Code of Conduct
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 56
  1. #1

    Default Musk Ketone Replacer

    Does anyone know what is used in the formulation of Musk Ketone Replacer? Chris, I see you have some for sale. In your opinion , cost aside, if you were to replace Musk Ketone in a formula, would you use this replacer or Muscenone? Also which musk would give better performance to the fragrance (i.e diffusion, longevity, etc.)?

    - BAGreat

  2. #2

    Default Re: Musk Ketone Replacer

    All I could find was the patent for Ketonex M. I don't understand a word of it though so no idea if it answers your question.

    https://www.google.com/patents/WO201...ed=0CBsQ6AEwAA
    The PONK club - gymnosium for perfumers (NOTE:- New club matters on hold whilst I care for my mum)

    Twitter - @PonkClub for regular twitter updates

    My Tincture list

    A perfumed life - Tinctures, perfumes, cordials, wines and ingredients

  3. #3

    Default Re: Musk Ketone Replacer

    Why do you need a replacer?

  4. #4

    Default Re: Musk Ketone Replacer

    Mumsy the paper you showed is to do with the manufacture of a polymer called Ketonex;nothing to do with the nitromusk called Musk Ketone.

    Nizan, some folk are reluctant to use Musk Ketone, because usually there will be some Musk Xylene present, and Musk Xylene has been banned.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Musk Ketone Replacer

    Ooops. Silly old me. I thought I'd been clever in looking it up from another angle. I think I'll steer clear of aromachem discussions until I know what I'm talking about...... it all sails right over my head until I get better at them.

    I'll stick with me naturals......
    The PONK club - gymnosium for perfumers (NOTE:- New club matters on hold whilst I care for my mum)

    Twitter - @PonkClub for regular twitter updates

    My Tincture list

    A perfumed life - Tinctures, perfumes, cordials, wines and ingredients

  6. #6

    Default Re: Musk Ketone Replacer

    Quote Originally Posted by BAGreat View Post
    Does anyone know what is used in the formulation of Musk Ketone Replacer? Chris, I see you have some for sale. In your opinion , cost aside, if you were to replace Musk Ketone in a formula, would you use this replacer or Muscenone? Also which musk would give better performance to the fragrance (i.e diffusion, longevity, etc.)?

    - BAGreat
    OK, so first on the components: as usual with these proprietary mixtures the full formula is not revealed and Iíve not had it analysed, however I can see from the SDS that it has the following:
    Tonalid 10-25%
    Galaxolide 10-25%
    Benzyl benzoate 1-10%
    (Iím using the trade names for the musks because they are familiar - clearly as IFF donít make Tonalid it will not be that brand).

    Ignoring cost Muscenone is the better musk in terms of diffusion and longevity certainly, but if you need to replace Musk Ketone in a vintage formula, this is a better bet.

    Both, btw, are much easier to use than Musk Ketone because they are liquid and Musk Ketone itself is a pain to dissolve, so quite apart from the regulatory considerations thatís a reason to use the replacer instead.
    ďBattle cries and champagne just in time for sunrise.
    ― David Bowie
    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    Fine fragrances hand made in The Shire
    Quality perfume making ingredients
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume
    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Iím happy to quote: if you want free advice, thatís what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog for more info about perfumes and perfumery.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Musk Ketone Replacer

    Quote Originally Posted by mumsy View Post
    Ooops. Silly old me. I thought I'd been clever in looking it up from another angle. I think I'll steer clear of aromachem discussions until I know what I'm talking about...... it all sails right over my head until I get better at them.

    I'll stick with me naturals......
    I don't like this culture of being afraid of making mistakes or beings afraid of looking like a fool. That's a pretty poor way to learn and grow, in my opinion, and we're born into it without being given a choice. You have a choice!

  8. #8

    Default Re: Musk Ketone Replacer

    I'm a chemist and have made bigger chemical mistakes than that one, I assure you!

    Not that this is remotely like the biggest, but as a perfume relevant one, I actually chose not to participate in the l-muscone group buy because reportedly it was not that drastically better than regular racemic (equal mix of stereoisomers) muscone, and I was not impressed with the Muscone (Iso), or at least so she calls it, I had from Perfumer's Apprentice.

