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  1. #1

    Default Plan C: Not scrapping the Marketplace, but making it better instead

    After looking into Panjo a bit further, I don't think it is going to be suitable long term for the Marketplace. So going forward I have two options:


    0r

    • Build something custom that:
      1. allows a marketplace to continue but with less admin
      2. has deeper integration with the directory
      3. has an emphasis on using Paypal to take advantage of their buyer protection


    It looks like scrapping the marketplace isn't everyones favourite idea . So, if I was to build something custom – what features would you like as splitter, sellers, swappers and buyers?

    • Would you like something that matched up peoples wish lists and swap lists to suggest potential swappers?
    • Splitters, would you like a way of people having to pay into some sort of Escrow system when they commit to a split, and the funds be released when the split is full?
    • Sellers, would you be interested in selling decants again?



    I'm open to suggestions. If I'm going to keep the marketplace, lets make something that works bloody good, and at the same time has 99% less admin issues.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Plan C: Not scrapping the Marketplace, but making it better instead

    I was surprised how much people claimed they would miss it. It seems like necessary restrictions, such as minimum sizes for splits, makes a marketplace a better fit elsewhere, but I was moved by posters getting all nostalgic. I've only used it a couple times, but loyal users seem hooked.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Plan C: Not scrapping the Marketplace, but making it better instead

    Thanks chanel1.

    A lot of the hassle comes with unnecessary admin caused by the fact that a message board is not a good platform for selling things on. So I'm wondering what people think would make it better.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Plan C: Not scrapping the Marketplace, but making it better instead

    I like the format MUA used to have, where you listed each item and there was a want list and a for swap list (they didn't allow sales). I think a great feature would be if those who wanted a bottle disclosed what they were willing to spend, just as a seller had to specify a price. That way it creates a stock market type of effect, and prices would likely be lower or closer to "market value" due to competition. With swaps it's good to have country and country to ship fields that must be selected, because it's a huge waste of time to contact people to whom you can't ship (they don't all say where they are located).

    My concern with Paypal integration is that I wouldn't sell to someone with little or no feedback who gets Paypal's protection because I don't want to deal with a possible fake claim against me. if the person has plenty of all positive feedback then that's fine.
    Last edited by Bigsly; 20th June 2015 at 12:54 AM.

  5. #5
    Francois Blais's Avatar
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    Default Re: Plan C: Not scrapping the Marketplace, but making it better instead

    I don't have good feelings about Panjo either.

    Paypal (for those who agree to have a PP account; not everybody) is okay as long as you're not sending the money as a gift. (IOW, you must pay the fee)
    If you send the money as a gift, you're not protected anymore, AFAIK.

    I'm not sure I understand what's wrong with the current system.
    There's a feedback feature, and people must agree they use the board at their own risks.
    Ce message provient du Québec!

  6. #6

    Default Re: Plan C: Not scrapping the Marketplace, but making it better instead

    Selling decants would allow a splitter great flexibility in case one person drops out of a split. And the up-front escrow or other $$$ commitment for splits is good, but needs a mechanism to prevent fraud - perhaps splitters eligible for escrow must have X number of completed splits?

    Selling decants besides that, well, I'd like it.

    For the "potential swap" algorithm, it might be easier if directory integration allowed "notifications" when something on your want list became available on another's sale or swap lists.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Plan C: Not scrapping the Marketplace, but making it better instead

    So I am relatively new to fragrance and BN, but certainly not new to online selling, forums, etc. so hopefully my feedback will be of use. Obviously I don’t speak for everyone. Also sorry for the huge post, please don’t feel the need to read it all if you don’t want to.


    ===

    General Thoughts / Ideas:

    ===


    1. My #1 priority would be to keep the Marketplace, even if that means just leaving it as-is, with a sticky/disclaimer telling people if they have a problem they must deal with it through Paypal. I feel the sell/swap/split section of the site is just as essential as the forums. Maybe I just don’t like paying full retail for things, but I enjoy shopping and getting a deal from other people.

    2. On the note of Paypal, it is technically against their terms of service to pay for goods using the Gift option. If they wanted to they could shut down your account (for this reason, another forum that I visit which has a marketplace has a rule that sellers can not ask for gift or fees). I know people use it just to get a fair price for splits, but paypal’s resolution center only works for Goods, and if everyone pays with Goods then any scamming becomes the problem of Paypal and the two people involved, not Grant or the admins.

