type normally used in aromatherapy.
As with anything... ended up rushing this a bit at the end otherwise it won't have any time to mellow. The nutmeg is still being naughty but I shall have to perfect it afterwards. This gift is as ready as it's going to get.
Two perfumes because I couldn't make up my mind.
Nam Ob Thai and Nam Prung Thai, made as near as I can to the traditional format as far as I understood it.
Now wait and see if she likes them... fingers crossed.
A big thank you to everyone who has helped on this thread. It has been a fabulously interesting project. I will make up what she needs (and offer the rest to those who have contributed on this thread and wish to have a test whiff of the result. PM me if you do.)
Last edited by mumsy; 13th August 2014 at 11:35 AM.
A very nice presentation your photos show. I trust that the bride and groom will much appreciate all of your efforts.
Shrimp paste. It's normally heated in the wok with a little oil before the other ingredients are added. It's a really funky smell but it transports me to those odoriferous restaurants in Bankok. A better method of cooking it, if you don't want to smell up the whole house, is to wrap it in tin foil while you heat it in the wok and then unwrap it at the end and combine it with the other ingredients.
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