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  1. #1
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    Question Male Underarm Sweat Accord

    Hi guys, I'm working on a male underarm sweat accord. I guess cuminic aldehyde is a good place to start. Do you guys know of any other materials I could use?
    Cheers!

  2. #2
    Paul Kiler
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    Default Re: Male Underarm Sweat Accord

    Aldron. Smells just like "Sweaty Man".

    PK
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
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    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  3. #3

    Default Re: Male Underarm Sweat Accord

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post
    Aldron. Smells just like "Sweaty Man".

    PK
    Aldron is quite the material, isn't it?

  4. #4
    Paul Kiler
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    Default Re: Male Underarm Sweat Accord

    Yes, to Aldron.

    As for Cuminic aldehyde, OK, I can see it, but I'd also see regular cumin EO too, to fill it out.
    And you can buy part of the kilo of Cuminadlehyde that I bought at Perfumer Supply House.
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  5. #5

    Default Re: Male Underarm Sweat Accord

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post
    Yes, to Aldron.

    As for Cuminic aldehyde, OK, I can see it, but I'd also see regular cumin EO too, to fill it out.
    And you can buy part of the kilo of Cuminadlehyde that I bought at Perfumer Supply House.
    I actually just bought about 6 or so items from Perfumer Supply House that would fit this criteria! Cuminaldehyde is great, but dilute dilute dilute!

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Male Underarm Sweat Accord

    Thank you guys. I'd love to share buys with you, but I'm quite far away =P
    Deadidol, what are those other materials?
    Cheers!

  7. #7

    Default Re: Male Underarm Sweat Accord

    Quote Originally Posted by zmiyashiro View Post
    Deadidol, what are those other materials?
    Cheers!
    Animalis is a nice, sweet musky thing.
    Cuminaldehyde
    Indalorome could go down that path I suppose
    Shangralide is an interesting one, too

    These are more general musky things that I picked alongside Aldron.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Male Underarm Sweat Accord

    Quote Originally Posted by deadidol View Post
    Animalis is a nice, sweet musky thing.
    Cuminaldehyde
    Indalorome could go down that path I suppose
    Shangralide is an interesting one, too

    These are more general musky things that I picked alongside Aldron.
    Vertfix coeur is an obvious one.

  9. #9
    Paul Kiler
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    Default Re: Male Underarm Sweat Accord

    Quote Originally Posted by deadidol View Post
    I actually just bought about 6 or so items from Perfumer Supply House that would fit this criteria! Cuminaldehyde is great, but dilute dilute dilute!

    That's why I only bottled them (for her) in 1 dram vials. There's no point in using them neat. You'll need to dilute cuminaldhyde to at least 1%, maybe even more, to 0.1% or even 0.01%. It's not quite as strong as a Pyrazine, but it's close.

    PK
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  10. #10
    Paul Kiler
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    Default Re: Male Underarm Sweat Accord

    My Wife always says that Vetiver smells like three week old unwashed village people. I don't agree with her, but that might have some use.

    And the Synarome Animalis base has a few versions. I don't think that PSH has the one that I'll speak about now, but the one I am thinking about smells like when you give a hug to a homeless guy who has been out in the sun and not bathed for a few weeks. Sweat, salt, oily hair, wow, it's really rather repugnant if you ask me, esp at full strength.

    PK
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  11. #11

    Default Re: Male Underarm Sweat Accord

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post
    That's why I only bottled them (for her) in 1 dram vials. There's no point in using them neat. You'll need to dilute cuminaldhyde to at least 1%, maybe even more, to 0.1% or even 0.01%. It's not quite as strong as a Pyrazine, but it's close.

    PK
    I have it at 1% right now and it's still blasting my head off. It's very good, though. Very evocative stuff, and I could see a variety of uses for it—especially when creating scents that have an "environment" kind of feel. Something like Masque's Montecristo for example.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Male Underarm Sweat Accord

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post
    And the Synarome Animalis base has a few versions. I don't think that PSH has the one that I'll speak about now, but the one I am thinking about smells like when you give a hug to a homeless guy who has been out in the sun and not bathed for a few weeks. Sweat, salt, oily hair, wow, it's really rather repugnant if you ask me, esp at full strength.
    PK
    The PSH Animalis is a little more sweet to my nose—a bit like what you get in Kiehl's musk. Slightly floral, a tad civet-y.

  13. #13
    Paul Kiler
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    Default Re: Male Underarm Sweat Accord

    Yes, it's a different version of the Animalis Base... has a different formula.

    PK
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  14. #14

    Default Re: Male Underarm Sweat Accord

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post
    My Wife always says that Vetiver smells like three week old unwashed village people. I don't agree with her, but that might have some use.

