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Thread: Lilac Help!

  1. #1

    Default Lilac Help!

    Hey all,

    I am working on a white lilac accord and it has all the usual suspects: hydroxycitronellal, lilial, lyral, linalool, cinnamic alcohol, petigrain, jasmine, cyclamen aldehyde, indole, terpineol.

    Can you make some recommendations for good naturals AND good aroma chemicals in general that will help to make this more beautiful and natural?

    I have added a touch of miel oliffac to give it a honey note which works really well, as well as a little gamma octalactone for a creamy coumarin effect and methyl laitone. Any other ideas?

  2. #2
    mnaonbn
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    Default Re: Lilac Help!

    Mod, please delete.
    Last edited by mnaonbn; 15th October 2017 at 12:55 PM.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Lilac Help!

    Extremely helpful! Thank you very much. I don't have nigella but I get stuff from hermitage often so I will add it to the next order. I was considering the aldehydes and it is good to get your advice on which one you think best - I'll give it a shot right now.

    It's funny that you dislike y-octalactone - I really love the scent but I also really adore the scent of costus so perhaps that is why

    I was also diluting some tolu abs from hermitage yesterday so I have plenty to try out - thanks for the tips!

  4. #4
    mnaonbn
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    Default Re: Lilac Help!

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    Last edited by mnaonbn; 15th October 2017 at 12:52 PM.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Lilac Help!

    Quote Originally Posted by mnaonbn View Post
    You are very welcome. Thank you in kind for sharing your thoughts and creative venture. I am glad that you have the Tolu from Hermitage. I think it is really wonderful stuff...a beautiful and versatile material. As for the γ-Octalactone, I too really like Costus Root, but when I smell these two materials side by side, the γ-Octalactone grosses me out, whereas the Costus intrigues me.
    Ah I haven't smelt the two side by side - I'll do that and see what I think

    Incidentally - I threw together an accord based on your suggestions and wow - that c-12 MNA really adds something magical to it! I reduced other chemicals and switched a few as per your suggestion and it certainly is a big improvement on what I had. I can't wait to see how this develops over the next week or two.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Lilac Help!

    By the way, the petitgrain I am using which I have reduced a lot is bigaradier heart by Robertet which is a very refined petitgrain - with neroli nuances. It's quite a lovely material. I also reduced the indole to trace amounts only.

  7. #7
    mnaonbn
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    Default Re: Lilac Help!

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    Last edited by mnaonbn; 15th October 2017 at 12:50 PM.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Lilac Help!

    Quote Originally Posted by mnaonbn View Post
    So wonderful to hear this. I hope that your continued tweaking and time lead you even further in getting the accord that you have in mind.





    Re the Petitgrain, a "heart" distillation of this material would indeed be a better choice for this accord. That I could see working. Despite repeated attempts, I have never been able to elicit a response from Robertet to do business with me, but it is good that you have, as they have some unique materials. Indole at trace levels makes more sense to me.
    Sadly I am too small for Robertet as well - I get my Robertet stuff from Perfumer Supply House - if she doesn't have it - neither do I One thing she doesn't have is Robertet Lavender Fleurs - the best lavender on the market I believe - but you can get it at Perfumers Apprentice fortunately.

    Here is all the Robertet stuff available from PSH: http://perfumersupplyhouse.com/produ...gory/robertet/

  9. #9
    mnaonbn
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    Default Re: Lilac Help!

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    Last edited by mnaonbn; 15th October 2017 at 12:50 PM.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Lilac Help!

    Hmm.. Have you tried Tilianol/Lindenol? It's different from a-Terpineol..
    I have never smelled Lilacs, so I can't really help.
    Sometimes when I mix a couple of Muguet chemicals together I get weird effects, so you might want to experiment with that..

  11. #11

    Default Re: Lilac Help!

    I haven't tried tillanol/lindenol - I will get a sample. I just got a sample arrive of purified alpha-terpineol natural so I will retry the accord with that - even though I have reduced the quantity quite a bit.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Lilac Help!

    I read once, here, that lilac was pretty much an iris accord with dimethyl hydroquinone added. I've been working on an iris accord for a while and that sounds about right, might be worth a try...

    tetrahydro linalool has a lilac aspect, if you can find lilac aldehyde I'm sure it would be helpful too.
    Justin E. Beasley

  13. #13

    Default Re: Lilac Help!

    Lilac... my favourite topic. If you look under any lilac enfleurage post or lilac quest on here there will be realms on it as I chase this baby every year. I haven't got time until next week but I have oodles of headspace analysis and formulas filed away. I will dig them out for you.
    Last edited by mumsy; 2nd July 2015 at 06:53 AM.
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  14. #14

    Default Re: Lilac Help!

    Quote Originally Posted by mumsy View Post
    Lilac... my favourite topic. If you look under any lilac enfleurage post or lilac quest on here there will be realms on it as I chase this baby every year. I haven't got time until next week but I have oodles of headspace analysis and formulas filed away. I will dig them out for you.
    Awesome - thank you!