    By which nomenclature I assumed was muscone, mix of L and R isomers.

    But, d'oh, in fact it was a totally different (and to me, worthless) compound, isomuscone. The term iso is never so far as I know used to mean mix of isomers. Why I assumed that I cannot imagine. Just plain dumb. And it cost me the l-muscone.

    As Arnold liked to say in Last Action Hero, "Big mistake."

    Last edited by Bill Roberts; 19th November 2014 at 04:17 PM.

  9. #9
    Dependent superfluousPastry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Oc8EZcvGG8
    Posts
    2,417

    Default Re: Musk Ketone Replacer

    Agreed, I appreciate that you attempted to ad to the discussion as much as I appreciated David correcting your mistake. It takes a bunch of individuals to make a community...even chronic off topic contributors like me.
    It is true that fish stink. It is also true that the river is
    beautiful. But the river would be beautiful despite the fish. What
    is noxious remains so.

    That is not to say that sh*t is not useful when buried in the wheat
    field. Bread made from the field tastes sweet, wine from the arbor
    sweetest. All things serve a purpose, but that is no reason to
    glorify what is abominable. A man must still watch where he walks
    and keep his sandals clean.
    c.21 of the Egyptian Book of the Dead, Trans: Normandi Ellis

  10. #10

    Default Re: Musk Ketone Replacer

    If no-one corrects mistakes then we would be a sorry bunch indeed. I appreciate it actually.

    When I look up ketonex on the good scents guide, then musk replacer comes up. I think that's where it came in. Then I looked up the patent for Ketonex to try and find what was in it. Sneaky but erroneous. It would have been quite clever had it been right. Lol
    The PONK club - gymnosium for perfumers (NOTE:- New club matters on hold whilst I care for my mum)

    Twitter - @PonkClub for regular twitter updates

    My Tincture list

    A perfumed life - Tinctures, perfumes, cordials, wines and ingredients

  11. #11

    Default Re: Musk Ketone Replacer

    Quote Originally Posted by Nizan View Post
    I don't like this culture of being afraid of making mistakes or beings afraid of looking like a fool. That's a pretty poor way to learn and grow, in my opinion, and we're born into it without being given a choice. You have a choice!
    You learn by your mistakes. It has never struck me that mumsy is afraid of anything.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Musk Ketone Replacer

    I don't like this culture of being afraid to point out when someone has made a mistake. I appreciate it when someone does this to me. This DIY forum is about learning together, and sharing our love of Perfumery. Part of that learning together is to have one person, who knows something, tell those who don't. Part of that learning is to have mistakes (gently) pointed out.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Musk Ketone Replacer

    Quote Originally Posted by David Ruskin View Post
    You learn by your mistakes. It has never struck me that mumsy is afraid of anything.
    Shhh..... Wasps and hornets actually......
    The PONK club - gymnosium for perfumers (NOTE:- New club matters on hold whilst I care for my mum)

    Twitter - @PonkClub for regular twitter updates

    My Tincture list

    A perfumed life - Tinctures, perfumes, cordials, wines and ingredients

  14. #14

    Default Re: Musk Ketone Replacer

    I guess I misread the tone of "I'll stick with me naturals......". I thought you were going to stop posting on aroma chemical related posts. David - I think I often misread the tones of your posts (and thus over-react)..


    Anyhow, I thought that all Musk Ketone that is sold now is free of Musk Xylene - in that case I don't see why would people be reluctant to use it. But I guess that's not the case..
    How come there's no Musk Xylene replacer?
    Last edited by Nizan; 19th November 2014 at 08:31 PM.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Musk Ketone Replacer

    Quote Originally Posted by Nizan View Post
    I guess I misread the tone of "I'll stick with me naturals......". I thought you were going to stop posting on aroma chemical related posts. David - I think I often misread the tones of your posts (and thus over-react)..
    David is always teasing me on that aspect and I play to it. It is just good humoured jesting (especially when things are miss-spelled in that accent).
    The PONK club - gymnosium for perfumers (NOTE:- New club matters on hold whilst I care for my mum)

    Twitter - @PonkClub for regular twitter updates

    My Tincture list

    A perfumed life - Tinctures, perfumes, cordials, wines and ingredients

  16. #16

    Default Re: Musk Ketone Replacer

    Which macrocyclic musk(s), if any, can be used to replace musk ketone? I think both tonalid and galaxolide are bio-accumulative.

