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  1. #1

    Exclamation German Television Documentary

    While I was in Berlin last week I watched an alarming tv documentary about the perfume industry and disruption caused by certain major players. The programme focused mainly on the escapades of L'Oreal. The programme was shown approximately 9 days ago and hopefully can be still be viewed through the website of the tv company. The programme was called Umschau and was shown on either MDR, (Mid Deutsches Rundfunk) or WDR, (West Deutsches Rundfunk). I am not sure which it was, butI will try and find out and report back.
    They had indepth interviews with three german online perfume retailers. An example was given of Alien Absolute which has a "recommended" retail price of €95. One of the online sellers was offering this fragrance for €38. The companies who produce these fragrances are trying to stop the cutprice online sellers by using various dirty tricks. The main trick L'Oreal was using was to issue lawsuites against the online companies claiming, (falsely) that the sellers were selling counterfeit ware - which in all of the shown cases turned out not to be the case. However, baffled judges who are not specialised in these fields were siding with L'Oreal and subsequently these companies were receiving crippling fines, but were in fact selling the genuine product. L'Oreal has made a sport out of these bullying/terrorising tactics and many other examples were shown including an example showing the fragrance Diesel Zero Plus.
    The programme showed systematic terrorisation by L'Oreal which focused on online companies with the sole aim of eliminating them.

    LVMH is using other tricks and in France has actually blocked computer users with a french IP address from purchasing any online LVMH products not offered directy by their authorised online websites. They have even gone one step further and blocked online purchasing of ALL perfumes with the name Vetiver, (regardless of the fact that it may be a vetever fragrance from a company outside of the LVMH umbrella).
    The tv documentary was disturbing to say the least and the action of these giants scandalous.
    Last edited by david; 15th August 2014 at 07:06 PM.
    " Only wimps swim with the current "

  2. #2

    Default Re: L'Oreal - Ruthless Dirty Tricks

    What's done in the dark, will always come to the light!

  3. #3

    Default Re: L'Oreal - Ruthless Dirty Tricks

    Usually, it's not about online sellers selling counterfeit product, but about them using the company's logos, artwork, and other intellectual properties when advertising said product online. I may be wrong though.

  4. #4

    Default Re: L'Oreal - Ruthless Dirty Tricks

    It's perfectly within L'Oreal right's to do all this. They grey market is a cancer for businesses. Selling product with almost zero margin is one giant race to the bottom that nobody wins.

  5. #5

    Default Re: L'Oreal - Ruthless Dirty Tricks

    If this is all true, then it calls for an all out Boycott or maybe not???
    "Thank GOD for the nose, for without it we would not be enjoying these beautiful created Scents" also Remember "Balance is everything and the key to appreciating "

  6. #6

    Default Re: L'Oreal - Ruthless Dirty Tricks

    Quote Originally Posted by dmckean44 View Post
    It's perfectly within L'Oreal right's to do all this. They grey market is a cancer for businesses. Selling product with almost zero margin is one giant race to the bottom that nobody wins.
    So what are they supposed to do with all of the discontinued/reformulated, etc., stock?
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  7. #7

    Default Re: L'Oreal - Ruthless Dirty Tricks

    Quote Originally Posted by lpp View Post
    So what are they supposed to do with all of the discontinued/reformulated, etc., stock?
    Destroy it like their contract says. I deal with this crap all the time, distributors are so shady. I had to break contract with my last distributor a few months ago for dumping a 27 of kegs of six months old IPA on the Philadelphia market, a market we don't even distribute in. Lots of negative reviews from people trying our beer for the first time. The entire experience was so infuriating.

  8. #8

    Default Re: L'Oreal - Ruthless Dirty Tricks

    It must be awful for you but many of us are actually joyously happy to find discontinued or pre-reform versions of our favourite scents - it's a little different to beer.
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  9. #9

    Default Re: L'Oreal - Ruthless Dirty Tricks

    Quote Originally Posted by lpp View Post
    It must be awful for you but many of us are actually joyously happy to find discontinued or pre-reform versions of our favourite scents - it's a little different to beer.
    Some people are so totally wrapped up an agressive global capitalist system that they forget their truest customers.
    " Only wimps swim with the current "

  10. #10

    Default Re: L'Oreal - Ruthless Dirty Tricks

    Quote Originally Posted by dmckean44 View Post
    It's perfectly within L'Oreal right's to do all this. They grey market is a cancer for businesses. Selling product with almost zero margin is one giant race to the bottom that nobody wins.
    What a disgusting immoral reply.

    ps. the companies accused are not selling counterfeit ware. They are selling the genuine product at discounted price because they do not have the overheads that a retail store has. If the consumer prefers to buy online then so be it, but for L'Oreal to falsely accuse them of doing such practices is very immoral and affects the consumer and the genuine online retailers.

    pps. Your knowledge is extremely limited to speak of "zero margin". A bottle of Alien actually costs around $2 to produce...
    Last edited by david; 7th August 2014 at 08:53 PM.
    " Only wimps swim with the current "

  11. #11

    Default Re: L'Oreal - Ruthless Dirty Tricks

    If they sell without profit is his business model, free market you know?

  12. #12

    Default Re: L'Oreal - Ruthless Dirty Tricks

    Quote Originally Posted by david View Post
    What a disgusting immoral reply.
    I own three businesses and invest in many more and I have perspective that you lack. My brands and products are my reputation and it's completely up to me how to distribute my products.


    I'm out of this discussion.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: L'Oreal - Ruthless Dirty Tricks

    Very shady business, boycott!

