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  1. #1

    Question Ethanol + Hedione + Iso E ? Where to start...?

    Hi all,

    I'm very new to this and my head is just SPINNING as far as wondering how much of a carrier agent to use when making a perfume. What proportions? What to do? Basically, I'm thinking pure ethanol, which I know is actually ~95% and then ~5% water. I'd also like to use Hedione and Iso E, but I am not sure if they would be compatible together, if they comprise the carrier agent or are part of the "perfume" itself, and how much of each I should use. Furthermore, how much of the ethanol/hed/isoE mix should I use in tandem with the perfume oils themselves?

    Do I start with an oil formula, then work my way backwards with the Hedione and Iso E, then dilute with Ethanol? Is it possible to start with a "base" mixture of all three or will the proportions be different for each composition of perfume I make? How does this all go? Aaah, I'm so sorry this is such a novice problem, but I'm absolutely perplexed as to where to start! Please let me know if this ought to be posted somewhere else, if you can help, or where I can find some helpful information if at all possible! Thank you so much!!!

    Ashler
    I'm young, impressionable, reckless, passionate. In short, a perfect student for the art of Perfume. You talk, I'll listen, we'll sniff. Let's take some risks together.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Ethanol + Hedione + Iso E ? Where to start...?

    Start with the sticky threads, read through them, get to know your materials, experiment
    This current thread is relevant to your question albeit for different reasons.
    http://www.basenotes.net/threads/384...roma-chemicals

    If you use the search function there is a thread(s) pertaining to DIY "molecule one" that might be of some help
    Justin E. Beasley

  3. #3
    Super Member Wood and Tobacco's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ethanol + Hedione + Iso E ? Where to start...?

    Hi Ashler. It depends what you're trying to make. Hedione and Iso E surely go together, assuming you want the fragrance to have both of those components. They are both fairly mild, but add a nice element to a finished product.

    If you like the smell of those then I recommend making a 10 or 20% solution of each, then combining them in different proportions to see what ratio smells best. Then add a 3rd and 4th element.. it takes a lot of work but eventually you'll have an accord that smells good.

    Once you have 5 or 6 good accords (2 top notes, 1 or 2 middles, 2 bases), you can combine those in different ratios until you get something you're happy with. It takes a lot of fine-tuning though! In the end a finished fragrance generally has between 30 and 50 ingredients, though it's possible to put together something passable with less than 30.

    Molecule 1.. don't get me started on that Justin :P

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Ethanol + Hedione + Iso E ? Where to start...?

    Hedione can be used successfully in anywhere from 1% to 35% of the perfume Concentrate, maybe even more in a few instances.
    Same thing for Iso E Super.

    The % is dependent upon your taste, needs, and what else is in the blend.

    But you *could* do this:
    Hedione 20%
    Iso E Super 20%
    other stuff mixed together 60%

    Use that alcohol, good choice.

    Start with 20% perfume concentrate, and 80% alcohol 190 proof mixture. If too strong, bring the dilution down to maybe 15%.

    Have FUN!

    PK
    Paul Kiler
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    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  5. #5

    Default Re: Ethanol + Hedione + Iso E ? Where to start...?

    In some fragrances, the iso-e is more. In some, the hedione is more. It depends on what kind of scent you want.

    I would go on the Perfumers Apprentice website and learn the Carles method. Use that approach to make the simplest accords with a selection of materials you like. Then go from there.

    You have to learn perfuming from the ground up. Get your fundamentals and building blocks down. Just keep learning something new every day.

    There are no quick and magical ways to learn. But I do think the Carles method teaches you how not to waste time. A person could flounder around for decades otherwise. His idea is just to methodically combine things. So I would combine that with other kinds of learning about perfumery. then when you get specific quesions, ask them here and we will help

  6. #6

    Default Re: Ethanol + Hedione + Iso E ? Where to start...?

    It is said that Hedione does not really smell much like anything, but that it has an effect on other aromas in the fragrance. What percentage would the floor be for such an effect?

  7. #7

    Default Re: Ethanol + Hedione + Iso E ? Where to start...?

    Hedione does have a smell; it smells light and floral with a hint of citrus. It is not that strong, however its effect is enormous. I think Eau Sauvage was the first fragrance to use Hedione, and it was there at about 0.5%. CK1 had about 30.0%. The only way to find out is to try it and see. Hedione's effect will be different depending on what else is there.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Ethanol + Hedione + Iso E ? Where to start...?

    Also i have a question related to this.
    If you have only hedione and iso e super what would be the third component needed to make perfume? (other then alcohol) 1 for man and 1 for woman.
    Thnx.

  9. #9
    Jamie Frater
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    Default Re: Ethanol + Hedione + Iso E ? Where to start...?