    3. Making BN Plus a requirement for selling or running a split would be fair. The other forum I visit has a required $30 “gold” membership if you want to sell, and even has higher tiers of membership (“platinum” “lifetime”) for people who want to donate more to helping to run the site. Many fragrances that we buy/sell/split here are expensive, and $30 for a year is really not a lot. The only possible issue I can see with this is a decrease in the amount of stuff for sale (i.e. would you want to pay $30 if you only had 3 cheapies to try to sell.)

    4. I don’t think swaps should require a BN Plus. It seems like these are more person-to-person, and shouldn’t require a subscription for basic swaps. If you do create a “match up” system, maybe that could be a perk of BN Plus?

    5. Escrow system would be nice, but how would it work with Paypal and would it be worth the time and effort to create? Most splitters seem to be very well-known and established, and I assume they use the current feedback system to check potential buyers before allowing them into the split. Do splits go bad often enough to make the escrow worth it? I am not a splitter and would be interested in more feedback, but it seems like this idea might be technically difficult due to people paying at different times, etc.

    6. I am all for selling decants, but perhaps in their own section as not to flood the marketplace (if that would be a problem, not really sure).



    ===

    New Marketplace:

    ===

    If I had a blank slate to create a new marketplace, I would consider the following criteria:
    - BN has a fantastic database of many, many perfumes
    - Each user can use this database to create a personal wardrobe of what they own/had/want
    - With this is mind, a new marketplace should aim for complete wardrobe integration

    On each for sale listing we would want the following information:
    - Name
    - Bottle Size
    - Percent Remaining
    - Photograph
    - Other Comments (i.e. “Tester, No Box, Batch Code XXXXXXX”
    - Asking price

    Now what I envision the ideal process to be when selling is this:

    1. I go to my wardrobe
    2. I select the fragrances under “Owned” that I want to sell using check boxes
    3. I click on a button called “List These Items for Sale”
    4. This brings me to a new screen where each fragrance I want to sell is shown, with text boxes next to it where I can enter information.
    5. For each fragrance, I enter the bottle size, approximate % remaining, comments, and maybe upload a photo in a space provided.
    6. I click “Create My Listing” and the system takes all the information I provided and creates a new thread with a standardized, easy to understand format that would be the same for everyone.
    7. If something sells, I can easily remove a fragrance on the same screen where I entered the info/uploaded photos. (This step is complicated and needs more work).

    I imagine buying would be the same, where you exchange paypal emails via message. Or maybe have everyone link their Paypal email to their BN account (eh) and then there would be a link in the thread that says “Buy Perfume_Name from user User_Name” and that could take you to a paypal cart with the asking price. Not sure how best offers would work, probably just via message.

    This turned out much longer than expected, but I am studying computer science/art and like to try to work on this kind of thing so there you go. Hopefully someone reads it.

  8. #8
    Basenotes Member Taskphorce01's Avatar
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    Default Re: Plan C: Not scrapping the Marketplace, but making it better instead

    I am also in agreeance with selling decants in the marketplace. The benefits FAR outweigh the negatives. We do it everywhere else...and I've never seen it as a big issue. Same rules should apply here as they do everywhere else decants are being sold....buy at your own risk (but in reality, very rarely do I ever hear of counterfeit, tampered, watered down, etc.....decants being raised an issue in the several groups that I already belong to.)
    Currently wearing: Aventus by Creed

  9. #9

    Default Re: Plan C: Not scrapping the Marketplace, but making it better instead

    I agree with allowing decant sales, but I also think it would be nice to have them in their own forum (as mentioned above). That would help avoid the confusion of having them all mixed in with bottles that are for sale.

    And on a side note, THANK YOU for optioning to Save the Marketplace!

  10. #10

    Default Re: Plan C: Not scrapping the Marketplace, but making it better instead

    A separate registration for the marketplace, including an agreement not to do the things that create administrative burden. Three strikes, you're out sort of thing. I'm brainstorming here.

    Partnering with an existing decant shop.