  14. #14

    Default Re: L'Oreal - Ruthless Dirty Tricks

    Quote Originally Posted by dmckean44 View Post
    I own three businesses and invest in many more and I have perspective that you lack. My brands and products are my reputation and it's completely up to me how to distribute my products.


    I'm out of this discussion.
    Go ahead. Join Nestle...Poland Springs and all that....if you call that perspective.
    " Only wimps swim with the current "

  15. #15

    Default Re: L'Oreal - Ruthless Dirty Tricks

    Quote Originally Posted by NazguL2 View Post
    If they sell without profit is his business model, free market you know?
    I agree NazguL2.
    Actually, selling Alien for €38, these companies still have huge profits !
    " Only wimps swim with the current "

  16. #16
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    Default Re: L'Oreal - Ruthless Dirty Tricks

    At the end of the day if they or any buisness has contracts drawn up with retailers stating that...

    Lets say for example, product x has just been reformulated, the contract states that in this case the old -formulation stock left is to either be destroyed or sent back to the manafacturer to be destroyed because the brand doesnt want that product to be available anymore in its old state, then that is there right, and if companys are breaking them rules just to make extra money then they are in breach of there contract and are entitled to take them to court.

    Same applies to if a manafacturer gives specific sell by dates on a product to be at its best condition, or if they decide to change the packaging.

    I dont blame them, they are not running a charity service, they no how they want there product represented in its best light, or what they would percieve to be its best light. There may also be banned ingredients in old formulations thus leaving the company liable to issues if something happens with someones health using the product. Its amazing how selfish and blinkered people can be just to save a few bucks. There is alot more to it than just the company potentially being greedy.

    I think its as simple as that really...
    Last edited by DMA; 7th August 2014 at 09:14 PM.

  17. #17

    Default Re: L'Oreal - Ruthless Dirty Tricks

    Quote Originally Posted by dmckean44 View Post
    It's perfectly within L'Oreal right's to do all this. They grey market is a cancer for businesses. Selling product with almost zero margin is one giant race to the bottom that nobody wins.
    I respectfully disagree. If I buy something I value at a reduced price I win. I am not a nobody.

    I find it abhorrent when the system is manipulated by corporations with a seemingly limitless budget for attorney fees in an effort to keep the market under their complete control. Not only is it unfair to smaller businesses who are willing to work harder for less profit, it is a misuse of the court's time and ultimately, the taxpayers' $$ because they pay for the courts' time. I have no opinion about whether L'Oreal has the legal right to use these tactics. Even assuming they do, it doesn't make it right that they do it.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: L'Oreal - Ruthless Dirty Tricks

    Your not going to like me for saying this, but statistically where you stand in the chain of consumerism is you are actually a nobody if your purchasing a product from an unoffical source and if that product shouldnt be available to you from that source, or if your purchasing a product that doesnt exist anymore and/or should of been destroyed.

    Its as simple as that. Your opinion actually doesnt count to the company because you are not a customer...

    Am i making sense? Because that is the reality of your place and where you stand in all of this...
    Last edited by DMA; 7th August 2014 at 09:34 PM.

  19. #19

    Default Re: L'Oreal - Ruthless Dirty Tricks

    What statistics?

  20. #20
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    Default Re: L'Oreal - Ruthless Dirty Tricks

    Personally I think it all depends on how those retailers are getting the product they are selling. Obviously they are not buying directly from the manufacturer, or they would have the same contracts and agreements that the full price retailers have. If they are getting stock illegally (likely or L'Oreal or the other companies would stop selling stock to them rather than sue them), I don't care if it is real or not, they shouldn't be selling it. A stolen car is cheaper than a new one...that doesn't mean it should be sold.
    On the other hand, if the online stores are purchasing them legally, for example in cases of different pricing for different geographic locations, then they do not hurt the manufacturer's bottom line directly by selling at lower prices than recommended.

    I see merits on both sides of the argument...on the one hand, if the online retailers are doing nothing illegal (purchasing the bottles legitimately for resale), then why should the manufacturer be able to put them out of business. On the other hand...in perfumery it seems like a company's reputation and perceived position is a key to their ongoing success...and a high price tag, for better or worse, is often seen as a proxy for high quality and exclusivity. It may indeed hurt the company significantly if that perception of exclusivity is damaged in any way.

    The tactics are deplorable if what was related is accurate in both specific cases...but stopping products that are being sold or acquired illegally is not, and stopping unauthorized sellers from hurting the company's reputation is not.

  21. #21

    Default Re: L'Oreal - Ruthless Dirty Tricks

    Quote Originally Posted by socalwoman View Post
    I respectfully disagree. If I buy something I value at a reduced price I win. I am not a nobody.

    I find it abhorrent when the system is manipulated by corporations with a seemingly limitless budget for attorney fees in an effort to keep the market under their complete control. Not only is it unfair to smaller businesses who are willing to work harder for less profit, it is a misuse of the court's time and ultimately, the taxpayers' $$ because they pay for the courts' time. I have no opinion about whether L'Oreal has the legal right to use these tactics. Even assuming they do, it doesn't make it right that they do it.
    Thanks socalwoman for an intelligent reply. It seems like many basenoters are really missing the point here.
    " Only wimps swim with the current "

  22. #22

    Default Re: L'Oreal - Ruthless Dirty Tricks

    Quote Originally Posted by DMA View Post
    Your not going to like me for saying this, but statistically where you stand in the chain of consumerism is you are actually a nobody if your purchasing a product from an unoffical source and if that product shouldnt be available to you from that source, or if your purchasing a product that doesnt exist anymore and/or should of been destroyed.