    Quote Originally Posted by devros89 View Post
    It is said that Hedione does not really smell much like anything, but that it has an effect on other aromas in the fragrance. What percentage would the floor be for such an effect?
    It may interest you to know that Edmond Roudnitska, when compounding Eau Sauvage, stated that 1.8% hedione gave you the maximum diffusion and that more gave no added benefit. He was the first perfumer to use hedione in a fragrance and he did use it later in others at a higher dose (Diorella for example) so I am not sure if he was referring to the maximum benefit as a booster for lemon in a cologne or whether he meant it in general.

    Many perfumers use it at vastly higher doses of course - First from Van Cleef and Arpels (the only decent thing Jean Claude Ellena has made in my opinion) was the first overdose of hedione at 20%.
    Currently wearing: 1000 by Jean Patou

  10. #10
    Jamie Frater
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    Default Re: Ethanol + Hedione + Iso E ? Where to start...?

    Quote Originally Posted by knaqsim View Post
    Also i have a question related to this.
    If you have only hedione and iso e super what would be the third component needed to make perfume? (other then alcohol) 1 for man and 1 for woman.
    Thnx.
    Nothing? You can make a perfume with just hedione and ethanol - or just iso e super and ethanol like eccentric molecules does.

    Going beyond single chemicals you get things like the Grojssman accord which mixes iso-e-super, hedione, methyl ionone, and galaxolide at similar proportions. It is a trick that makes everything smell perfumey and the principle of her accord is behind a huge number of modern perfumes.
    Currently wearing: 1000 by Jean Patou

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Ethanol + Hedione + Iso E ? Where to start...?

    Just seen cartier declaration its almost only iso e super am i wrong?

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Ethanol + Hedione + Iso E ? Where to start...?

    I keep thinking that beginners could be helped by a few very concrete formulas to start with. Just to get into the thinking, and get a quick result that is rewarding and gives a little self confidence. At the same time something that opens up for further experimentation. Of course there are different ways of learning (see Learning Styles) and taking on perfumery as a hobby. But for practice, I could imagine a kind of three step ladder:

    Step one: Try an easy blend with Iso E super, Hedione and a simple musk (like galaxolide) as is mentionend in this thread. It will smell nice for a beginner, its cheap, and will make you feel good about using strange chemicals that you had no idea of before. Then, its incredibly easy to start mixing in some essential oils, to make this blend go in different directions.

    Step two: Start trying more ingredients, at the level of Jeroen Sparlas public formulas. I think its a lovely hobbyist level on these examples, where many ingredients still are easy to come by, and the whole site is made with a pedagogic touch. They are easy to develop further, from personal taste. And they will make a beginner able to start discussing recepies, ingredients and tweaks.
    https://sites.google.com/site/perfumerecipes/home

    Step three: Dive into the strange and unruly demo formulas at Thegoodscentscompany.com. There are intermediate formulas, that uses cheap materials that are easy to come by. But a beginner will also start noticing the more qualified formulas, the expensive materials and rare stuff. Unfortunately the site is hopless to navigate in, I still havent found a logical way of finding what I seek. But the content is a gold mine, and from Google there is always a way to start seeking. After half a year of continous experimentation here, a hobbyist perfumer is likely to know what more experienced people are talking about. And she is able to create some quite nice and personal blends.

    Does anyone agree? Could this be a startup method for anyone interested in the perfumery world?

    /Pelle
    Last edited by Filipsson; 8th June 2016 at 02:57 PM.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Ethanol + Hedione + Iso E ? Where to start...?

    I think that's more or less what we did, although we didn't make much of Sparlas formulas, but we did experiment with the perfumers apprentice accord formulas.

    I think something like this can easily be made into a little practice program, along with a starter list of chemicals that are a good starting point to study and work with. There should be a lot of emphasis on knowing those, before going further. (Even if it is to give David Rushkin some rest in having to tell everyone constantly ;-) )

    I think a lot of this information can be found just reading a bit around the forum and using Google and common sense? Of course if there is a concrete interest to do this, go right ahead! :-)

  14. #14

    Default Re: Ethanol + Hedione + Iso E ? Where to start...?

    There is a startup method. The 'stickies', a notebook and a cup of coffee or few. These stickies are hours and hours of research and useful information assembled by learners and experienced alike to help newbs not get lost. I think perhaps it's only the name 'stickies' that never says anything about what they really are.

    Perhaps the 'stickies should be re-named 'The new perfumers information centre' to have more appeal and perceived value.
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  15. #15

    Default Re: Ethanol + Hedione + Iso E ? Where to start...?

    If you wish me to list the first set of ingredients that I had to learn, when I started training I will happily do so.