    Something should be done to make the market more fluid for people with huge collections to share decants and get a decent price and no hassle.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Plan C: Not scrapping the Marketplace, but making it better instead

    Being relatively new, can someone expalin the difference between a decant and a sample (that I see being sold ithe marketplace). I am just unsure how a decant differs from a split or sample that I already see out there.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Plan C: Not scrapping the Marketplace, but making it better instead

    Anything other than a factory sample is a decant and has been up to now banned from sale on Basenotes.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Plan C: Not scrapping the Marketplace, but making it better instead

    Quote Originally Posted by AndroiDad75 View Post
    Being relatively new, can someone expalin the difference between a decant and a sample (that I see being sold ithe marketplace). I am just unsure how a decant differs from a split or sample that I already see out there.
    It's mostly a matter of size. Up to 2 ml is a sample, 5 to 10 ml is a decant, and splits usually go 30 ml and up. The more expensive the scent the smaller the amounts can be, so a split for 5 ml isn't odd if it's a super-expensive scent.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Plan C: Not scrapping the Marketplace, but making it better instead

    Sorry to disagree my friend, but size has nothing to do with it.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Plan C: Not scrapping the Marketplace, but making it better instead

    Quote Originally Posted by stuigi View Post
    Sorry to disagree my friend, but size has nothing to do with it.
    That's just my sense in terms of the people I've dealt with - I'm almost always more interested in specifics than generalizing, but I think that a "newbie" will get an idea of what people usually mean when they say things like, "I can make a decant of it for you."

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Plan C: Not scrapping the Marketplace, but making it better instead

    Perhaps, but the site has until now banned for sale anything but factory samples and this thread is about the marketplace. That includes splits in other than the original bottle.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Plan C: Not scrapping the Marketplace, but making it better instead

    Sorry fellas if I started something. I just wasn't sure what Grant meant when he said Decants. We can get back to the marketplace discussion...

  18. #18

    Default Re: Plan C: Not scrapping the Marketplace, but making it better instead

    Quote Originally Posted by AndroiDad75 View Post
    Sorry fellas if I started something. I just wasn't sure what Grant meant when he said Decants. We can get back to the marketplace discussion...
    You'll get different responses from different people. As Stuigi said, with BN you can only sell official samples whereas on other sites you can sell just about any size and call it a decant, since it is decanted into a different container than what it originally came in.

  19. #19
    Dependent RedRaider430's Avatar
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    Default Re: Plan C: Not scrapping the Marketplace, but making it better instead

    Grant, would you mind telling us a little more about WHY you are ultimately responsible for what goes on in the marketplace? Because I didn't think you were.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Why can't you get some marketplace moderators / people to look after it?


    .....ultimately responsibility lies with me.

    .....and although I don't always have the time to spend hours going back and forth between two members, who both (for example) feel they've had a bad deal, -- it's not really a time issue in this case, it's more to do with additional responsibility and brain cycles being taken up by it.
    Grant, at the top of the Basenotes "Items for Sale" forum, it states, "Please remember, all transactions taking place on this site are done so entirely at your own risk."

    Are you saying you (or Moderators/Admins) PERSONALLY have been stepping in and "solving" sales problems between members? If so, then I had no idea you were doing something like that. You say the "responsibility lies with me," but is that legally the case, or just the way you feel? I, and I'm sure many others, don't understand why having "Please remember, all transactions taking place on this site are done so entirely at your own risk" can't just mean what it says. Are you legally responsible for the problems in the marketplace?

    Can you explain why, if people have problems with each other in a deal, that it can't just be between the members? You should have nothing to do with it.....according to the "use at your own risk" statement.
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  20. #20
    Basenotes Institution freewheelingvagabond's Avatar
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    Default Re: Plan C: Not scrapping the Marketplace, but making it better instead

    Grant, first of all thanks for your initiative.

    I would like to reiterate RedRaider430's point. Given the disclaimer(s) in the marketplace forums, I really do not see how you personally (or even Basenotes for that matter) can actually be responsible for deals gone wrong. Surely I am missing something.

    This might be rather Utopian, but I cannot imagine too many deals going bad here (as opposed to ebay), except for people backing out of splits.

    I don't personally see the need to have decant sales given whatever cons we might be having, since the swap section ensures adequate liquidity.

    Lastly, personally speaking, I would not mind it if marketplace listings are restricted to Basenotes Plus members only. Though from the point of view of profitability of Basenotes, one has to consider the pricing. Since Basenotes would charge a flat membership fee as opposed to other outlets which have a percentage based fee, only people with enough stuff to sale would consider Basenotes. This is without taking into account the other perks of being a Basenotes Plus member.

    Of course all of this is my personal take, but I just wanted to share it in case any of it is helpful.


    As always, thank you for all your efforts!