    Its as simple as that. Your opinion actually doesnt count to the company because you are not a customer...

    Am i making sense? Because that is the reality of your place and where you stand in all of this...
    Unfortunately you are not making sense. We are talking about "legitimate" online retailers selling "legitimate", (genuine) perfumes at discounted prices.....(a basenoters dream !!!) being FALSELY accused by L'Oreal.


    ...essex boys don't get it...
    " Only wimps swim with the current "

  23. #23

    Default Re: L'Oreal - Ruthless Dirty Tricks

    Quote Originally Posted by dmckean44 View Post
    I own three businesses and invest in many more and I have perspective that you lack. My brands and products are my reputation and it's completely up to me how to distribute my products...
    Well said.

  24. #24
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    Default Re: L'Oreal - Ruthless Dirty Tricks

    There not legitamtly selling anything if there is a fixed price and its being sold for less.

    Believe me when i tell you essex boys are perfectly capable of getting it.

    If theres a product with a set price in the uk, and a set price in the united states, and wherever else, then in those contracts it will be stated. whoever the bad link in the chain is that is breaking that contract rule, some middle man in the link no doubt, is accountable for breaking that law.
    Last edited by DMA; 7th August 2014 at 09:51 PM.

  25. #25

    Default Re: L'Oreal - Ruthless Dirty Tricks

    Quote Originally Posted by baaghji View Post
    Personally I think it all depends on how those retailers are getting the product they are selling. Obviously they are not buying directly from the manufacturer, or they would have the same contracts and agreements that the full price retailers have. If they are getting stock illegally (likely or L'Oreal or the other companies would stop selling stock to them rather than sue them), I don't care if it is real or not, they shouldn't be selling it. A stolen car is cheaper than a new one...that doesn't mean it should be sold.
    On the other hand, if the online stores are purchasing them legally, for example in cases of different pricing for different geographic locations, then they do not hurt the manufacturer's bottom line directly by selling at lower prices than recommended.



    I see merits on both sides of the argument...on the one hand, if the online retailers are doing nothing illegal (purchasing the bottles legitimately for resale), then why should the manufacturer be able to put them out of business. On the other hand...in perfumery it seems like a company's reputation and perceived position is a key to their ongoing success...and a high price tag, for better or worse, is often seen as a proxy for high quality and exclusivity. It may indeed hurt the company significantly if that perception of exclusivity is damaged in any way.

    The tactics are deplorable if what was related is accurate in both specific cases...but stopping products that are being sold or acquired illegally is not, and stopping unauthorized sellers from hurting the company's reputation is not.
    These online companies ARE buying from the official sources. They are selling at discounted prices because they can afford to. They do not have the overheads that a high street store in a city centre has, (eg rents/ rates, hire of sales staff etc.) Get it ?
    Last edited by david; 7th August 2014 at 09:53 PM.
    " Only wimps swim with the current "

  26. #26

    Default Re: L'Oreal - Ruthless Dirty Tricks

    Quote Originally Posted by DMA View Post
    There not legitamtly selling anything if there is a fixed price and its being sold for less.

    Believe me when i tell you essex boys are perfectly capable of getting it.

    If theres a product with a set price in the uk, and a set price in the united states, and wherever else, then in those contracts it will be stated. whoever the bad link in the chain is that is breaking that contract rule, some middle man in the link no doubt, is accountable for breaking that law.
    There is no set price. This is not an oil cartel. It is a free market. There are only "recommended" retail price guidelines. No set price.
    Last edited by david; 7th August 2014 at 10:02 PM.
    " Only wimps swim with the current "

  27. #27
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    Default Re: L'Oreal - Ruthless Dirty Tricks

    Fixed pricing exists. Any brand can state in there contract with the retailer at what price the product must be sold for. They also can and do state whether that product is allowed to be sold in a sale at a reduced rate.

    This is why the very high end never has sales of anything. Try walking into an official creed or xerjoff stockist and purchasing one of there bottles in the new year sale, it wont happen because the brand does not allow it to happen. Even normal brands will have restrictions set in there contracts, less limiting than high end brands but they will exist.You may be able to get 10 euros off dior homme sport in the new year sale though, but that will only be if the brand allows the retailer to do so in the first place. they may not want there product being seen as in a sale, or cheap, or inferior.
    Last edited by DMA; 7th August 2014 at 10:07 PM.

  28. #28

    Default Re: L'Oreal - Ruthless Dirty Tricks

    Considering what their recent released are like, they can keep these scents! LOL.

  29. #29

    Default Re: L'Oreal - Ruthless Dirty Tricks

    Quote Originally Posted by DMA View Post
    We understand that bit, but a hell of alot of brands have fixed pricing these days, or they most certainly do when a product is first released thats for sure. They may not care say 2 years after release and alllow it to be sold in sales by retailers etc, but not usually immediatley and without there permission.

    You suprise me actually you are from Europe also you should understand that.
    This is simply not true.
    " Only wimps swim with the current "

  30. #30

    Default Re: L'Oreal - Ruthless Dirty Tricks

    Quote Originally Posted by david View Post
    Unfortunately you are not making sense. We are talking about "legitimate" online retailers selling "legitimate", (genuine) perfumes at discounted prices.....(a basenoters dream !!!) being FALSELY accused by L'Oreal.


