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  1. #1

    Default Stickies are mainly gone, but please read this one

    I've ditched all the stickies apart from the one by Irina, which links to all the old stickies.

    In time, I would like to create a resource area, or something like that covering the basics.


    This thread is here as a place where you can discuss the direction of the FDIY forum.

    Would the forum benefit by being split into two? A section for members who are new to perfumery (much like Just Starting Out?)
    Is there a way to do splits here, without risk of people being ripped off?

    Whether you are new or have been making perfumery for years, If you have time to let me know this forum could be improved it would be appreciated

  2. #2

    Default Re: Stickies are mainly gone, but please read this one

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    I've ditched all the stickies apart from the one by Irina, which links to all the old stickies.

    In time, I would like to create a resource area, or something like that covering the basics.


    This thread is here as a place where you can discuss the direction of the FDIY forum.

    Would the forum benefit by being split into two? A section for members who are new to perfumery (much like Just Starting Out?)
    Is there a way to do splits here, without risk of people being ripped off?

    Whether you are new or have been making perfumery for years, If you have time to let me know this forum could be improved it would be appreciated
    Good to see the mess has finally been cleaned up! I think it's better this way.
    And it would be a nice idea to create a beginners section and an advanced section, but I guess moderaters will be more busy moving threads...

  3. #3

    Default Re: Stickies are mainly gone, but please read this one

    I think the tidying up of all the stickies is just right. Seems that most, if not all of the questions most often asked have been answered.

    Not sure how the DIY forum can be changed to its advantage. I always think "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"; but maybe some folk think the DIY forum is broke, personally I don't. I think if the DIY forum were to be split, there would be a great deal of repetition, and a great deal of people and subjects getting lost. As you can no doubt tell, I would prefer to keep the forum in its present form.
    Last edited by David Ruskin; 1st April 2015 at 03:49 PM.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Stickies are mainly gone, but please read this one

    I'm in agreement with David. To split the forum would create confusion.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Stickies are mainly gone, but please read this one

    Also agreed. I have been on forums that have a beginner's section divided out, and usually I think it doesn't work well.

    1) It's an extra task to have to go check two forums not one

    2) It can be hard to remember to go check a beginner's section as well as the main section, and

    3) Often a beginner's question can lead to insights from real experts useful to everyone that wouldn't have been posted anytime soon if not for the question. Beginner's questions often propel a forum.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Stickies are mainly gone, but please read this one

    I like the blend of total beginners and experts. Two areas would mean the enthusiastic learner would get ignored by default. If there was a way to highlight the stickies type of content, then that would be handy. Something like 'do not start until you have read this' in big bold letters right under the DIY title but everything necessary condensed into it.

    The problem with the 'refer to the stickies comment' was often a newb wouldn't know what a sticky was and that's why they hadn't.

    As for splits of ingredients. That is something that perhaps should be allowed within the context of a discussion as long as it wasn't deliberate marketing. It is an area that is a dangerous edge of a wedge but if there was a splits area within the DIY that operated something along the lines of the fragrances. I wouldn't see a problem with that. Maybe a DIY supplier thread by location may go there too.

    People like Chris are able to obtain ingredients that mere mortals are unable to, and a split in those sorts of cases is not a rip off but a rare opportunity to acquire something impossible. The envisaged difficulty will be a flood of unscrupulous grotty oil sales people potentially spoiling it for the good ones. An area for common sense and sensitivity perhaps.

    I'll be adding to this as I think of things..

    Many of the newbs are just hunting for something to make right now that smells nice. We are always directing them offsite to the PA, so maybe a formula section for beginner blending as a reference place would solve the two section aspect. A place that was a useful starter guide 'book' as opposed to a forum area.

    It could be a place where all the lists of what ingredients to purchase etc etc could be kept. What scales, and all the more common questions that have to be asked again and again because finding the answer is too hard before they are familiar with the forum layout.

    We could all help to build a draft of this reference section together to save you, Grant, from doing all the work. Not sure how but there'll be a way.
    Last edited by mumsy; 1st April 2015 at 03:48 PM.
    The PONK club - gymnosium for perfumers (NOTE:- New club matters on hold whilst I care for my mum)

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  7. #7

    Default Re: Stickies are mainly gone, but please read this one

    Quote Originally Posted by mumsy View Post
    I like the blend of total beginners and experts. Two areas would mean the enthusiastic learner would get ignored by default. If there was a way to highlight the stickies type of content, then that would be handy. Something like 'do not start until you have read this' in big bold letters right under the DIY title but everything necessary condensed into it.

    The problem with the 'refer to the stickies comment' was often a newb wouldn't know what a sticky was and that's why they hadn't.