  17. #17
    Dependent superfluousPastry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Oc8EZcvGG8
    Posts
    2,417

    Default Re: Musk Ketone Replacer

    ^^^From my brief research I know that Romandolide is one.

    edit: Oops. Romandolide is not a macrocyclic musk (its alicyclic), it is biodegradable but I'm not sure if its bioaccumulative.

    Ok, I will leave this stuff to the chemists! I tried though.
    Last edited by superfluousPastry; 20th November 2014 at 12:23 AM. Reason: trying to be helpful
    It is true that fish stink. It is also true that the river is
    beautiful. But the river would be beautiful despite the fish. What
    is noxious remains so.

    That is not to say that sh*t is not useful when buried in the wheat
    field. Bread made from the field tastes sweet, wine from the arbor
    sweetest. All things serve a purpose, but that is no reason to
    glorify what is abominable. A man must still watch where he walks
    and keep his sandals clean.
    c.21 of the Egyptian Book of the Dead, Trans: Normandi Ellis

  18. #18

    Default Re: Musk Ketone Replacer

    Personally I don't find Romandolide to really be like musk ketone, and among the musks that I have (I think everything offered by PA and CP, plus muscone, muscenone, and Exaltenone) I'd think of none as replacers for musk ketone.

    That said, if forced to substitute, depending on the application Romandolide might do well I imagine.
    Last edited by Bill Roberts; 20th November 2014 at 12:21 AM.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Musk Ketone Replacer

    Ha, speaking of correcting mistakes, Romandolide is an Alicyclic or Linear musk. The best Macrocyclic musk to replace Musk Ketone is Nirvanolide. Since it is unobtainable, Muscenone is the next best choice.

  20. #20
    Dependent superfluousPastry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Oc8EZcvGG8
    Posts
    2,417

    Default Re: Musk Ketone Replacer

    Quote Originally Posted by BAGreat View Post
    Ha, speaking of correcting mistakes, Romandolide is an Alicyclic or Linear musk. .
    Yes, I corrected my own mistake 17 minutes before you posted. Thanks though
    It is true that fish stink. It is also true that the river is
    beautiful. But the river would be beautiful despite the fish. What
    is noxious remains so.

    That is not to say that sh*t is not useful when buried in the wheat
    field. Bread made from the field tastes sweet, wine from the arbor
    sweetest. All things serve a purpose, but that is no reason to
    glorify what is abominable. A man must still watch where he walks
    and keep his sandals clean.
    c.21 of the Egyptian Book of the Dead, Trans: Normandi Ellis

  21. #21

    Default Re: Musk Ketone Replacer

    Perceptions of course will vary, but also to me muscenone has little closeness to musk ketone.

    It might be that muscone plus muscenone could be closer than either alone. (I have however never used only those two in combination with each other; I'm saying it from putting them together in my head and from having had them in combination with at least one other further musk.)
    Last edited by Bill Roberts; 20th November 2014 at 03:58 AM.

  22. #22

    Default Re: Musk Ketone Replacer

    Quote Originally Posted by superfluousPastry View Post
    Yes, I corrected my own mistake 17 minutes before you posted. Thanks though
    :-)

  23. #23

    Default Re: Musk Ketone Replacer

    Hmm, I saw something called silvanone at creatingperfume, it is a macrocyclic musk that, according to the description, has "aspects of nitromusk". Does anyone have experience with this one? I might order some next time to experiment with...

  24. #24

    Default Re: Musk Ketone Replacer

    Quote Originally Posted by ariodant View Post
    Which macrocyclic musk(s), if any, can be used to replace musk ketone? I think both tonalid and galaxolide are bio-accumulative.
    I donít think any of the macrocyclics is really equivalent, but Velvione is the closest: and a very lovely product in its own right, albeit vastly more expensive.