    ...essex boys don't get it...
    May I respectfully ask if that it's possible that your television show presented only one side of the story? L'Oreal has its own side, too, which that show may have ignored in a rush to paint a picture of a big, bad company going after the little guy. I can't agree. I don't know L'Oreal but I have experience with well-known companies getting royally jobbed by online sellers selling counterfeit, expired or revoked merchandise. That takes legitimate sales away from the company, but more importantly, it leaves consumers upset (and occasionally harmed) and the company's reputation harmed.

    Whether that one seller's products were legitimate or not, L'Oreal may have thought they weren't. From what you've said, the seller is either not an authorized distributor or is not following L'Oreal's distribution contract. Whichever is the case, according to a court, L'Oreal has the legal right to prevent the seller from selling its products without following L'Oreal's terms. That seller was doing something commercially wrongful to L'Oreal, and while some might have liked it that consumers were getting a lower price, consumers also get a lower price when criminals highjack a truck of tomatoes and sell them off at half price. It still doesn't make it right.

    But, even if your suspicions are correct that L'Oreal is solely motivated by wanting to make more money, so what? They are a company in business to make money. The online seller is a company in business to make money, too. One was doing so wrongfully, according to a court of law. L'Oreal has the right to protect its business legally. It has employees and stockholders depending on that. If we think its perfume is priced too high, we don't have to buy it.

    I'm not even a boy, so not an essex boy, whatever that is. I just disagree here. I find the issue interesting. It seems there's a lot of hostility to perfume companies in general, and I haven't figured that out.

  31. #31

    Default Re: L'Oreal - Ruthless Dirty Tricks

    Thanks for the info. Puts the whole fragrance industry in a completely different perspective. An interesting point/question would also be: what remedies or actions are available for customers (especially considering the grey areas and other controversial points)- whether boycotting alone or more.

  32. #32
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    Default Re: L'Oreal - Ruthless Dirty Tricks

    Quote Originally Posted by socalwoman View Post
    I respectfully disagree. If I buy something I value at a reduced price I win. I am not a nobody.

    I find it abhorrent when the system is manipulated by corporations with a seemingly limitless budget for attorney fees in an effort to keep the market under their complete control. Not only is it unfair to smaller businesses who are willing to work harder for less profit, it is a misuse of the court's time and ultimately, the taxpayers' $$ because they pay for the courts' time. I have no opinion about whether L'Oreal has the legal right to use these tactics. Even assuming they do, it doesn't make it right that they do it.
    Agreed! Very well said, socalwoman.

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    Default Re: L'Oreal - Ruthless Dirty Tricks

    Quote Originally Posted by david View Post
    This is simply not true.
    Ok would you care to explain to me then why a few years ago when dior homme sport was released and i went to a mall to purchase it and i looked around in various places, at that time it didnt make any difference whether i went to house of fraser, or boots, or john lewis, or debenhams, every single store was selling it at the same price?

    Why was that then?...

  34. #34

    Default Re: L'Oreal - Ruthless Dirty Tricks

    Quote Originally Posted by david View Post
    There is no set price. This is not an oil cartel. It is a free market. There are only "recommended" retail price guidelines. No set price.
    This may be true for perfume, but it is my understanding that both France and Germany have fixed prices for books. This is justified, inter alia, as a way to prevent the big bad American online retailer Amazon.com from destroying the market for local bookstores by undercutting them, due to the same lower rents and wages you point to for the online perfume retailer.

    Books are an interesting parallel. It has been argued that removing fixed prices for books will result in lower prices for consumers. But it has turned out the opposite way in some markets. What happened was a race to the bottom which put most retail competitors out of business, leaving the survivors to raise prices. It turns out that those online retailers are actually in business to make as much money as possible themselves.

  35. #35

    Default Re: L'Oreal - Ruthless Dirty Tricks

    Quote Originally Posted by Mocha View Post
    May I respectfully ask if that it's possible that your television show presented only one side of the story? L'Oreal has its own side, too, which that show may have ignored in a rush to paint a picture of a big, bad company going after the little guy. I can't agree. I don't know L'Oreal but I have experience with well-known companies getting royally jobbed by online sellers selling counterfeit, expired or revoked merchandise. That takes legitimate sales away from the company, but more importantly, it leaves consumers upset (and occasionally harmed) and the company's reputation harmed.

    Whether that one seller's products were legitimate or not, L'Oreal may have thought they weren't. From what you've said, the seller is either not an authorized distributor or is not following L'Oreal's distribution contract. Whichever is the case, according to a court, L'Oreal has the legal right to prevent the seller from selling its products without following L'Oreal's terms. That seller was doing something commercially wrongful to L'Oreal, and while some might have liked it that consumers were getting a lower price, consumers also get a lower price when criminals highjack a truck of tomatoes and sell them off at half price. It still doesn't make it right.

    But, even if your suspicions are correct that L'Oreal is solely motivated by wanting to make more money, so what? They are a company in business to make money. The online seller is a company in business to make money, too. One was doing so wrongfully, according to a court of law. L'Oreal has the right to protect its business legally. It has employees and stockholders depending on that. If we think its perfume is priced too high, we don't have to buy it.

    I'm not even a boy, so not an essex boy, whatever that is. I just disagree here. I find the issue interesting. It seems there's a lot of hostility to perfume companies in general, and I haven't figured that out.
    It seems you have a hostility toward fair, (legitimate) free trade? I find this very strange. To get an understanding of my viewpoint read the post from Socalwoman. She sums it up excellently.
    " Only wimps swim with the current "

  36. #36

    Default Re: L'Oreal - Ruthless Dirty Tricks

    Quote Originally Posted by DMA View Post
    Ok would you care to explain to me then why a few years ago when dior homme sport was released and i went to a mall to purchase it and i looked around in various places, at that time it didnt make any difference whether i went to house of fraser, or boots, or john lewis, or debenhams, every single store was selling it at the same price?