    As for splits of ingredients. That is something that perhaps should be allowed within the context of a discussion as long as it wasn't deliberate marketing. It is an area that is a dangerous edge of a wedge but if there was a splits area within the DIY that operated something along the lines of the fragrances. I wouldn't see a problem with that. Maybe a DIY supplier thread by location may go there too.

    People like Chris are able to obtain ingredients that mere mortals are unable to, and a split in those sorts of cases is not a rip off but a rare opportunity to acquire something impossible. The envisaged difficulty will be a flood of unscrupulous grotty oil sales people potentially spoiling it for the good ones. An area for common sense and sensitivity perhaps.

    I'll be adding to this as I think of things..

    Many of the newbs are just hunting for something to make right now that smells nice. We are always directing them offsite to the PA, so maybe a formula section for beginner blending as a reference place would solve the two section aspect. A place that was a useful starter guide 'book' as opposed to a forum area.

    It could be a place where all the lists of what ingredients to purchase etc etc could be kept. What scales, and all the more common questions that have to be asked again and again because finding the answer is too hard before they are familiar with the forum layout.

    We could all help to build a draft of this reference section together to save you, Grant, from doing all the work. Not sure how but there'll be a way.
    Maybe that's a better idea indeed Mumsy!

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Stickies are mainly gone, but please read this one

    Since you are soliciting opinions, and everybody's got one...

    To me, "Community" is the ultimate goal.

    If something builds Community, then great. If it tears down Community, then I'd rather not.

    To me, Two groups is a divided Community, and I would say I'm not in favor of it.

    I am astounded that the place where I learned so much, the Yahoo Perfumemaking group that I now moderate over with (checking the count...) 2283 members has been so terribly inactive for several years now. But we had it so well outfitted and filled with files/formulas, until Yahoo discombobulated the group and it's files when it changed formatting...

    So for Basenotes to try to emulate the files type section, would be a bit of a project... but in the end, if successful, would be a good thing,.. but not easy, and still after the infrastructure is in place, would require large efforts to fill it, organize it, and maintain it.

    Lastly, If you now wish to enable splits of materials, without the same issues as before... and not leave it up to 3-4 people to do it everytime, sort of as trustees, or something, then it's sort of a thing to work out, in all it's glories and frailties. Trust has been the issue of course, and so when we so far have taken things into our own hands, and conducted these off BN, then those parties have built over time the trust necessary to conduct the split. The other issue that we've encountered with splits is that some members have had revenge acts done to them by some other suppliers, because of participating in splits that were done publicly. So on Yahoo, we went to doing splits privately anyway...

    Hence, when we had such drama here, I made my own group for conducting splits, really, for a number of issues and levels of complexity... that has worked out well.
    Hmm, but how to do it here on BN... maybe a self monitored DIY peer reviewed list of approved people who have gained enough trust to conduct a split...? And Anyone who wishes to conduct a split must use their real name in their profile to increase trust and transparency.

    That's what I can think of presently...

    PK
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Stickies are mainly gone, but please read this one

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Is there a way to do splits here, without risk of people being ripped off?
    As opinion I don't think the standard should be no risk, for one reason, because risk is never zero.

    It's great for a forum to be conscientious about avoiding setting up situations that obviously didn't have due thought and care.

    But the other extreme, of deciding for people that they just shouldn't have an option open to them to use their own judgment, is more than a want a forum deciding for me.

    If I enter into a split with a regular here, that I learned about here and communicated about here, on my own judgment based on my impression from the person's posts and time here, and it goes bad, the last thing I'd do was think Basenotes did me wrong. It would just be how things went. And better in life to have opportunities albeit with risk, then to have others decide I can only have a coddled zero-risk environment "protecting" me from making my own choices.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Stickies are mainly gone, but please read this one

    Is there a 'marking' or star rating system on the splits board? The sort of feedback number thing on ebay is what protects them from murky dealers, so maybe a trader label of some kind could be awarded after x no of successful deals or x amount of positive feedback or something like that. Then newbs would know who they can trust straight away and murky dealers could be ignored. No idea how that could work in technical terms on here.
    The PONK club - gymnosium for perfumers (NOTE:- New club matters on hold whilst I care for my mum)

    Twitter - @PonkClub for regular twitter updates

    My Tincture list

    A perfumed life - Tinctures, perfumes, cordials, wines and ingredients

  11. #11

    Default Re: Stickies are mainly gone, but please read this one

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    I've ditched all the stickies apart from the one by Irina, which links to all the old stickies.

    In time, I would like to create a resource area, or something like that covering the basics.