    And the Synarome Animalis base has a few versions. I don't think that PSH has the one that I'll speak about now, but the one I am thinking about smells like when you give a hug to a homeless guy who has been out in the sun and not bathed for a few weeks. Sweat, salt, oily hair, wow, it's really rather repugnant if you ask me, esp at full strength.

    PK
    Yes, vetiver can be underarm sweat. Tobacco too can play a part. Same logic as vertofix coeur, same "family of notes". Cumin notes, as was mentioned. Animalis too. Andrane too. Micro doses of valerian or iso-valeric as a secondary note.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Male Underarm Sweat Accord

    Something onion-y?

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Male Underarm Sweat Accord

    I was thinking more of a musky cummin or something like that

  17. #17

    Default Re: Male Underarm Sweat Accord

    Quote Originally Posted by zmiyashiro View Post
    I was thinking more of a musky cummin or something like that
    I also like to have notes of sandal, balsams, ambers, and patchouli for underarms, musks too, as those things make for the pleasant aspects of it and keep it from being too rancid. Stay away from cloying things, jasmines, citruses. On top you can have traces of camphors and the like that won't turn sour and yet will give it the diffusiveness that underarms have, that masculine aromatic diffusiveness, for lack of a better term..

    Clove, costus.

    But yeah, of course a trace of cumin. Make sure you dilute it, or it will be hopeless. Cumin is extremely difficult to have success with if you aren't used to it, and then people mistakenly conclude that "I hate this stuff."

    The following is an interesting cumin/sweat note, but I don't know whether it is available to the public:

    http://www.thegoodscentscompany.com/data/rw1037741.html

    Summer savory is another option, for a nice leather effect that would be able to help "hold" the underarm smell. it's strong to stand up to the stink as well. I'm wondering about isobutyl quinoline too with that.

    But don't ignore vertofix, as that is completely a no brainer, very useful, pleasant, and very obviously a warm underarm note. It needs help during drydown, though.

    Obviously civet, or almost any other animal product can have a role.

    A trace of buchu for the sulfuric note is worth trying. I think we do sweat a lot of sulphur.

    Trace of carnation? That's the least complicated floral note I can think of. Rose and jasmine can get cloying, too thick in the "midrange",
    Last edited by DrSmellThis; 12th August 2014 at 04:20 AM.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Male Underarm Sweat Accord

    I don't think that there is a single generic Male Sweat Accord. The underarm smell depends on so many things; the age of the male, how long the sweat has been there, the health of the male, his diet, his physical activity etc. Many materials already mentioned that would work. I would also add Karenal, Ambrocenide, and Skatole.
    Last edited by David Ruskin; 12th August 2014 at 05:12 PM.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Male Underarm Sweat Accord

    Certain grapefruit type accords smell like armpits to me. Also sharp green notes and matierals like labienoxime give off this connection too.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Male Underarm Sweat Accord

    Sandaxol reminds me of skin, so it might be useful and give some body..
    And Clary (especially abs.) is said to be kinda sweaty, but my sweat doesn't usually smell THAT sweet

  21. #21

    Default Re: Male Underarm Sweat Accord

    Passifloran smells exactly like stale armpit. Even at a 0.01% dilution.....

    Are you looking for a fresh sweat aroma or an oxidized sweat aroma?

  22. #22

    Default Re: Male Underarm Sweat Accord

    Certainly underarm sweat has an ammonia note, when not fresh, but I'd also certainly not want that in my perfume! Unless you just want to be abstract with your creativity and not care about wearability..

  23. #23
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    Default Re: Male Underarm Sweat Accord

    Definitely sweat is different in every person, but there is a "standard" sort of male sweat. I'm not looking for dirty, unwashed and stranger-to-the-bath armit smell, but more of an after-gym or after-sex male armit smell.
    Sweat from other parts of the body are different, since the male armpit has lots of hair, poor ventilation and heat concentration.
    My goal is to get to that particular smell to add it in a very small proportion to a fragrance, to get an animalic undertone headed towards a "human male" direction instead of a civet, a beaver or a deer.
    I really like animalic undertones in unlikely scents, but I think I'd enjoy a scent much more if it had "humanic" traces instead of animalic ones.

    Since I've started to create fragrances just some months ago, I'm looking for materials that I can easily get.
    So far, my best approximation was cumminic aldehyde + ambrettia + cetalox + oakmoss
    I'ts pretty close, but it smells more of a female armpit (meaning with no hair, less rancid and more skin than sweat) and now I need to recreate male sweat.

  24. #24

    Default Re: Male Underarm Sweat Accord

    Quote Originally Posted by zmiyashiro View Post
    So far, my best approximation was cumminic aldehyde + ambrettia + cetalox + oakmoss
    I'ts pretty close, but it smells more of a female armpit (meaning with no hair, less rancid and more skin than sweat) and now I need to recreate male sweat.
    Thank you for sharing your finding!