    I still maintain that it is necessary to get a feel for the individual ingredients, to learn how to smell properly, to start developing an odour memory and an analytical sense of smell, before you start trying to create even the simplest blend. If you do not build up a thorough knowledge of the ingredients you wish to use, you cannot make a decent fragrance. It is the same as learning to play the piano; without mastering the scales and fingering techniques you cannot play properly. I know this practice is boring, and I understand that everyone wants to start right away making wonderful perfumes, but unless you start with the former you will find the latter so much harder to achieve.

    And by the way, my name is David Ruskin (not Rushkin).

  16. #16

    Default Re: Ethanol + Hedione + Iso E ? Where to start...?

    David Ruskin

    Did the order in which you learned the chemicals ad value to your understanding of them? If so, I would love to hear a method. If not, just studying should suffice, right? :-)

    (And I will not get that name wrong again, an international pronounciation issue, very sorry!)

  17. #17

    Default Re: Ethanol + Hedione + Iso E ? Where to start...?

    I don't think that the ingredients I first studied were more important than any other. They were the most commonly used ingredients that's all. They were found in pretty well every fragrance known. We started smelling synthetics, they are easier than Essential oils (like a single note rather than a chord). By learning the basics we found it easier to then go on to learn the less familiar ingredients.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Ethanol + Hedione + Iso E ? Where to start...?

    That's exactly why we started studying with aromachemicals rather than with essential oils. Linalool, some musks, coumarine, everything that's commonly used. Chemicals will remain the same, while every batch of an essential oil will differ, at least that what we thought.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Ethanol + Hedione + Iso E ? Where to start...?

    Grojsman accord, it is always a good starting point.
    But study and prove with many A.C. and many E.O./absolutes, are fundamental...
    Last edited by Geco; 8th June 2016 at 10:17 PM.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Ethanol + Hedione + Iso E ? Where to start...?

    I think in a way I'm glad I can across that rather late. I think we spent the first year in utter confusement, just sitting around with aromachemicals, making up descriptions and adding stuff to stuff and taking notes. The Grosjmanaccord is genius but I agree that just studying the material is fundemental. We recently came across Jean Claude Ellena's diary of a nose and he suggests a nice game where you smell two or three chemicals that make up a realistic scent, like cherry's. (I haven't studied what those combinations do longevitywise or if they are useful in an actual composition, but it was a lot of fun!) If I'm not breaking the law or conduct I'd be happy to share them here.

    I think it's all about fun and exposure, but I also think when starting out it's nice to have a plan to hold on to. I think everyone is very eager to get started and with the study of only a few aromachemicals something like a fig or a basic rose are easy enough to do. It helped us a lot to not just study but have some small successes from the start, just to not lose heart.

    And finding a nice basic rose composition with around four or five chemicals with the addition of a bit of the Grosjmanaccord to us was a moment of "aha! It can be done, we can make something that's at least useable!"

  21. #21
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    Default Re: Ethanol + Hedione + Iso E ? Where to start...?

    Of course youre right about the stickies. They are an excellent introduction to the whole area. I presume from the prefix "Stickies are mainly gone" that there has been a few more earlier. But I really enjoy the concentrated knowledge there. However, as I suggest, a few very obvious, simple formulas, could give some apprentice perfumers a good start. With that said, I should mention that I am an extremey practical learner, who prefer to start experiment before I understand things... Not always effective, but extremely fun.

    To get back a little to the original subject, here are a few demo formulas from Firmenisch, that shows the extremely high amounts of Iso E super and Hedione that is used. Myself, I am not very fond of overdosing these materials. I claim that overdosing these result in very generic perfumes. But its all about taste:
    http://www.firmenich.com/en_INT/ingr...nnovation.html

    /Pelle

  22. #22

    Default Re: Ethanol + Hedione + Iso E ? Where to start...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Filipsson View Post
    They are an excellent introduction to the whole area. I presume from the prefix "Stickies are mainly gone" that there has been a few more earlier.
    I think not so much 'gone' as condensed by Irina into a more comprehensive thread that is easier to understand than the varied trawl through it was before. The stickies were overtaking the whole top area of posts and she settled down and very kindly organised them for everyone.

    Also too, go here and click on the green band saying demo formulas

    http://www.thegoodscentscompany.com/data/rw1015271.html

    and here

    http://www.thegoodscentscompany.com/data/rw1020611.html

    Glimming them as a whole starts giving you a good idea of what sort of relative quantity is being used within formulas.
    Last edited by mumsy; 10th June 2016 at 09:29 AM.
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  23. #23
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    Default Re: Ethanol + Hedione + Iso E ? Where to start...?

    Ok formulas. However, to buy many many materials (E.O./absolutes and A.C...spend a lot of money...) and smell them and taking notes, It remains the basis for learning..
    ciao

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