    Why was that then?...
    ...er...because you did not look online.
    " Only wimps swim with the current "

  37. #37

    Default Re: L'Oreal - Ruthless Dirty Tricks

    If I could only buy their new releases at $80 a bottle or whatever, I would just make my own scents.

  38. #38

    Default Re: L'Oreal - Ruthless Dirty Tricks

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken_Russell View Post
    Thanks for the info. Puts the whole fragrance industry in a completely different perspective. An interesting point/question would also be: what remedies or actions are available for customers (especially considering the grey areas and other controversial points)- whether boycotting alone or more.
    The problem of counterfeits is a huge problem, but that was not the issue in this documentary. It was all about infringement of free trade. I have seen similar tv documentaries concerning other giants such as Coca Cola and Nestle. The bigger these companies get the more they use protectionist strategies to keep the smaller players out.
    I personally think that online purchasing is going to get much bigger than it already is and hight street retailers are going to have to face that problem rather than lobbying their suppliers.
    " Only wimps swim with the current "

  39. #39
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    Default Re: L'Oreal - Ruthless Dirty Tricks

    Quote Originally Posted by david View Post
    ...er...because you did not look online.
    Every place official was the same price when it was first released. They will catch up with people in the end who are BREAKING THE LAW if any laws are broken subject to the any brands contracts. To think big brands wont persue these type of issues is delusion. No doubt one company gets shut down and another just opens up in another name, but its good to no there onto people who break the law, even if it takes time.
    .

  40. #40
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    Default Re: L'Oreal - Ruthless Dirty Tricks

    Well, you know, nobody likes hearing about bullies filing false charges, but I admire and patronize companies that protect their brands. They're just trying to maintain the prestige of their brand and, importantly, they're trying to protect their loyal full-price retailers. Their loyal customers too.

    As the CEO for the Americas of a major French perfumery told me years ago, this is a high value-to-weight business, and that always attracts the worst kind of smuggling, product diversion, counterfeiting, and so on. So the brands - if they care about their brands - have to help manage the distribution chain. I admire L'Oreal and LVMH for what you're describing. I also enjoyed reading here the other day about Bond cleaning up their distribution. I never really thought much of Bond before but I think more highly of them now. If you're in the prestige fragrance business and you're selling $200 bottles of perfume, your business will be cannibalized by schlocky online retailers selling tiny $5 vials of that fragrance to cheapskates. There is a whole culture of artistry and creativity being supported by full retail prices, the style magazines, the ad agencies, The designers and noses and graphic artists, the people who design the window displays at Barney's and Bergdorf Goodman, Karl Lagerfeld, Hedi Slimane, dear Alber, and many others. You don't get all of this good stuff in societies where people can't defend their intellectual property.

    And I really don't see anything wrong with prestige brands acting on behalf of their department store customers. I don't see anything wrong with me getting a deal on something when I can get it from a trusted resource either - I don't want to ascribe more altruism to myself than I actually deserve - but I'm quite sympathetic to brand builders trying to keep freeloaders off of the gravy train it took them decades to build.
    Last edited by Wheatstraw2; 7th August 2014 at 11:35 PM.

  41. #41

    Default Re: L'Oreal - Ruthless Dirty Tricks

    Corporate monster companies work against the free market because in most cases they can't compete in a free market. It's a losing battle in the long run but that never stops them from trying. One of the indicators that you live in a retarded system is when you see governments or companies destroying perfectly usable products or commodities. There never seems to be a shortage of brainwashed corporate toadies that defend their insanity though.

    I could be wrong though, maybe destroying products is perfectly rational and sane in a system with limited resources.

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    Default Re: L'Oreal - Ruthless Dirty Tricks

    Quote Originally Posted by Wheatstraw2 View Post
    Well, you know, nobody likes hearing about bullies filing false charges, but I admire and patronize companies that protect their brands. They're just trying to maintain the prestige of their brand and, importantly, they're trying to protect their loyal full-price retailers. Their loyal customers too. I think that $300 for a bottle of something good, that will last me for eons if I even ever finish it, is a good deal. For me. Compare that to the cost of, I don't know, what you pay to maintain an apartment in, let's say, Berlin.

    As the CEO for the Americas of a major French perfumery told me years ago, this is a high value-to-weight business, and that always attracts the worst kind of smuggling, product diversion, counterfeiting, and so on. So the brands - if they care about their brands - have to help manage the distribution chain. I admire L'Oreal and LVMH for what you're describing. I also enjoyed reading here the other day about Bond cleaning up their distribution. I never really thought much of Bond before but I think more highly of them now. If you're in the prestige fragrance business and you're selling $200 bottles of perfume, your business will be cannibalized by schlocky online retailers selling tiny $5 vials of that fragrance to cheapskates. There is a whole culture of artistry and creativity being supported by full retail prices, the style magazines, the ad agencies, The designers and noses and graphic artists, the people who design the window displays at Barney's and Bergdorf Goodman, Karl Lagerfeld, Hedi Slimane, dear Alber, and many others. You don't get all of this good stuff in societies where people can't defend their intellectual property.