  21. #21
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    Default Re: Plan C: Not scrapping the Marketplace, but making it better instead

    I was about to contact the Canadian ambassador to the United Kingdom with my grievance !

    Quote Originally Posted by Chanel1 View Post
    I was surprised how much people claimed they would miss it...


    Quote Originally Posted by Francois Blais View Post
    ...
    I'm not sure I understand what's wrong with the current system.
    There's a feedback feature, and people must agree they use the board at their own risks.
    I agree. Maybe some tweaking would help, but overall it seems to be good. I have not read anything about scammers. If there are people ripping other people off, they need to be outed.
    Seeking: Bottles/decants : of Pomegranate Noir, Midnight in Paris EDP, Feeling Man, Essence of John Galliano, Azzaro pour Homme (vintage),...etc.

    Seeking decant/sample of Aramis Calligraphy Rose, Penhaligon's Esprit de Roi, PdE Ambre Russe, Jil Sander Feeling Man ....etc. I have samples to swap.

    More HERE
    Please PM me !

  22. #22
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    Default Re: Plan C: Not scrapping the Marketplace, but making it better instead

    Quote Originally Posted by RedRaider430 View Post
    Grant, would you mind telling us a little more about WHY you are ultimately responsible for what goes on in the marketplace? Because I didn't think you were.

    Grant, at the top of the Basenotes "Items for Sale" forum, it states, "Please remember, all transactions taking place on this site are done so entirely at your own risk."

    Are you saying you (or Moderators/Admins) PERSONALLY have been stepping in and "solving" sales problems between members? If so, then I had no idea you were doing something like that. You say the "responsibility lies with me," but is that legally the case, or just the way you feel? I, and I'm sure many others, don't understand why having "Please remember, all transactions taking place on this site are done so entirely at your own risk" can't just mean what it says. Are you legally responsible for the problems in the marketplace?

    Can you explain why, if people have problems with each other in a deal, that it can't just be between the members? You should have nothing to do with it.....according to the "use at your own risk" statement.
    I can't answer for Grant but I can give examples from the moderator side of issues we deal with. I have not experienced any outright scams, yet, but I am often contracted when sellers are late in shipping the bottle. When there is not prompt communication between seller and buyer there can be tension and it leads to complaints. There are decant buyers who worry about being sold a fake. None of us are professional sellers or buyers, so mishaps happens, and then accusations starts flying and tempers flare.

    These things can take hours to resolve, as you PM back and forth between the members involved. The disclaimer is one thing, but when members are in trouble I don't think it's acceptable to say, Hey, you knew this could happen, I'm not getting involved.

    And I can imagine that the really tough and complicated cases go directly to Grant, taking a lot of his time and energy.
    Last edited by furrypine; 20th June 2015 at 08:51 AM.
    No baiting/trolling. No insults. No politics. Read the Code of Conduct.

  23. #23

    Default Re: Plan C: Not scrapping the Marketplace, but making it better instead

    You only need to look at some of the threads that get closed here to know how quickly things can get out of hand. I can only imagine what actually goes on in the sales problems behind the scenes.

    I think we need guys like Remik and co. to state their opinions. These guys are the experienced splitters and should have some common sense working knowledge based on experience for establishing an alternative sales/splits forum.
    MY STEALTHY FREEDOM.

  24. #24
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    Default Re: Plan C: Not scrapping the Marketplace, but making it better instead

    Quote Originally Posted by Surfacing View Post
    I agree. Maybe some tweaking would help, but overall it seems to be good. I have not read anything about scammers. If there are people ripping other people off, they need to be outed.
    And what if they are not a scammer, they have just been late in shipping the bottle? But before we find out that it's all a misunderstanding we have used a lot of time getting in contact with the buyer and seller, trying to resolve the issue.
    No baiting/trolling. No insults. No politics. Read the Code of Conduct.

  25. #25
    Dependent RedRaider430's Avatar
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    Default Re: Plan C: Not scrapping the Marketplace, but making it better instead

    Thanks for the examples, furrypine.

    Yes, I can definitely see what you mean. I just never would have dreamed such problems would be so frequent that the negatives would outweigh the positives of the marketplace.

