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Thread: Pine Note

  1. #1
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    Default Pine Note

    I would like to add a pine note (preferably as a middle note) to a fragrance I am working on, but I'm reading some conflicting information, which is confusing. I was hoping you all could help clarify it for me. The pine essential oils I have looked at range from a top note to a base note. The scotch pine on the Perfumer's Apprentice site is listed as a base note, but then the pine oil on Perfumers World says it lasts 30 minutes on a smelling strip. Any recommendations for a good pine essential oil or building a good pine note/accord would be greatly appreciated. Some aroma chemicals I am thinking about using in it are terpinolene, nopyl acetate, cyclacet, and alpha & beta pinene. Thanks!

  2. #2

    Default Re: Pine Note

    Pine Needle oil, Juniper Berry oil (may have solubility problems), Cedarleaf oil, Cypress oil, Fir Balsam, Aldehyde C12 MNA, iso Bornyl Acetate, Labdanum oil, Cistus Abs., Fenchyl Acetate, Borneol, Verdoracine, Coniferan and Boisiris.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Pine Note

    Thank you David! I'll look into these and see which ones I can get my hands on.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Pine Note

    Look here:

    http://www.edenbotanicals.com/fir-ba...solute-10.html

    It is really beautiful and complex,this oil alone smells like Norne by Slumberhouse (if you know that fragrance),woody pine vibe and it is a middle note like you wanted.
    Oh and they also have that same oil undiluted if you would like.

  5. #5
    Basenotes Institution rynegne's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pine Note

    Check out fir absolute...I've had the best luck w/ that in creating a smokey pine type accord. Pinon resin is soluble in alcohol and is nice, a little dirtier than you're probably expecting though both in having to filter and in smell as it comes off as lightly dusty. David's other suggestions are spot on as always.

  6. #6
    Basenotes Junkie Serg Ixygon's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pine Note

    Fir and Pine are different. Fir absolute is not a pine at all, imho. Isobornyl acetat can be a brick in a wall but it's uncertain coniferan. Camfen and Pinen are not bad but last SECONDS even not minutes.
    There is a Pino Sylvestre fragrance where this pine note is evident and long lasting. The question- how they did it sure with AC...

  7. #7

    Default Re: Pine Note

    I don't care if they are the same or different; I care if they smell good and if they can be used to create a "Pine note", as was asked. I have used all of the ingredients mentioned (and more) to make a really super (not my opinion, but the opinion of many others) Pine fragrance for Jo Malone, called "Pine and Eucalyptus". It was sold every Christmas as a limited edition of Candle, Reed Diffuser and Spray. It sold out every year.

    It matters not what you use, so long as the end result is what you want. I would not recommend Pinene or Camphene, however I would recommend those oils which contain them.

    Aldehyde C12 lauric, Oakmoss, Evernyl, Sinocitral and Frescile should also be looked at.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Pine Note

    Quote Originally Posted by Serg Ixygon View Post
    Fir and Pine are different.
    Could you please describe the difference?

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Pine Note

    David, What do you think of Pinoacetaldehyde?

    PK

  10. #10

    Default Re: Pine Note

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post
    David, What do you think of Pinoacetaldehyde?

    PK
    I have used it occasionally and found it pleasant, although nothing special, to be honest. I don't think it is terribly stable, but I may be wrong about this. As you can tell, I'm somewhat indifferent to it.

  11. #11
    Basenotes Institution rynegne's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pine Note

    I thought about this more last night, if you're looking for a lighter pine that's crisp/clean and lemony without getting too much like surface cleanser vibrance...you might want a very very small amount of C12 MNA coupled with Somalian Frankincense and a touch of fir absolute.

  12. #12
    Super Member Chris Smith's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pine Note

    Hi cwf623, I'd recommend Siberian Fir (Abies sibirica) essential oil. This material is a 'choice' oil to use in perfumery. Hope this helps Regards, Chris

  13. #13
    Basenotes Junkie Serg Ixygon's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pine Note

    Quote Originally Posted by leathermountain View Post
    Could you please describe the difference?
    English is not my mother tonque, so, our US and British members can explain better why they call FIR different trees- Pseudotsuga, Abies, Picea but not Pine.
    In two words, for me Fir is sweet and balsamic, Pine is camfora and green.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Pine Note

    Thanks everyone for the helpful replies. I can assure you that I will look into each of these suggestions. Amazing to me how much you can learn on these forums.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Pine Note

    Quote Originally Posted by Serg Ixygon View Post
    English is not my mother tonque, so, our US and British members can explain better why they call FIR different trees- Pseudotsuga, Abies, Picea but not Pine.
    In two words, for me Fir is sweet and balsamic, Pine is camfora and green.
    The two species are different, and the smells are different, but they can both be used to create a fragrance that would be described as "Pine".

  16. #16

    Default Re: Pine Note

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post
    David, What do you think of Pinoacetaldehyde?

    PK
    Just adding to Davidís conclusions, I spent some time with a senior perfumer from IFF who sang the praises of this material (among others, all predictably enough, of IFF manufacture) and I was getting quite interested in it until I discovered the price: itís nice, but not that nice was my conclusion and I have yet to buy any... which isnít to say I never will, but so far no compelling use for it has come up.
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  17. #17

    Default Re: Pine Note

    Quote Originally Posted by Serg Ixygon View Post
    for me Fir is sweet and balsamic, Pine is camfora and green.
    This is what I meant, the smell difference. Thanks.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Pine Note

    Quote Originally Posted by David Ruskin View Post
    The two species are different, and the smells are different, but they can both be used to create a fragrance that would be described as "Pine".
    That makes sense. Thanks.