    And I really don't see anything wrong with prestige brands acting on behalf of their department store customers. I don't see anything wrong with me getting a deal on something when I can get it from a trusted resource either - I don't want to ascribe more altruism to myself than I actually deserve - but I'm quite sympathetic to brand builders trying to keep freeloaders off of the gravy train it took them decades to build.
    I agree. Can you imagine the amount of people who must be purchasing a sample of something high end online from somewhere and then purchasing it from a non official retailer. Wheres that money going to?

    if i want to sample say an amouage i have to travel to harrods in central london an hour away to sample it. Its also good to no there happy to spray me in the store, i dont want to pay 10 pounds for the privledge to do so, granted i may have to pay travel expenses but that is not the point.

    Im a creed customer and they give me everything i want in terms of samples never paid for anything and dont have any intentions to. I wonder how creed feels everytime someone purchases a sample of aventus online or freely tests in an official store and then goes and buys a bottle on ebay, us genuine customers are paying more for the product for this very reason, due to people like these...
    Last edited by DMA; 7th August 2014 at 11:43 PM.

  43. #43
    Basenotes Junkie Wheatstraw2's Avatar
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    Default Re: L'Oreal - Ruthless Dirty Tricks

    Well let's see now, I'm typing on a phone made by a monster corporation, I'm enjoying air conditioning made by a monster corporation, the chair I'm sitting in was made by a monster corporation, my feet are up on the desk, made by a monster corporation, the computers next to me were made by monster corporations.....

    oops, edit, reply to Awakening950
    Last edited by Wheatstraw2; 8th August 2014 at 12:02 AM.

  44. #44
    Basenotes Junkie Wheatstraw2's Avatar
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    Default Re: L'Oreal - Ruthless Dirty Tricks

    Quote Originally Posted by Mocha View Post
    May I respectfully ask if that it's possible that your television show presented only one side of the story? L'Oreal has its own side, too, which that show may have ignored in a rush to paint a picture of a big, bad company going after the little guy. I can't agree. I don't know L'Oreal but I have experience with well-known companies getting royally jobbed by online sellers selling counterfeit, expired or revoked merchandise. That takes legitimate sales away from the company, but more importantly, it leaves consumers upset (and occasionally harmed) and the company's reputation harmed.

    Whether that one seller's products were legitimate or not, L'Oreal may have thought they weren't. From what you've said, the seller is either not an authorized distributor or is not following L'Oreal's distribution contract. Whichever is the case, according to a court, L'Oreal has the legal right to prevent the seller from selling its products without following L'Oreal's terms. That seller was doing something commercially wrongful to L'Oreal, and while some might have liked it that consumers were getting a lower price, consumers also get a lower price when criminals highjack a truck of tomatoes and sell them off at half price. It still doesn't make it right.

    But, even if your suspicions are correct that L'Oreal is solely motivated by wanting to make more money, so what? They are a company in business to make money. The online seller is a company in business to make money, too. One was doing so wrongfully, according to a court of law. L'Oreal has the right to protect its business legally. It has employees and stockholders depending on that. If we think its perfume is priced too high, we don't have to buy it.

    I'm not even a boy, so not an essex boy, whatever that is. I just disagree here. I find the issue interesting. It seems there's a lot of hostility to perfume companies in general, and I haven't figured that out.
    omg, clear thinking and beautifully written. Nicely done. Amazing.

  45. #45

    Default Re: L'Oreal - Ruthless Dirty Tricks

    Quote Originally Posted by Wheatstraw2 View Post
    Well, you know, nobody likes hearing about bullies filing false charges, but I admire and patronize companies that protect their brands. They're just trying to maintain the prestige of their brand and, importantly, they're trying to protect their loyal full-price retailers. Their loyal customers too.

    As the CEO for the Americas of a major French perfumery told me years ago, this is a high value-to-weight business, and that always attracts the worst kind of smuggling, product diversion, counterfeiting, and so on. So the brands - if they care about their brands - have to help manage the distribution chain. I admire L'Oreal and LVMH for what you're describing. I also enjoyed reading here the other day about Bond cleaning up their distribution. I never really thought much of Bond before but I think more highly of them now. If you're in the prestige fragrance business and you're selling $200 bottles of perfume, your business will be cannibalized by schlocky online retailers selling tiny $5 vials of that fragrance to cheapskates. There is a whole culture of artistry and creativity being supported by full retail prices, the style magazines, the ad agencies, The designers and noses and graphic artists, the people who design the window displays at Barney's and Bergdorf Goodman, Karl Lagerfeld, Hedi Slimane, dear Alber, and many others. You don't get all of this good stuff in societies where people can't defend their intellectual property.

    And I really don't see anything wrong with prestige brands acting on behalf of their department store customers. I don't see anything wrong with me getting a deal on something when I can get it from a trusted resource either - I don't want to ascribe more altruism to myself than I actually deserve - but I'm quite sympathetic to brand builders trying to keep freeloaders off of the gravy train it took them decades to build.
    Couldn't agree more. If I'm a major corporation that can afford the talent to create successful mass-market perfumes, I don't care if my customers like my products SO much that they'll actively seek to buy them from unauthorized retailers at prices far below my company's asking prices. What I care about are my customers getting products from authorized distributors, all bottles at or very close to my company's product valuated prices, so that quality control is ensured, and customers are being treated fairly. If some of the people who buy my frags are getting them for half the price of frags bought by others, that's unfair. It's unfair to my company and my customers.
    Last edited by HankHarvey; 8th August 2014 at 12:15 AM.

