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  1. #1

    Default Lost in Amber Dimension ^^

    Hi,

    I feel my question a bit stupid, but... when I put my glass jar of pure Ambrofix crystals, I smell it ambery of course, only a bit, my nose is saturated quickly (ok it's quite ordinary) but I smell above all a powdery complex fragrance. It's like we found on some fresh linen, laundry soaps, to me very powdery and clean, like floral and soapy at the same time (amber...).

    How can I get this scent ? When I use it neat at high dilution or very concentrated, this is not rendering the same effect. I would like to find such a powdery effect and I know it does exist, I've ever smelled it on clothes worn by people. It's not powdery like methylionone, orris...
    Of course, Ambrofix does a good job for amber notes, but how to obtain this powdery effect ? what AC could do the trick at other concentrations, not only pure crystals ?

    Thanks a lot !

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Lost in Amber Dimension ^^

    Heliotropin and musk ought to do it.
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  3. #3

    Default Re: Lost in Amber Dimension ^^

    Quote Originally Posted by Jano View Post
    Hi,

    I feel my question a bit stupid, but... when I put my glass jar of pure Ambrofix crystals, I smell it ambery of course, only a bit, my nose is saturated quickly (ok it's quite ordinary) but I smell above all a powdery complex fragrance. It's like we found on some fresh linen, laundry soaps, to me very powdery and clean, like floral and soapy at the same time (amber...).

    How can I get this scent ? When I use it neat at high dilution or very concentrated, this is not rendering the same effect. I would like to find such a powdery effect and I know it does exist, I've ever smelled it on clothes worn by people. It's not powdery like methylionone, orris...
    Of course, Ambrofix does a good job for amber notes, but how to obtain this powdery effect ? what AC could do the trick at other concentrations, not only pure crystals ?

    Thanks a lot !
    If I understand you correctly, you might try cetalox, cosmone or celestolide.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Lost in Amber Dimension ^^

    thank you !

    Why didn't I realize that I made something on that way with Galaxolide+Vanillin and some other simple blends (association trials) based on white musk(s)+vanilla family... ?
    I have Cetalox DL (CAS #3738-00-9) and I don't find it does the job, when alone, so I will try sophisticated musky/ambery/powdery blends that lean towards this smell.
    I have some other musks, not a lot, but no Cosmone nor Celestolide.
    Alas ! I don't have nor Heliotropin, just Heliotrope Replacer from Perfumersworld, that unfortunately crystalized only a few weeks after I bought it ! I'm glad having just bought a 5ml sample ^^ and I think I could replace it with a blend containing Anisaldehyde, Benzaldehyde and Vanillin-like ACs...

    But neat Heliotropin... that's another question. Paul, I read recently a thread where you gave some tips to find it out... as a sample.I have never smelled Heliotropin, is it really a must-have AC ? I know a french supplier (but prices are a bit outrageous sometimes) and he sells a mixture 25% Heliotropin + 75% IPM... It's affordable but is it interesting ? I mean enough powerful to be diluted that much ?

    I think I NEED ask my boss... what's on his clothes, because that smells like that very closely to my nose. But along the day, he's filling around the air with this scent in the big hangar where I work (hundreds of m and a roof 7/8 meters high) and even very ventilated/diluted, it's still smelling like that ! But that's a very delicate question ^^ in a lumberjacking world...

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Lost in Amber Dimension ^^

    Heliotropine is key for some paths to powder. If you don't like that 25% dilution, you can order the 50% dilution, in the form of the PA Heliotropine replacer.

    My kilo of pure heliotropine arrived yesterday.

    Actually, I really don't like powdery perfume, but it is so easy to make, that it just happens sometimes unintentionally...

    PK
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  6. #6

    Default Re: Lost in Amber Dimension ^^

    I greatly appreciate your comments. As a beginner (or maybe a little more), I'm looking for myself, for the sense I want to put into my creations, my way to compose. And given that I'm just a hobbyist with limited ressources (for money above all), it's almost necessary for me to create "easy" and catchy perfumes, to make a bit money in order to support all that cost and of course buying and trying new materials. But I really enjoy it, I'm crazy about it. It was deeply hidden in me, but now I know and understand why scents were always so important and act in my spirit like they come from anterior lives. So hard to describe, and probably weird to read !

