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  1. #31

    Default Re: Sandalwood essential for beard oil

    I'm about to place another order for some essentials to try

    Any suggestions or input as to which frankincense to use? I want to try it, as it's often in commercial beard oils, but the descriptions of these are all very similar.


    Frankincense Frereana - Organic

    Frankincense, Oman

    Frankincense, Oman - Rare

    Frankincense, Somalia

    -and- rosemary:

    Rosemary ct Cineole

    Rosemary ct Verbenone (in stock soon)

  2. #32

    Default Re: Sandalwood essential for beard oil (and other beard oil suggestions)

    Also curious if anyone has tried oakmoss absolute. According to this page it has to be VERY diluted. But, the description of the scent sounds very appealing.

    http://www.edenbotanicals.com/produc...-absolute.html

    Earthy-rich notes of moss, with slight undertones of wood and pine with excellent tenacity. Reminiscent of a walk in an old forest.

  3. #33

    Default Re: Sandalwood essential for beard oil

    Quote Originally Posted by DrSmellThis View Post
    Alpha ionone is a constituent of sandalwood...
    Did not know this... is there a reference you can remember?

  4. #34

    Default Re: Sandalwood essential for beard oil (and other beard oil suggestions)

    I have never heard that alpha Ionone is found in Sandalwood. I think if it is found there it has been added.

  5. #35

    Default Re: Sandalwood essential for beard oil (and other beard oil suggestions)

    alpha-ionone is in Lebanon cedarwood and if I remember correctly also in Atlas cadarwood.

  6. #36

    Default Re: Sandalwood essential for beard oil

    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade View Post
    Did not know this... is there a reference you can remember?
    I'll try to look it up, but pretty sure I got it from a GC-MS, one of the more thorough ones with a long list of chemicals.

  7. #37

    Default Re: Sandalwood essential for beard oil (and other beard oil suggestions)

    Is alpha-ionone and alpha-irone the same thing, with different spellings/names, or different molecules?

  8. #38

    Default Re: Sandalwood essential for beard oil (and other beard oil suggestions)

    Quote Originally Posted by islearom View Post
    Is alpha-ionone and alpha-irone the same thing, with different spellings/names, or different molecules?
    Different molecules.

  9. #39

    Default Re: Sandalwood essential for beard oil (and other beard oil suggestions)

    Quote Originally Posted by David Ruskin View Post
    I have never heard that alpha Ionone is found in Sandalwood. I think if it is found there it has been added.
    Perhaps it was beta ionone that was remembered; that one has turned up ( http://www.researchgate.net/publicat...andalwood_tree _ )

  10. #40

    Default Re: Sandalwood essential for beard oil (and other beard oil suggestions)

    I wasn't able to open the article so cannot be sure.

  11. #41

    Default Re: Sandalwood essential for beard oil (and other beard oil suggestions)

    Whilst it is impossible to prove the absence of something; none of the papers I have read mention the presence of Ionone in Sandalwood Oil. If there is some there, then it will be there at damn-all percent as the vast majority of chemicals is made up of Santalols, and Santalenes.

  12. #42
    Paul Kiler
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    Default Re: Sandalwood essential for beard oil (and other beard oil suggestions)

    Sandalwood Givco sure smells like it's got ionones in it...

    PK
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  13. #43

    Default Re: Sandalwood essential for beard oil

    Quote Originally Posted by SoBearded View Post
    I'm about to place another order for some essentials to try

    Any suggestions or input as to which frankincense to use? I want to try it, as it's often in commercial beard oils, but the descriptions of these are all very similar.


    Frankincense Frereana - Organic

    Frankincense, Oman

    Frankincense, Oman - Rare

    Frankincense, Somalia

    -and- rosemary:

    Rosemary ct Cineole

    Rosemary ct Verbenone (in stock soon)
    I can't help you with the different types of frankincense but the best rosemary oil comes from the verbenone chemotype. It has an aroma much more like the fresh plant and it is the best type for cosmetic purposes.

  14. #44

    Default Re: Sandalwood essential for beard oil (and other beard oil suggestions)

    Quote Originally Posted by David Ruskin View Post
    Whilst it is impossible to prove the absence of something; none of the papers I have read mention the presence of Ionone in Sandalwood Oil. If there is some there, then it will be there at damn-all percent as the vast majority of chemicals is made up of Santalols, and Santalenes.
    Unfortunate that the link didn't work; possibly the free full text is members only although I'd thought it was available to everyone.

    In any case the GC agrees with you: what is reported for beta-ionone is "trace," while quantitation of other compounds went down as low as 0.06%. So by trace I'd guess they did indeed mean trace.

  15. #45

    Default Re: Sandalwood essential for beard oil (and other beard oil suggestions)

    The link works for me, but it only shows the abstract.

  16. #46

    Default Re: Sandalwood essential for beard oil (and other beard oil suggestions)

    I guess one has to sign up (it's free.) I had mistakenly thought that on clicking further on the "full text" picture of the journal cover, it would work for everyone but apparently that was wrong.

  17. #47

    Default Re: Sandalwood essential for beard oil (and other beard oil suggestions)

    Paul very kindly sent me the full article. That's the first time I have ever seen evidence for the presence of Ionone in Sandalwood Oil. You learn something new every day; and I'm sure that the trace amount found will make a huge difference to the odour.