  46. #46

    Default Re: L'Oreal - Ruthless Dirty Tricks

    Quote Originally Posted by Awakening950 View Post
    Corporate monster companies work against the free market because in most cases they can't compete in a free market. It's a losing battle in the long run but that never stops them from trying. One of the indicators that you live in a retarded system is when you see governments or companies destroying perfectly usable products or commodities. There never seems to be a shortage of brainwashed corporate toadies that defend their insanity though.

    I could be wrong though, maybe destroying products is perfectly rational and sane in a system with limited resources.
    Exactly.

    Look, it is perfectly reasonable for a company to protect its brand in terms of controlling distribution for the sake of limiting counterfeit sales. This helps both the company and its customer. I get that. But once a company has sold its products to authorized wholesalers, the deal is done. The manufacturer has its money, the wholesaler has the product. As long as the wholesaler sells the product within its specified shelf life, then I see no problem. If the company wants to recall a perfectly good product for essentially no reason at all, only to destroy it, I'm sorry but this is out of the bounds of reason. Destroying goods that could go to use for some possibility of slightly higher future profits only makes sense to someone steeped in capitalist ideology.

    I realize that companies may have some legitimate need to control distribution, but there are bounds of reason. Arguing the legality of the matter isn't very convincing considering the companies essentially wrote the laws from which they benefit.

  47. #47

    Default Re: L'Oreal - Ruthless Dirty Tricks

    Illegal and unenforceable contracts are drawn up all the time,so that is no argument. And if the retailer did not have a contract, that especially is no argument, because they are not bound by one. And market efficiency will win out, the dated model with price controls cannot hold up when the market expands are more sellers compete for the same dollars. Profits will be reduced because it is competitive. I'm sure everyone would love to make inordinate profits for the long term, but that just isn't how the real world works. Competition drives prices down and the only way to stay afloat is to drive costs down. It sounds like the costs are already low for direct materials and labor, and more efficient players are pushing down costs to move more volume of product. Too bad for those manufacturers who can't use their assets efficiently enough to stay profitable, they don't deserve to remain on the market if so. As I understand it, most of the constituents and most of the constructs of these mass market scents come from the same fragrance giants making and selling the chemicals with perfumers shopping the formulations to the designer brands willing to pay for them anyway. Doesn't sound like any particular brand has so much necessary overhead that they have room to cry anyway.Can't support global business on one hand and then hate the efficiencies and lower prices it gives consumers on the other. Well, you can if you are a business owner with a poor idea of how to survive in the markets. this is fragrance anyway, it's the CHEAP gateway into luxury brands, and has been for decades. Making it cheaper does not matter, this stuff is largely synthetic and reproduceable on the industrial scale to begin with.

  48. #48

    Default Re: L'Oreal - Ruthless Dirty Tricks

    Quote Originally Posted by tensor9 View Post
    Exactly.

    Look, it is perfectly reasonable for a company to protect its brand in terms of controlling distribution for the sake of limiting counterfeit sales. This helps both the company and its customer. I get that. But once a company has sold its products to authorized wholesalers, the deal is done. The manufacturer has its money, the wholesaler has the product. As long as the wholesaler sells the product within its specified shelf life, then I see no problem. If the company wants to recall a perfectly good product for essentially no reason at all, only to destroy it, I'm sorry but this is out of the bounds of reason. Destroying goods that could go to use for some possibility of slightly higher future profits only makes sense to someone steeped in capitalist ideology.

    I realize that companies may have some legitimate need to control distribution, but there are bounds of reason. Arguing the legality of the matter isn't very convincing considering the companies essentially wrote the laws from which they benefit.
    These were pretty much my thoughts also.

  49. #49

    Default Re: L'Oreal - Ruthless Dirty Tricks

    ..............
    Last edited by DuNezDeBuzier; 13th August 2014 at 01:46 PM.
    Simplex Sigillum Veri

  50. #50

    Default Re: L'Oreal - Ruthless Dirty Tricks

    Quote Originally Posted by Awakening950 View Post
    Corporate monster companies work against the free market because in most cases they can't compete in a free market. It's a losing battle in the long run but that never stops them from trying. One of the indicators that you live in a retarded system is when you see governments or companies destroying perfectly usable products or commodities. There never seems to be a shortage of brainwashed corporate toadies that defend their insanity though.

    I could be wrong though, maybe destroying products is perfectly rational and sane in a system with limited resources.
    I thought paying a CEO millions of dollars a year was a guarantee that companies would be successful. LOL.

  51. #51

    Default Re: L'Oreal - Ruthless Dirty Tricks

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigsly View Post
    I thought paying a CEO millions of dollars a year was a guarantee that companies would be successful. LOL.
    L'Oreal is successful. Guess they got their money's worth.

  52. #52

    Default Re: L'Oreal - Ruthless Dirty Tricks

    Quote Originally Posted by HankHarvey View Post
    L'Oreal is successful. Guess they got their money's worth.
    In general, I tend towards thinking that we are living in a great age of what might be best called faux capitalism.

  53. #53

    Default Re: L'Oreal - Ruthless Dirty Tricks

    Quote Originally Posted by Bigsly View Post
    In general, I tend towards thinking that we are living in a great age of what might be best called faux capitalism.
    So make and sell your own perfumes and inject some real capitalism back into the world.