    Oh, just to say, I'm not fond of easy perfumes, like using Grojsman Accord as a base. I spend so much time for each creation, for an amateur. But my "customers" (they are still a few) can feel this through my first steps in perfumery, through my first creations. I have only a very few perfumes that I consider like right. I would not imagine a creation being only powdery, I will certainly add some notes in opposition, like everything need contrast. And here I'm only talking about "artificial" scents, I don't really know what is a perfume or not, depending on the intention we give to it and the way it is worn...

    I returned to my Ambrofix jar and sniffed it a lot... it came evident for me that I feel a kind of "bubble gum" note to the powdery effect. When I say bubble gum to precise it's about "Malabar" we can find in France. Quickly, I would say it reminds me a bit of Isoamyl Isovalerate...

    But when I wear (diluted then sprayed) Ambrofix, I don't feel really fruity notes... that's an interesting trick.
    Do you smell something like that when neat from a jar ?

    I think you can't offer Heliotropin, no ? Is it an important material for me at this point ?

  7. #7

    Default Re: Lost in Amber Dimension ^^

    What you are looking for, if I understand correctly, is that smell of ambroxan: piercing, clean, laundry, dry, powdery, creamy, clean tobacco, paper. You don't necessarily need heliotropin, as it is more in the direction of cosmetic powdery (think compact powder) as opposed to laundry clean powdery. If that is correct, then you can build your scent around ambroxan, adding elements that would enhance its qualitiy. To my mind come musks definitely the more diffusive and powderier the better (helvetolide, galaxolide, muscenone, tonalid, ambrettolide it is up to you) a trace of ambrocenide for support, fixation and as a musk booster, a hint of vanillin or ethyl vanillin (optional) for that warmth (think warm loundry out of dryer), ambrox super by firmenich has that clean powderiness enhanced, if you can get your hands on it, for example. A trace of some wood like sandalwood or iso e super even and at the top you could add creamy powdery elements like anisic alcohol or anisaldehyde, a hint of citrus for lift or even dihydromyrcenol because it is a clean citrus that lasts, for bubblegum facet you could add some heliotropyl acetate to the top.

    For extreme squeaky clean: Aldehydes in traces like aldehyde supra extreme dilution, aldehye 12 mna in extreme dilution for that ambery crystal cleanlines, c10 for orangey cleanlines - think tide detergent, and many other elements like linalool for that flowery cleanlines, or vertenex for clean woody top note.
    Last edited by perfectscent; 14th January 2017 at 06:39 PM.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Lost in Amber Dimension ^^

    Thank you for your advices !

    i think there is an AC exactly for what I'm searching, I don't think it's Ambroxan or Cetalox (or isomers mixtures)...
    This typical scent is the following : take pure Ambrofix crystals and smell them directly, pure Ambrofix at 100% concentration, of course it gives a saturated effect. To my nose, I don't feel much ambery notes, but a clean powdery one, a bit fruity, sopay, white musk, hard to describe to me as I'm not highly experienced. It's very dry, but warm. It's also delicious I find, and it's very common here in France, I think in some laundry soaps or rather fabric softeners.
    I think it's maybe not a mixture, because the odor is very linear, till the end of the dry-down.

    I "love" aldehydes like C12MNA, C12 Lauric, and I'm often using C9/C10/C11 undecylenic (C11 more rarely, very particular...) and some of ACs you mentioned, but I don't find this scent in them.

    You said "tobacco" and this scent reminds me a bit of it. But clean tobacco, not the way I find some tobaccos "skatolic" (it's not a negative opinion, all the opposite).

    But it's not compulsory for me to find this, just because I'm eager to know what it is...