    But when you think of the staggering number of deals going on within the marketplace at any point in time, I can see how even a small percentage of "problem" transactions can become overwhelming in a hurry.
    Basenotes sales: Tiffany for Men Concen, de Bachmakov, Atelier Vetiver Fatal, Tiffany for Men mini, 17 Cuba Paris frags, L'Essence de Cerruti, Reyane Insurrection, numerous popular SAMPLES! http://www.basenotes.net/threads/419...ples-amp-More!

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  26. #26

    Default Re: Plan C: Not scrapping the Marketplace, but making it better instead

    Quote Originally Posted by RedRaider430 View Post
    But when you think of the staggering number of deals going on within the marketplace at any point in time, I can see how even a small percentage of "problem" transactions can become overwhelming in a hurry.
    It's amazing how quickly situations (in general) compound and/or explode, and even the tiniest interactions suck up all kinds of mental energy. Even when it's running smoothly, the marketplace can be a nagging burden as things can go pear shaped at the drop of a hat, and what Grant's after is to reduce some of this kind of burden by making the site more homeostatic. If there's a way to host it off-site but have people come through Basenotes to get to it, that would be a good option. I've been trying to think about other ways it could be handled as well, and it does seem like a good moment to build something new from the ground up, but it's not quite clear as to how that would go.
    Last edited by deadidol; 20th June 2015 at 08:50 AM.

  27. #27

    Default Re: Plan C: Not scrapping the Marketplace, but making it better instead

    Echoing what Furrypine and Deadidol had said.

    Most of the problems on here are caused by bad communication rather than bad people. If I can help solve the communication issues and the admin issues then we're on to something.

  28. #28

    Default Re: Plan C: Not scrapping the Marketplace, but making it better instead

    Quote Originally Posted by God View Post
    If I had a blank slate to create a new marketplace, I would consider the following criteria:
    - BN has a fantastic database of many, many perfumes
    - Each user can use this database to create a personal wardrobe of what they own/had/want
    - With this is mind, a new marketplace should aim for complete wardrobe integration

    On each for sale listing we would want the following information:
    - Name
    - Bottle Size
    - Percent Remaining
    - Photograph
    - Other Comments (i.e. “Tester, No Box, Batch Code XXXXXXX”
    - Asking price

    Now what I envision the ideal process to be when selling is this:

    1. I go to my wardrobe
    2. I select the fragrances under “Owned” that I want to sell using check boxes
    3. I click on a button called “List These Items for Sale”
    4. This brings me to a new screen where each fragrance I want to sell is shown, with text boxes next to it where I can enter information.
    5. For each fragrance, I enter the bottle size, approximate % remaining, comments, and maybe upload a photo in a space provided.
    6. I click “Create My Listing” and the system takes all the information I provided and creates a new thread with a standardized, easy to understand format that would be the same for everyone.
    7. If something sells, I can easily remove a fragrance on the same screen where I entered the info/uploaded photos. (This step is complicated and needs more work).

    I imagine buying would be the same, where you exchange paypal emails via message. Or maybe have everyone link their Paypal email to their BN account (eh) and then there would be a link in the thread that says “Buy Perfume_Name from user User_Name” and that could take you to a paypal cart with the asking price. Not sure how best offers would work, probably just via message.

    This turned out much longer than expected, but I am studying computer science/art and like to try to work on this kind of thing so there you go. Hopefully someone reads it.
    This is pretty much exactly like something I coded back in about 2007 but never got round to finishing!

  29. #29

    Default Re: Plan C: Not scrapping the Marketplace, but making it better instead

    Quote Originally Posted by stuigi View Post
    Sorry to disagree my friend, but size has nothing to do with it.
    Are we still talking splits/decants here??

  30. #30
    Dependent Viffer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Plan C: Not scrapping the Marketplace, but making it better instead

    My two cents:
    Keep all transactions in the thread. (except, the exchange of personal details which so be done via PM).
    Only people involved in the sale to post in thread. Example of forbidden post: I wish I had the founds, good luck with the sale... and similar pointless, thread bumping posts!
    The existing code of stating country to be made compulsory.
    Seller to be clear about postage. Example: I will post first class recorded within 3 working days of cleared founds.
    Thread not to be deleted but, archived once positive feedback has been left by both parties or, any disputes has been resolved (seller responsible fro archiving)
    Feed back should link to original thread.
    All disputes outside Paypal to be discussed in the thread.
    Seller responsible for finding suitable web hosting for his images (so as to not take limited BN host storage and bandwidth)
    BN plus membership required for sellers
    Currently wearing: Chypre Palatin by MDCI




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