  54. #54

    Default Re: L'Oreal - Ruthless Dirty Tricks

    IMO big question to ask is (sorry for my language but I am angry):
    How the f**k it is possible that there are s**tloads of etailers who have s**tloads of fragrances which are NOT FAKES in stock. Who sold it to them? If they got their stock legally from manufacturer/distributor its perfectly fine if they sell their stock with 10% profit instead of 300%.
    TOP 3 hot weather:

    1. Gucci Pour Homme II
    2. Lalique Encre Noire
    3. Creed Aventus


    TOP 3 cold weather:

    1. L'Instant de Guerlain Pour Homme Extreme
    2. Chanel Coromandel
    3. Dior Homme

  55. #55

    Default Re: L'Oreal - Ruthless Dirty Tricks

    Quote Originally Posted by HankHarvey View Post
    So make and sell your own perfumes and inject some real capitalism back into the world.
    I'm not going to explain what Awekening950 was arguing. If he would like to do that, more power to him! If not, I suggest reading some books about the economic history of the USA. If you do, make sure you pay close attention to the Sherman Act of 1890 and the Clayton Act of 1914.

  56. #56

    Default Re: L'Oreal - Ruthless Dirty Tricks

    Bottom line is that the corporations don't want their product to be seen as 'cheap' (in terms of actual production costs it usually is). Perfume must have the cachet of a 'luxury' good at high prices - it actually makes it more marketable rather than less, believe it or not. To this end they will move heaven and earth to see that prices at all sales points are kept inflated and don't drop. The moment you can get something at a heavy discount they reckon their brand takes a knock.
    Me, I'm all for blowing up this ridiculous state of affairs.

  57. #57
    vita odorifera
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    Default Re: L'Oreal - Ruthless Dirty Tricks

    As an accountant in public practice i have come to realise that there will never be a total (Utopian?) meeting of minds between value-maximising consumers and market-share/Profit-maximising businesses. Sentiments, morals and personal beliefs deriving from them do not count for much in most of business (regardless of the marketing blurbs) and in the strict interpretation and application of the law. I love a good bargain but if i were a grey market trader i would only hope not to be in the sights of businesses guarding their market-share jealously, knowing i cannot wish their actions and motives away.
    ointments and perfume delight the heart....

    #BBOG!

  58. #58

    Default Re: L'Oreal - Ruthless Dirty Tricks

    Quote Originally Posted by DuNezDeBuzier View Post
    Ruthless dirty tricks? I don't think so. Sounds like they're working within the system in the interest of its owners (which very well could be me with my retirement money in various domestic/international funds).

    L'Oreal has rights and they'll do more business in places that honor and protect those rights. It has every right to distribute Alien to authorized retailers in Germany and monitor for msrp at 95. It also has every right to distribute Alien to authorized retailers in the far east, for example, and monitor for msrp at any price it wishes. No doubt, significant price differentials create grey market opportunities for the less scrupulous and e-commerce exacerbates the problem. Thus, it has grown harder and harder for business to maintain control over the marketing of its product. Now, in Germany, such grey market goods in all likelihood, are now deemed as counterfeit by the justice system. In this manner, L'Oreal probably can have these grey market goods effectively confiscated and destroyed. Seems the pendulum has swung back in favor of the manufacturer, as the burden seems no longer upon the manufacturer to determine which of the authorized distributors has breached his contract. Rather, the burden seems now squarely upon the online grey market sellers to ensure they are duly authorized to sell what they are selling or suffer the consequences. That pressure seems reasonable to me regardless if Alien won't be found so cheap any longer. If you don't understand it and it bothers you so much simply boycott L'Oreal. I think it was said before but unless you're willing to buy at their authorized asking price they don't want you as a customer anyway.
    Fortunately, the SCOTUS disagreed in Kirtsaeng v. John Wiley & Sons. The ridiculous notion that international trade can be used to drive supplier prices down, but then governments are forced to step in and protect a false image of value for retail of such commoditized goods is just in opposition to the economic sense of trade, which is not a zero sum game. Being headquartered in France, the majority of US investors, and a completely insignificant amount of labor gets anything from their share price. Allowing them economic profits in the long run through a shady protection scheme means consumers also get no economic benefit from the economies of scale and scope. Loreal Group apparently had a 12.88% NPM in 2013, so I see zero reason as a consumer to care about the grey market, as that benefits me and isn't hurting them compared to so many other industries with much, much lower margins.

  59. #59

    Default Re: L'Oreal - Ruthless Dirty Tricks

    Quote Originally Posted by david View Post
    There is no set price. This is not an oil cartel. It is a free market. There are only "recommended" retail price guidelines. No set price.
    This is correct. The other day I had a discussion with a saleswoman in a niche brick-and-mortar store who told me perfumes had fixed prices
    and the perfumes sold online were fakes. I proved that she was wrong, and she had to apologise. This is why I do not like anymore to buy in physical stores because I do not want to be told lies.

  60. #60

    Default Re: L'Oreal - Ruthless Dirty Tricks

    Quote Originally Posted by DMA View Post
    Fixed pricing exists. Any brand can state in there contract with the retailer at what price the product must be sold for. They also can and do state whether that product is allowed to be sold in a sale at a reduced rate.

    This is why the very high end never has sales of anything. Try walking into an official creed or xerjoff stockist and purchasing one of there bottles in the new year sale, it wont happen because the brand does not allow it to happen. Even normal brands will have restrictions set in there contracts, less limiting than high end brands but they will exist.You may be able to get 10 euros off dior homme sport in the new year sale though, but that will only be if the brand allows the retailer to do so in the first place. they may not want there product being seen as in a sale, or cheap, or inferior.
    In Germany we do not have fixed prices for perfume. If I want to buy, let's say, a Chanel perfume and step into the Chanel boutique, I will not get a price deduction. If I compare the prices for the same perfume online, they do vary, and I can choose the lowest price.

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