  18. #48

    Default Re: Sandalwood essential for beard oil (and other beard oil suggestions)

    I tried signing up for access to full texts at the ResearchGate site in the past, but was refused as they require members to have had articles that have been published (in scientific journals and such, I believe). Bill, what did you use as a reference for published material, as per their requirements?

  19. #49

    Default Re: Sandalwood essential for beard oil (and other beard oil suggestions)

    I don't recall that I had to do so, but if I did it would have been papers I was coauthor on as a grad student.

    If I had remembered that then I would have realized the link would prove useless, but I just didn't. Just remembered it as being free.
    Last edited by Bill Roberts; 22nd August 2014 at 06:38 PM.

  20. #50
    Paul Kiler
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    Default Re: Sandalwood essential for beard oil (and other beard oil suggestions)

    I think you can easily sign up for Researchgate if you have an educational email address, like ending in .edu

    That's certainly how My wife got me on, it's her membership, not mine.

    PK
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  21. #51

    Default Re: Sandalwood essential for beard oil (and other beard oil suggestions)

    The perfumery product is sandalwood oil, not absolute. The oil has a much higher proportion of santalol, and maybe the ionone is present in oil in even smaller quantities than in the absolute, or is absent?

  22. #52

    Default Re: Sandalwood essential for beard oil (and other beard oil suggestions)

    It's definitely true that one GC/MS may find things that another did not, for example from the sample being different.

    The above was of sandalwood oil from a particular tree at the Indian Institute of Technology. No alpha ionone was found in this example; I can't now find an example where it was but that doesn't mean it cannot have been found. The amount of beta ionone was probably less than 1 ppt; myself I'm sure I couldn't tell the difference between formulas where one has 1 ppt beta ionone and another does not.

  23. #53

    Default Re: Sandalwood essential for beard oil (and other beard oil suggestions)

    Sorry, things are hectic at present, and I havent done the research I wanted to for this thread. Thanks to others who have continued the discussion without me and found articles.

    I was actually surprised to hear about beta ionone, because I remember specifically it being the alpha. I had assumed it was common knowledge, just due to my own lack of knowledge about the chemistry of aroma compared to many others involved in perfuming.

    This is going further out on the limb, but what the heck -- my general impression at the time was that it was not an insignificant amount, though certainly not among the major constituents either. I believe I even once calculated how much ionone to use in a sandal perfume based on that, but never made the perfume. So I didn't think it was less than 1/1000 of the concentrate. Just a wild guess at remembering, maybe it was about 5/1000? Please don't quote me on that, as I could well be mistaken -- just think of it as something to wonder about. I wish I could remember more. Sorry. I did just try Googling it several times to no avail.

    I also saw there was alpha, beta and methyl ionones in tobacco, and both alpha and beta in blackberry. Those both surprised me a little bit too, as regards ionones.
    Last edited by DrSmellThis; 23rd August 2014 at 07:31 AM.

  24. #54

    Default Re: Sandalwood essential for beard oil (and other beard oil suggestions)

    Quote Originally Posted by arion View Post
    The perfumery product is sandalwood oil, not absolute. The oil has a much higher proportion of santalol, and maybe the ionone is present in oil in even smaller quantities than in the absolute, or is absent?
    Or maybe it was just an artefact, and not really there at all.

  25. #55

    Default Re: Sandalwood essential for beard oil (and other beard oil suggestions)

    I’s vey possible. I expect that distilled oil will differ in composition from an extract (absolute), the thing those guys analyzed. At the one hand, if b-ionone is or not an artefact of the experimental procedure, at the reported concentration it is of no importance. At the other hand, I will interpret traces of phenols in sandalwood oil, not reported from the absolute, as a ‘certificate of authenticity’ even if they are extraction artefacts. Yet, much more important, there are many possible errors close to the detection threshold of any device, so that I would not jump to conclusions about antibacterial properties, or generalize to sandalwood as a medicine, but wait for confirmation, replication, etc.

  26. #56

    Default Re: Sandalwood essential for beard oil (and other beard oil suggestions)

    Quote Originally Posted by DrSmellThis View Post
    I was actually surprised to hear about beta ionone, because I remember specifically it being the alpha. I had assumed it was common knowledge, just due to my own lack of knowledge about the chemistry of aroma compared to many others involved in perfuming.

    This is going further out on the limb, but what the heck -- my general impression at the time was that it was not an insignificant amount, though certainly not among the major constituents either. I believe I even once calculated how much ionone to use in a sandal perfume based on that, but never made the perfume. So I didn't think it was less than 1/1000 of the concentrate. Just a wild guess at remembering, maybe it was about 5/1000? Please don't quote me on that, as I could well be mistaken -- just think of it as something to wonder about. I wish I could remember more. Sorry. I did just try Googling it several times to no avail.
    A really important detail, so easy to miss and it certainly happens to me, is what the source was. There are GC/MS papers authored in Asian countries (probably elsewhere as well, but particularly common here) which use a commercial source which they assume to be authentic and unspiked but they did not prove to be.

    An example I recently read was J Health Res 27 2 2013, from which one might take jasmine sambac oil to contain 9.65% benzyl propionate.

    But they bought the oil commercially.

    It's supposed to be a serious paper on the effects of inhalation of jasmine oil on brain wave activities and emotions, but they could not even take the trouble to obtain an authentic sample. All too common unfortunately.

    As the alpha ionone paper cannot be found at least at the moment, it strikes me as more likely that the authors of that paper were similarly careless than that you misremembered.
    Last edited by Bill Roberts; 23rd August 2014 at 03:55 PM.

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