    What do you and others think of these as possible constituents of a pine note?
    Cistus EO (is this the same as what you call labdanum oil?)
    Atlas Cedar EO (no mention of leaves)
    Clary Sage EO
    Olibanum serrata Absolute India (I'm not sure how the regional names map onto the species names, or if they do, so I can't tell if this should be similar to the frankincense that rynegne mentions)
    Lavender EO (depending on how it smells -- I know there are a range of cultivars and crosses)

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Pine Note

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Bartlett View Post
    Just adding to David’s conclusions, I spent some time with a senior perfumer from IFF who sang the praises of this material (among others, all predictably enough, of IFF manufacture) and I was getting quite interested in it until I discovered the price: it’s nice, but not that nice was my conclusion and I have yet to buy any... which isn’t to say I never will, but so far no compelling use for it has come up.
    Yes, It is quite expensive indeed...

    The best use I may have for it is a Schiff base.

    PK

  20. #20

    Default Re: Pine Note

    Quote Originally Posted by leathermountain View Post
    This is what I meant, the smell difference. Thanks.
    But both can be used to create a "Pine".

  21. #21

    Default Re: Pine Note

    Quote Originally Posted by leathermountain View Post
    That makes sense. Thanks.

    What do you and others think of these as possible constituents of a pine note?
    Cistus EO (is this the same as what you call labdanum oil?)
    Atlas Cedar EO (no mention of leaves)
    Clary Sage EO
    Olibanum serrata Absolute India (I'm not sure how the regional names map onto the species names, or if they do, so I can't tell if this should be similar to the frankincense that rynegne mentions)
    Lavender EO (depending on how it smells -- I know there are a range of cultivars and crosses)
    If you just use these, I doubt if you will produce a very good Pine, although you may make a very good fragrance base.

  22. #22

    Default Re: Pine Note

    I've also struggled with finding the best piney notes. I have a lot to learn still, as I feel like there is some material I haven't tried that will be my holy grail of pine. If anyone knows, please share, ha ha.

    Having said that, I will mention that I think black spruce is an under appreciated material for perfumery. I think it has some "universal perfuming" characteristics, perhaps a bit "sexier" than some other piney notes, complex and balanced. It's not for every perfume. I have yet to smell anything that matches the pine needles I smell walking through the woods.

    Juniper is also a special material, though I have had solubility problems with it, as David mentions. I haven't figured out the best solvent to use.

    (Edit: The other suggestions here seem like good ones)
    Last edited by DrSmellThis; 10th September 2015 at 09:21 AM.

  23. #23

    Default Re: Pine Note

    Fresh Juniper Berry oil will dissolve in ethanol with no problems. As it ages it becomes less and less soluble. Try chilling and filtering as you go, it may help.

    I don't think that there is one "holy grail" of Pine. It is a question of the right combination of things, each one of which, on its own, may not smell like Pine, but when put together, does. A mixture of Green, Aldehydic, Resinous and Woody. I have not mentioned the dry woody aspect of Pine; Norlimbanol, Vertenex, Cedramber; and so on.

  24. #24

    Default Re: Pine Note

    Quote Originally Posted by David Ruskin View Post
    But both can be used to create a "Pine".
    I understand. The quotation marks help distinguish between two senses of the word pine: the constructed note versus the common name for a botanical grouping and its associated smells.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Ruskin View Post
    If you just use these, I doubt if you will produce a very good Pine, although you may make a very good fragrance base.
    Hm, maybe I'll try to make said very good fragrance base instead. Searching under the lamppost...

  25. #25
    Basenotes Junkie Dmitriy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pine Note

    Here are mentioned the many different conifers materials .. Which ones have a more green, fresh scent without too many camphor ..? AC more and naturals too..
    Last edited by Dmitriy; 19th September 2015 at 09:55 AM.

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    Default Re: Pine Note

    Quote Originally Posted by PurePerfume350 View Post
    Look here:

    http://www.edenbotanicals.com/fir-ba...solute-10.html

    It is really beautiful and complex,this oil alone smells like Norne by Slumberhouse (if you know that fragrance),woody pine vibe and it is a middle note like you wanted.
    Oh and they also have that same oil undiluted if you would like.
    I received the fir balsam absolute yesterday (thanks for the suggestion) and it is like sticking your head in a Christmas tree. Very beautiful smell that I think in a small amount will add a great facet to the pine note I'm building.

  27. #27
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    Default Re: Pine Note

    Speaking of the fir balsam absolute, I just tried to dilute it and ran into a problem. I heated in a warm water bath for about 20 minutes, but when I tried to get it out of the bottle it was a very thick tar and impossible to transfer, much less dilute. I did unscrew the cap slightly when heating. Any ideas from anyone on how to fix this? I've tried to heat for a longer period of time and increased the temp, but it's not budging. Thinking I might have to chalk this one up to a rookie mistake of some sort on my part.
    Last edited by cwf623; 19th September 2015 at 04:11 PM.

  28. #28

    Default Re: Pine Note

    Which diluent are you using?

  29. #29
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    Default Re: Pine Note

    Quote Originally Posted by I.D.Adam View Post
    Which diluent are you using?
    Perfumers alcohol, but the absolute was so thick I couldn't get it out of the container to attempt to dilute it. It was the consistency of a thick tar.

  30. #30
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    Default Re: Pine Note

    Warmer.... but it's still messy...




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