    On the subject of bio-accumulative I think itís better to say Ďnot biodegradableí. There is no evidence that these materials accumulate through the food-chain in the way that, for example, DDT does. Nor is there any evidence that these materials do any harm: a good comparison I heard from another perfumer recently was to think of them like Roman pottery: they hang about in the environment for a very long time, but they are so un-reactive that they donít really have any effect there.

    Having said all that, if you want to phase out polycyclic musks for whatever reason there are practical alternatives: Romandolide (which is biodegradable) is very close in smell to Galaxolide and also a nice mobile liquid so itís easier to use too. It is however about 20 times more expensive when buying by the tonne and itís for that reason that laundry products continue to use polycyclics. If you want 50-100ml though, you can buy either from me at the same price, so on a small scale itís an easy substitution.

    Tonalid isnít so easy to substitute: cosmone is meant to be a good alternative but thatís so expensive by comparison that you could only contemplate that substitution where cost is no object.
    ďBattle cries and champagne just in time for sunrise.
    ― David Bowie
    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    Fine fragrances hand made in The Shire
    Quality perfume making ingredients
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume
    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Iím happy to quote: if you want free advice, thatís what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog for more info about perfumes and perfumery.

  25. #25

    Default Re: Musk Ketone Replacer

    Cosmone is supposed to be a substitute for Tonalid?

  26. #26

    Default Re: Musk Ketone Replacer

    Quote Originally Posted by Nizan View Post
    Cosmone is supposed to be a substitute for Tonalid?
    Yes, OK, I did appear to suggest it could be used as a simple replacement didnít I?

    If you wanted to replace Tonalid with macrocyclics youíd be more likely to use a similar amount of ethylene brassylate plus about 10 times less of Cosmone. But that would still be a much more expensive combination than Tonalid.
    ďBattle cries and champagne just in time for sunrise.
    ― David Bowie
    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    Fine fragrances hand made in The Shire
    Quality perfume making ingredients
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume
    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Iím happy to quote: if you want free advice, thatís what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog for more info about perfumes and perfumery.

  27. #27

    Default Re: Musk Ketone Replacer

    Quote Originally Posted by ariodant View Post
    I think both tonalid and galaxolide are bio-accumulative.
    In addition to Chris's post, here is a recent study on environmental impact of musks and which ones they tagged as 'bioaccumulative', where the definition seems to be:
    "their persistence in the environment, and hazardous potential to ecosystems even at low concentrations. The number of studies in literature describing their worldwide presence in several environmental matrices is growing, and many of them indicate that the techniques employed for their safe removal tend to be ineffective. This is the case of conventional activated sludge treatment plants (WWTPs), where considerable loads of synthetic musks enter mainly through domestic sewage."
    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...01479714004988

    The tagged bioaccumulative musks are
    2-amino musk ketone; 2-amino musk xylene; 4-amino musk xylene; celestolide; versalide; phantolide; tonalide; traseolide; cashmeran; galaxolide; galaxolidone; musk ambrette; muskonate; musk ketone; musk moskene; musk tibetene; ethylene brassylate; musk xylene; orbitone.

    Of course this is just 1 study but I thought it was worth mentioning.
    @SomethingSmelly

  28. #28

    Default Re: Musk Ketone Replacer

    Quote Originally Posted by Irina View Post
    In addition to Chris's post, here is a recent study on environmental impact of musks and which ones they tagged as 'bioaccumulative', where the definition seems to be:
    "their persistence in the environment, and hazardous potential to ecosystems even at low concentrations. The number of studies in literature describing their worldwide presence in several environmental matrices is growing, and many of them indicate that the techniques employed for their safe removal tend to be ineffective. This is the case of conventional activated sludge treatment plants (WWTPs), where considerable loads of synthetic musks enter mainly through domestic sewage."
    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...01479714004988

    The tagged bioaccumulative musks are
    2-amino musk ketone; 2-amino musk xylene; 4-amino musk xylene; celestolide; versalide; phantolide; tonalide; traseolide; cashmeran; galaxolide; galaxolidone; musk ambrette; muskonate; musk ketone; musk moskene; musk tibetene; ethylene brassylate; musk xylene; orbitone.

