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  1. #1

    Default Group buy for GC/MS

    I saw a recent thread that people were interested in a group buy for GC/MS testing through Perfumers apprentice. Please reply with fragrances you would like to test and if we can reach an agreement on certain fragrances to test we can go forward with getting some results

  2. #2
    Basenotes Plus
    pkiler's Avatar
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    Default Re: Group buy for GC/MS

    In my past thoughts, I've called this, the GC Club.

    We also need to have accurate expectations too, Linda isn't the person to explicate percentages of essential oils or other naturals in a perfume. That is up to us.
    She's great for a quantitative GC with known materials, and then we still have to play detective to figure out which EO's and what % they are.
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Group buy for GC/MS

    I'd totally be down for this type of thing. I learned a great deal by reconstructing a fragrance GCMS and would love to do it again.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Group buy for GC/MS

    Does anyone know how much fragrance she needs to perform the test?

    I would be interested in seeing the results for the following fragrances:
    Frederic malle musc ravaguer and carnal flower
    Armani Prive Vetiver babylone and jasmin d éclat
    Coco Madamoiselle
    Ford Neroli Portofino
    Mugler Angel
    Profumum acqua di sale
    Terre d hermes
    Tauer l'air du desert
    Amouage honour
    and many more

    these just interest me at the moment

  5. #5

    Default Re: Group buy for GC/MS

    Im in....now which fragrance? id personally would like to do a creed.....an older one perhaps.
    Zanshin

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Group buy for GC/MS

    Fragrances I'd like to see:
    Van Cleef and Arpels First EDP
    Fendi (The original Fendi by Fendi for women)
    Coco
    Egoitse or Bois Des Iles
    Coty Chypre
    Patou's 1000

    I would be ok with:
    Frederic malle musc ravaguer
    Coco Madamoiselle
    Ford Neroli Portofino
    Amouage honour
    Terre d hermes

    I don't like carnal flower, Tauer l'air du desert, or Mugler Angel

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Group buy for GC/MS

    I will be interested in this too. I considered even doing this on my own, but with people more knowledgeable than me, it'd be both more fun and a better learning experience.

    I am down with any classics from Dior, Guerlain, Chanel, Hermes, YSL etc
    but specifically would be interested in
    Terre d'Hermes
    Terry Mugler Angel
    Frederic Malle En Passant
    Diorissimo

    I'd think it'd be better to start with a fragrance that has the least number of naturals to make the exercise more tractable.Perhaps after we collectively figure out one perfume, we can would be able to tackle more difficult ones. One step at a time.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Group buy for GC/MS

    Don't worry about Coco Mademoiselle.

    Top of my list is Patou Pour Homme, I think.

    I've had enough Tuberose things done that I don't need a GC of Carnal Flower anymore, even though it a top line favorite.
    (You should smell my TNT)


    PK
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Group buy for GC/MS

    I would also be interested in this!
    Here is a short list of some Id like:

    Terre d'Hermes
    Creed Aventus
    Creed Royal Oud
    Mont Blanc Legend
    Egoiste

  10. #10

    Default Re: Group buy for GC/MS

    Two I'd like to see:

    Vintage Antilope

    Patou Pour Homme

    If anyone has any off-the-cuff thoughts on vintage Antilope's composition, I'd be interested in that too.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Group buy for GC/MS

    Talk to the hand - Fellow Vermonter here.

    For the GC analysis, you need a lot of calibration samples or published data about residence times. I want to do reverse fragrance engineering for my next job.

    Anyone want to hire a Chem E? Maybe some consulting here and there?

  12. #12

    Default Re: Group buy for GC/MS

    I'm also in, would love to see GC-MS for the following:

    - Terre d'Hermes
    - Tauer L'Air du Desert/Incense Extreme
    - Light Blue
    - Anything by Frederic Malle
    Last edited by Boye1; 19th January 2015 at 04:42 PM.

  13. #13
    Super Member Javiero's Avatar
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    Default Re: Group buy for GC/MS

    Count me in, any of the suggested fragrances can be very instructive...

  14. #14

    Default Re: Group buy for GC/MS

    Quote Originally Posted by Chanel1 View Post
    Talk to the hand - Fellow Vermonter here.

    For the GC analysis, you need a lot of calibration samples or published data about residence times. I want to do reverse fragrance engineering for my next job.