  25. #25

    Default Re: Male Underarm Sweat Accord

    The standard malodour used to evaluate deodorant fragrances for their ability to mask bad smells is Iso Valeric Acid, which smells just like sweaty feet.

  26. #26

    Default Re: Male Underarm Sweat Accord

    Isovaleric acid is also the “pimary odorant” in Amoore’s sweaty primary odor family. It’s not an important contributor to the armpit sweat smell as was supposed in the past.

    With regard to “an after-gym … armpit smell”, from Martin et al., (2010) (at http://www.nature.com/jid/journal/v1...id2009254a.pdf)
    “The main contributors to axillary odor are (i) unsaturated or hydroxylated branched fatty acids with (E)-3-methyl-2-hexenoic acid (3M2H) and 3-hydroxy-3-methyl-hexanoic acid (HMHA) as key components, (ii) sulfanylalkanols, particularly 3-methyl-3-sulfanylhexan-1-ol (3M3SH) /…/, and (iii) the odoriferous steroids, 5a-androst-16-en-3-one and 5a-androst-16-en-3a-ol ...”. See also Preti & Leyden (2010) at http://www.nature.com/jid/journal/v1...id2009396a.pdf.

    These compounds may be commercially available, but unaffordable. For cheaper substitutes there are many suggestions in this thread, e.g., cumin oil for 3M2H and HMHA, onion extract for 3M3SH, traces of javanol, timberol, musk ketone, etc.

    The quest for a "standard" sort of male sweat smell seems to me problematic because from what I have seen there is no “male specific armpit smell”.
    First, although Zhou et al., (2014) at http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.cub.2014.03.035 claims that androstadienone (AND) signals “male” to females, to my knowledge the single published quantitative study regarding armpit sweat steroids (Gower et al., (1994) at http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8142319) shows no evidence of sex differences.
    Second, inter-individual variability seems so large that not only did it override intersex variability, but makes average values or other “standards” meaningless.

  27. #27

    Default Re: Male Underarm Sweat Accord

    Since I've been thinking about a similar use, I'll ask this - I don't really need to do much to smell like a sweaty male. Why would I want to further amplify this aspect in a perfume, in a way which doesn't communicate my own individual pheromone signature (assuming such thing exists)? Or are you looking to add it to smells women would wear because they would like it?
    You can just wipe your underarms and tincture it, and keep recharging till you get to where you want to. Or go to an extreme and do what they do with billy goat hair..

  28. #28

    Default Re: Male Underarm Sweat Accord

    zmiyashiro, now I realize that maybe I misunderstood the question. Since there are / were (?) on the market colognes with aliphatic acids and steroids, like AndronTM by Jovan, maybe the question refers to a perfume “standard” for the “male armpit smell” accord, something like a basic chypre or fougere accord? If so, I don’t know what accords composed the noses from Jovan. Nevertheless, I don’t think that those alleged pheromones work, because products like Chanel 5 and Axe were not replaced by Andron  - the proof is in the pudding and market share!

    Nizan, I asked such questions by myself, and came to the conclusion that many people believe that “pheromones” may attract partners and/or intimidate competitors. I believe that papers like Zhou et al. (2014) are examples of bad science and that commercialization of human pheromones is a fraud. But then, if zmiyashiro experiments with sweaty scents and the final accord works for him, good for him; if it works for others, not sell? If it didn’t work, he may learn how isovaleric acid can ruin the most beautiful composition and the meaning of “flattening” with regard to a scent.

  29. #29
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    Default Re: Male Underarm Sweat Accord

    I don't intend to put pheromones into perfumes.
    First of all, pheromones aren't percieved by the olfatory system, but by a different system. And second, pheromones for humans may only be produced by humas, And I don't intend to do any human armpit EO... =P
    What i'm looking for is to add a "humanic" (as a parallel to "animalic") undertone to a fragance.
    We generally tend to qualify animalic notes as "sexy" or "sexual", yet, this are smells that correspond to a different species. Why would I consider sexy an underlying note of a deer secretion and not a human after-sex secretion?
    See my point?
    I'm getting into philosophy of perfumes, hahaha

  30. #30
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    Default Re: Male Underarm Sweat Accord

    I don't intend to put pheromones into perfumes.
    First of all, pheromones aren't percieved by the olfatory system, but by a different system. And second, pheromones for humans may only be produced by humas, And I don't intend to do any human armpit EO... =P
    What i'm looking for is to add a "humanic" (as a parallel to "animalic") undertone to a fragance.
    We generally tend to qualify animalic notes as "sexy" or "sexual", yet, this are smells that correspond to a different species. Why would I consider sexy an underlying note of a deer secretion and not a human after-sex secretion?
    See my point?
    I'm getting into philosophy of perfumes, hahaha

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