    Of course this is just 1 study but I thought it was worth mentioning.
    The trouble with these sorts of study is exactly that they lump the musks all together as though they were of equivalent impact, which they certainly are not. Musk Xylene has been banned throughout the EU because it has been clearly demonstrated to have ďhazardous potential to ecosystems even at low concentrationsĒ. Galaxolide has not because it has not.

    This study even tags the macrocyclic and biodegradable ethylene brassylate on the same list: the sort of thing that leads the uninformed to imagine all synthetic musks are poisonous when it gets further mis-translated by interest groups with a particular agenda to push.

    What this study actually shows is that these things are present and persistent in the environment and donít get removed in conventional sewage treatments - both true of course and well supported by other work - the assumption of harm is just that, an assumption of the studyís authors: they have not actually tested that much less demonstrated it.

    They also donít specify the sense in which they are using the term bioaccumulative - by most definitions it means something that will become more concentrated in living things when itís present in their environment (as DDT does) and further that this will be harmful (as it is with DDT) - there is no evidence this happens with polycyclic musks. There is lots of evidence they persist in the environment and end up in living things, but not that they are accumulated in living things and do harm: the difference is enormously important from the perspective of public policy.

    For us, making small amounts of fine fragrance the whole topic is fairly academic though, because the huge tonnages of polycyclic musks being used in laundry products vastly overtop anything we might do, though I absolutely accept that Gandhiís paradox that ďWhatever you do will be insignificant, but it is very important that you do it" does also apply in this case and everyone must act according to their own conscience, which is why itís useful to explore the issues.
    ďBattle cries and champagne just in time for sunrise.
    ― David Bowie
    Chris Bartlett
    Perfumes from the edge . . .

    Fine fragrances hand made in The Shire
    Quality perfume making ingredients
    Twitter: @PellWallPerfume
    If you are looking for a perfumery consultation Iím happy to quote: if you want free advice, thatís what these forums are for
    You can also join my blog for more info about perfumes and perfumery.

  29. #29

    Default Re: Musk Ketone Replacer

    Hi Chris, good points, even if they may go beyond the purposes of DIY Sometimes I like to share a bit of my mad scientist's world, so anyone not interested, please skip my post

    Anyways this publication is not a study, but a review article and the full text is rather informative and full of nuance, not at all fear-mongering or swooshing all data together. It provides some much needed insight in the reality today based on longitudinal studies (vital when talking about an environmental impact, where you need to look at the consequences over a long period of time) in which and how several musks are (not) broken down by regular sewage systems (a way to measure environmental impact, biodegradability and bioaccumulation). The jury is definitely not out on this one, there is much to be improved.

    The DIY practical consequence is that the bigger the biodegradability of an aromatic raw material, the bigger the chance you'll encounter stability, solubility and maceration issues.

    Also I agree with your last words as imho a sense of perspective (including environmental impact) when working with perfumery raw materials, no matter how small of a scale, is a nice way to learn about the wonders of life (everything is chemistry) together with a good dose of scientific skepticism.
    @SomethingSmelly

  30. #30

    Default Re: Musk Ketone Replacer

    Is there even a single sentence providing evidence of harm caused by musk ketone at levels ever demonstrated to have accumulated within an organism from environmental exposure, or to an individual from application? I don't wish to buy the article if there is not a single piece of evidence within it of harm specifically from musk ketone, then myself I don't find it to be potentially decision-changing to the question of using musk ketone.

    To my knowledge, I'd do more for the environment by deciding not to buy just about any optional-to-own item from China than from discontinuing use of musk ketone.
    Last edited by Bill Roberts; 20th November 2014 at 05:55 PM.




Similar Threads

  1. Musk ketone and DPG
    By Bullonaio in forum Fragrance DIY
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 1st November 2014, 08:40 AM
  2. Musk xylene/musk ketone
    By James Peterson in forum Fragrance DIY
    Replies: 50
    Last Post: 3rd October 2014, 07:55 AM
  3. Musk ketone
    By Milhaus in forum Fragrance DIY
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 2nd June 2014, 06:37 PM
  4. Re: Musk Ketone
    By Stephan in forum Fragrance DIY
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 22nd December 2011, 10:47 PM
  5. Musk Ketone
    By Stephan in forum Male Fragrance Discussion
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 22nd December 2011, 02:16 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  



Loving perfume on the Internet since 2000