    This thread is here as a place where you can discuss the direction of the FDIY forum.

    Would the forum benefit by being split into two? A section for members who are new to perfumery (much like Just Starting Out?)
    Is there a way to do splits here, without risk of people being ripped off?

    Whether you are new or have been making perfumery for years, If you have time to let me know this forum could be improved it would be appreciated
    Hi Grant,

    Thank you for the clean-up, it's so much easier to see the latest thread without lots of scrolling down

    I agree with the members above: 1 subforum on the subject suffices.

    As for building a resources area: what are your own ideas?

    In my opinion the current format and software of the forum are less suitable for such a project. A dedicated area on the basenotes.net would make more sense. Like a formularium or interesting articles sorted around different subjects like 'GC/MS, 'headspace analysis', 'what is involved in starting a business', 'legislation & regulation' etc. You could ask active members here if they would like to write the articles.

    But if, for example, someone starts a thread named 'formularium' with only formulas or another topic with a beginners step by step guide, those can easily be added to the compilation sticky. It really depends on how interactive you would like the area to be, and how easily searchable. The biggest advantage of a forum format is the interaction through discussion. Which is also a disadvantage for a beginner: lots of side notes to read before people reach either a consensus or come to a relevant answer.

    As for the splits. In my experience there are 2 kinds:

    1. An established supplier (business) opens a topic to gauge interest in a pre-sale or pre-buy and then offers the smaller quantities on a safe secure website with clear terms & conditions that protect both supplier & customer. For example, Christine (PSH) does that, most recently:
    http://www.basenotes.net/threads/400...r-Supply-House
    The prices reflect overhead, business costs and profit, a business needs to earn.

    2. A (DIY) perfumer with or without a business licence offers to buy 1 kg of a specific material and offers to split it at cost with a very small margin for packaging materials and shipping costs. Very much like the splits done on the Basenote's marketplace. The seller does not make any profit whatsoever and does this because 1 kg is either too much for their own use or too cost-prohibitive. The transparency here is essential and the intent is clearly not profit oriented. The prices reflect that and are usually lower than what an established supplier offers.

    Type 2 splits are problematic. In my experience over the years in several groups, this type of buys rarely go smooth. They take a lot of time and patience (on both sides), there is no controlled clean decanting practice nor customer service and the chances for conflict are high. Also if done on a open platform, the sellers open themselves to the risk of being seen as a competitor for an established supplier and worst case scenario lose their network.

    In my opinion, option 1 would be a viable choice for Basenotes.

    I hope this helps and thank you for the great work!
    @SomethingSmelly

  12. #12

    Default Re: Stickies are mainly gone, but please read this one

    Thanks for all the feedback on this.

    So, in summary so far:

    No to separate 'new to perfumery' board
    Yes to the idea of a resources area. - need to work out best way of doing this
    Spilts - not sure as to consensus as yet.. Open to more thoughts...

    I'll chime back in on this later

  13. #13
    Super Member Wood and Tobacco's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stickies are mainly gone, but please read this one

    Guys, can we make the 'Free Fragrance Composition Software' thread a sticky?

    It's open source, completely free, and used by hundreds of people. Thanks!

  14. #14

    Default Re: Stickies are mainly gone, but please read this one

    Quote Originally Posted by Wood and Tobacco View Post
    Guys, can we make the 'Free Fragrance Composition Software' thread a sticky?

    It's open source, completely free, and used by hundreds of people. Thanks!
    Sorry W&T, I don't think that's a good idea. It's full of bugs, incomplete, inaccurate and personally I find it not user friendly for DIY purposes.
    @SomethingSmelly

  15. #15
    Super Member Wood and Tobacco's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stickies are mainly gone, but please read this one

    Ouch!

  16. #16

    Default Re: Stickies are mainly gone, but please read this one

    Quote Originally Posted by Wood and Tobacco View Post
    Ouch!
    Hugs! (I didn't intend to sound mean spirited. It's a great idea, but still needs lots of work, so imho too early to promote it to a sticky)
    @SomethingSmelly

  17. #17
    Super Member Wood and Tobacco's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stickies are mainly gone, but please read this one

    Hugs back!

  18. #18
    Super Member Wood and Tobacco's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stickies are mainly gone, but please read this one

    Just reporting another potential bug.. sometimes threads appear as read even if I have not read them..
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  19. #19
    Super Member Godmu's Avatar
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    Default Re: Stickies are mainly gone, but please read this one

    Quote Originally Posted by Wood and Tobacco View Post
    Just reporting another potential bug.. sometimes threads appear as read even if I have not read them..
    still an issue
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