  15. #15

    Default Re: Lilac Help!

    Quote Originally Posted by JEBeasley View Post
    I read once, here, that lilac was pretty much an iris accord with dimethyl hydroquinone added. I've been working on an iris accord for a while and that sounds about right, might be worth a try...

    tetrahydro linalool has a lilac aspect, if you can find lilac aldehyde I'm sure it would be helpful too.
    I did see dimethyl hydroquinone pop up in my research for lilac. I have some - I might try a bit in the working version of the accord which is currently smelling pretty lovely.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Lilac Help!

    [edited to remove erroneous post]

  17. #17
    mnaonbn
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    Default Re: Lilac Help!

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    Last edited by mnaonbn; 15th October 2017 at 12:50 PM.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Lilac Help!

    Can't find what I'm looking for but here is one thing. Pouchers.

    image.jpg.
    The PONK club - gymnosium for perfumers (NOTE:- New club matters on hold whilst I care for my mum)

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  19. #19

    Default Re: Lilac Help!

    Quote Originally Posted by mumsy View Post
    Can't find what I'm looking for but here is one thing. Pouchers.

    image.jpg.
    Thanks I have that book - amongst others - and used it to help me get an idea of what would normally go in a lilac.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Lilac Help!

    Poucher formuła look interesting, but lilac don't smell cresol. Lilac smell typical white narcotic floral, with specific plasticky, rubbery hazel like note, similar to lilac smell jasmine and champaca absolute or based farnesene, linalool, methyl antranilate, indole, PEA and heliotropin, this smell lilac without plasticky hazel note
    I looking for popular floral molecules smell plasticky real white narcotic floral like mock orange, lilac, champaca, jasmine and chestnut. The molecule is common on mainstream woman fragrance like Guerlain Teazzura, Black Opium and other sweet caramelic or jasminish watery floral fragrance.

  21. #21

    Default Re: Lilac Help!

    It also depends on what colour lilac too. Purple, Mauve or White. They each have a separate odour analysis and that is what I have in a file somewhere. I will re-find them soon.
    The PONK club - gymnosium for perfumers (NOTE:- New club matters on hold whilst I care for my mum)

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  22. #22
    mnaonbn
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    Default Re: Lilac Help!

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    Last edited by mnaonbn; 15th October 2017 at 12:51 PM.

  23. #23
    mnaonbn
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    Default Re: Lilac Help!

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    Last edited by mnaonbn; 15th October 2017 at 12:51 PM.

  24. #24
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    Default Re: Lilac Help!

    JCE gives a lilac composition that simply consists of Helional and PEA (+traces of clove for Pink Lilac)
    It really does smell like lilac, albeit not very sophisticated one.

  25. #25

    Default Re: Lilac Help!

    Quote Originally Posted by mnaonbn View Post
    It occurred to me that if you later decide that the Ald. C-12 MNA is too overbearing even at trace levels, you could try Lauric Acid instead for that same soapy/fatty quality. Just a thought.
    Interesting - I haven't tried lauric acid - but the c-12 worked beautifully in the accord.

  26. #26

    Default Re: Lilac Help!

    I found a headspace analysis: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17723612

    Lilac aldehyde A
    lilac aldehyde B
    lilac aldehyde C
    lilac aldehyde D
    lilac alcohol A
    lilac alcohol B
    lilac alcohol C
    lilac alcohol D
    alpha-pinene
    sabinene
    beta-pinene
    myrcene
    d-limonene
    eucalyptol
    cis-ocimene
    benzaldehyde
    terpinolene
    linalool
    benzene acetaldehyde
    alpha-terpineol
    p-methoxyanisole
    p-anisaldehyde
    (Z,E)-alpha-farnesene
    (E,E)-alpha-farnesene
    Last edited by cuallito; 7th July 2015 at 01:24 AM.

  27. #27
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    Default Re: Lilac Help!

    Thanks Cuallito, but obtaining these Lilac aldehydes and alcohols is impossible, so it sort of means that the headspace is impossible to make by that formula, and you have to get there a different route...

    PK
    Paul Kiler
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  28. #28

    Default Re: Lilac Help!

    I have created the following white lilac accord (mainly based on a formula I found in a book) :
    • terpineol extra 10% 20
    • heliotropine 10% 18
    • anisic aldehyde 10% 8
    • PEA 10% 12
    • indole 1% 10
    • hydroxycitronnellal 10% 16
    • styrax e.o. 10% 12
    • cis-3 hexenol 10% 4
    • PADMA 10% 5


    TOTAL - 105

    A asked some friends what this accord was smelling, and the answer was... lilac

  29. #29

    Default Re: Lilac Help!

    Jardin: looks good though don't you find the cis3hex to be overwhelming at that level?

  30. #30

    Default Re: Lilac Help!

    Well, maybe, I don't have a sample with me now so can't smell it again.
    I must say I didn't rework my formula a lot...
    When (or if...) I'll do it, I'll take your comment into consideration.




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