    Anyone want to hire a Chem E? Maybe some consulting here and there?
    Chemical engineering is a different field than analytical chemistry. Doing GC in fragrance doesn't require either but does require having an adequate library, which is expensive. It's further complicated if it's necessary to try to deduce possible natural contributors, which again isn't either chemical engineering or analytical chemistry, but more a matter of sufficient knowledge of perfumery and analysis of perfumes.

    Probably a company that is in the business of making reverse-engineered copies, or as is more common probably simply producing internal information, already has the means or connections to do so, but I suppose it's possible that one could want to hire an additional person to learn to do it for them. They might not be reading a DIY forum though, as a guess.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Group buy for GC/MS

    From a GC/MS analysis you will receive a list of chemical names and the percentage of each chemical. How accurate that list will be depends on how accurate the machines used are, and how knowledgeable the analyst is how worked on the analysis. Some chemicals in your fragrance will not be detected because they will be below the threshold that the GC can see. Ideally, for a thorough analysis of a fragrance, a sniffing GC technique should also be used. Thus technique involves a Perfumer smelling through a portal as each chemical is separated by GC. Ones nose is far more sensitive at detecting the presence of a chemical, although not so good at measuring how much is present. The Perfumer is then able to identify each trace chemical, and others by smell, and by Retention Time.

    The list of chemicals will give you no indication as to the source of that chemical. For example, Linalol could be added as such, or be part of Lavender oil, Bergamot oil, Clary Sage oil, or many others. To do a good job, a good understanding of the constituents of Essential oils is required. To match a fragrance using GC/MS analysis a sample of the original fragrance must be used as a reference; and even then it can be a long and frustrating business. From personal experience I know this only too well!

  16. #16

    Default Re: Group buy for GC/MS

    Could be in. Depending on the price, obviously...
    Very good idea to get at least the key ingredients list and understand how the key accord of the perfume is built.
    And as many perfumes are almost exclusively made of synthetics, it will give a good idea of the materials.

    My selection :
    - Fahrenheit (Dior)
    - Déclaration (Cartier)
    - Chloé (Chloé)

    I wonder if the composition of Fahrenheit, Chanel No 5, and so on are not already available somewhere... ?

  17. #17

    Default Re: Group buy for GC/MS

    Quote Originally Posted by Boye1 View Post
    I'm also in, would love to see GC-MS for the following:

    - Terre d'Hermes
    - Tauer L'Air du Desert/Incense Extreme
    - Light Blue
    - Anything by Frederic Malle
    Psst. Light Blue is on Yahoo's perfumemaking files. It's in polish language but i guess it's easy to decode most of chemical names :-)) It also has the analysis of common ingredients used in counterfeits lol
    Last edited by GuerlainJedi; 25th January 2015 at 09:57 PM.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Group buy for GC/MS

    Quote Originally Posted by GuerlainJedi View Post
    Psst. Light Blue is on Yahoo's perfumemaking files. It's in polish language but i guess it's easy to decode most of chemical names :-)) It also has the analysis of common ingredients used in counterfeits lol
    Wow that's amazing, thanks for the tip!

  19. #19

    Default Re: Group buy for GC/MS

    They are always good for learning, however they don't tell as much as you think they might.
    The PONK club - gymnosium for perfumers (NOTE:- All club matters still on hold whilst I care for my dad now.)

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  20. #20
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    Default Re: Group buy for GC/MS

    As someone who used to reverse engineer flavors for Seagrams (Wine cooler flavors mostly), I agree that it can be very frustrating but on the other hand, does provide maybe enough information to get started on the long journey of duplication. The GCMS result is therefore just a tool, another piece of the puzzle. Definitely agree with Bill that the accuracy of the GCMS library is key.

  21. #21
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    Default Re: Group buy for GC/MS

    One thing I've noticed with GC/MS results is that alcohol registers at low percentages, like 5%.
    So from that I just assumed all along that percentages for more volatile aroma chems were skewed, and a GC/MS report is more of just a list of what chems are mostly in a particular fragrance and at maybe approximate proportions. Which, as David mentions, leaves it up to the nose to fill in the gaps.
    Have I been correct in thinking so???

  22. #22

    Default Re: Group buy for GC/MS

    GC/MS is capable of being very accurate, where standards are used or the reference library is suitable and the instrumentation and methods used match up with the library.

  23. #23

    Default Re: Group buy for GC/MS

    I've re-created a few via GC/MS. What was probably most helpful was the detective work and research that went into analyzing the analysis itself. Now I know quite a bit more than I used to about the individual constituents of natural raw materials.

    David is certainly right about the long, frustrating process involved. At a certain point, I had to just start trusting my nose because the GC test only got me so far. What people say about synthetic fragrances is true in that they're much easier to analyze and re-create. On the other hand, perfumes with a great many naturals have the potential to be more of a learning experience.

    Another issue to bear in mind is that you are likely to encounter a few chemicals that are not readily available. Christine at perfumersupplyhouse.com has been helpful to me in acquiring some of those.

    Make sure the samples are fresh. You can't always trust online sellers of samples. For example, I've had a sample that smelled sour from oxidized C-12 MNA. In a case like that one, very little MNA (if any at all) would have registered in the analysis. Had any showed up, the percentage would have been misleading. When the percentages are wrong like that, you can only trust your nose.
    Last edited by ToddHuyett; 31st January 2015 at 11:58 PM.

  24. #24

    Default Re: Group buy for GC/MS

    To all those who are interested, my website is hosting group GC/MS analysis purchasing. You do not have to pay anything to use the service, but you do have to become a free member of the site. No, you do not have to abandon basenotes but we ask you to become a member so we can keep track of those who have paid and those who have not. This makes it safe for everyone. You may also, even at the last second if you wish, receive your money back if you decide to change your mind. This may only be done before the sample is sent out to Spectrix Labs for testing. The more people who join the site and participate, the less expense each analysis will be. If each analysis is cheap, we will be able to get sent them out faster and faster. It will eventually reach a point where a group of people all pay $1 and that will be able to cover it for the entire analysis! All this is just an idea without you guys supporting it. So come and join my website and start hosting your fragrance to be analyzed. You never know, you may have enough support to have your fragrance sent out by next week.

    http://www.perfumertalk.com/group-gc...is-purchasing/

  25. #25

    Default Re: Group buy for GC/MS

    Quote Originally Posted by Manuel View Post
    One thing I've noticed with GC/MS results is that alcohol registers at low percentages, like 5%.
    So from that I just assumed all along that percentages for more volatile aroma chems were skewed, and a GC/MS report is more of just a list of what chems are mostly in a particular fragrance and at maybe approximate proportions. Which, as David mentions, leaves it up to the nose to fill in the gaps.
    Have I been correct in thinking so???
    There isn't just one type of GC; there are many, and each type will be more sensitive to the presence of certain chemicals than others. All Gas Chromatographs separate a mixture of chemicals, and show that separation as a series of peaks. From the time of putting the mixture onto the GC column to the time taken for the specific peak to be shown (called the Retention time) gives an indication of what the chemical is (although it is often the case that several chemicals have a similar Retention time), and the size of the peak gives an indication of how much of that chemical is present. The order in which the chemicals emerge, and how sensitive the machine is in measuring the amount will vary depending upon all sorts of different reasons. Some set ups can ignore certain chemicals completely, whilst being highly sensitive to others. A good analyst with a thorough understanding of the particular set up will give a good analysis. By the way it is the MS part of the set up (Mass Spectroscopy) that tells you what the chemical is.

  26. #26
    Basenotes Member poe's Avatar
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    Default Re: Group buy for GC/MS

    A scent that has always bewitched me (and so many others) is "Feminite Du Bois" by Lutens/Shiseido...

    I continuously come back to it to sniff. If y'all are still talking GC/MS choices... I'd love to add it to the potentials....

    "Tam Dao" I would also really like to get a crack at. The EDT not the EDP. The sandalwood in the former is so well balanced (IMHO).

  27. #27

    Default Re: Group buy for GC/MS

    Please contact myself or PKiler for details of GC's which are being commissioned this week.

  28. #28
    Basenotes Member thomasbaldwin222's Avatar
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    Default Re: Group buy for GC/MS

    It would be awesome to get to take a look in to a creed bottle- I find Royal Mayfair very interesting.

  29. #29

    Default Re: Group buy for GC/MS

    I'm very interesting GC MS Pure Poison Christian Dior, Black Opium YSL and Narciso Narciso Rodriguez.

  30. #30

    Default Re: Group buy for GC/MS

    The www.perfumertalk.com website does not seem to work anymore. Out of curiosity- Does anyone know what happened to it?




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