  9. #9

    Default Re: Lost in Amber Dimension ^^

    Well, you've got your answer - it's ambroxan and especially ambrox super by firmenich.
    Last edited by perfectscent; 15th January 2017 at 07:22 AM.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Lost in Amber Dimension ^^

    thanns, I'll do some trials asap... and see what's that Ambrox Super compared to Ambroxan DL/Cetalox.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Lost in Amber Dimension ^^

    Please do, and report back if you get a chance, I am curious what your experience will be.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Lost in Amber Dimension ^^

    You must be very careful with heliotropin. Heliotropin sometimes created cheap flat soap smell. It works well with wanillin coumarin and salicylates combo ( classic french vanilla aroma, suntan lotion etc. ) and orris, violet, stricty powdery aroma like orris root, carrot aspect etc. Heliotropin it looks awfull with rich transparent tea like white floral, floral composition without salicylates, and opaque rich white jasminish like Pure Poison. Heliotropin is ruined modern chypres, dry-scent.Comes off as aroma cheap soap.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Lost in Amber Dimension ^^

    Quote Originally Posted by Kacper Kafel View Post
    You must be very careful with heliotropin. Heliotropin sometimes created cheap flat soap smell. It works well with wanillin coumarin and salicylates combo ( classic french vanilla aroma, suntan lotion etc. ) and orris, violet, stricty powdery aroma like orris root, carrot aspect etc. Heliotropin it looks awfull with rich transparent tea like white floral, floral composition without salicylates, and opaque rich white jasminish like Pure Poison. Heliotropin is ruined modern chypres, dry-scent.Comes off as aroma cheap soap.
    Didn't you post it before on a previous thread ?
    Ok thanks


    Perfectscent: OK, these days I'm keeping myself away from my perfume organ, because I must take time other things just for several days. But I'm missing it amazingly ! But I will report if I find something interesting even if it's not allright.


    I will do trials with powdery and musky ACs. I think I will pick up my Musk Keton. Curiously, everybody (so not only me) find it very sweet and weak. Hrad to dilute but still very weak. It has a vaguely yellowish powder aspect and comes from De Hekserij. Could it be alduterated ? But it seems that De Hekserij is very reliable and others products I have from them are perfect. Is it really weak so much ?

  14. #14

    Default Re: Lost in Amber Dimension ^^

    I would count heliotropin among my top 20 most used chemicals. I have it in various forms (natural, ex sassafras, etc) and I use it in almost everything (though sometimes in very small doses).

    Without it, two of the greatest perfumes in history would not have been possible: Chypre and L'Origan by Coty. Both have over 7% heliotropin.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Lost in Amber Dimension ^^

    Quote Originally Posted by Jano View Post
    Didn't you post it before on a previous thread ?
    Ok thanks


    Perfectscent: OK, these days I'm keeping myself away from my perfume organ, because I must take time other things just for several days. But I'm missing it amazingly ! But I will report if I find something interesting even if it's not allright.


    I will do trials with powdery and musky ACs. I think I will pick up my Musk Keton. Curiously, everybody (so not only me) find it very sweet and weak. Hrad to dilute but still very weak. It has a vaguely yellowish powder aspect and comes from De Hekserij. Could it be alduterated ? But it seems that De Hekserij is very reliable and others products I have from them are perfect. Is it really weak so much ?
    Musk ketone is the most important musk of all in my opinion. It is the single longest lasting musk chemical you can use. Nothing comes close. It is also incredibly beautiful (particularly when combined with musk ambrette). It should be pale in color and have a comforting soft scent whilst dry. Add it to some citral or something and compare its effect - truly outstanding and beautiful. It is no wonder it was the main musk for one hundred years!

  16. #16

    Default Re: Lost in Amber Dimension ^^

    thanks for your precious comments

    How do you use Musk Keton ? I mean percentage of dilution and solvent ? I've read benzyl benzoate, and I dare say that I have not tried many things with it due to its low odor and difficulty to dilute (or re-precipitation into final alcoholic solution of perfume, crystals in the botton of the bottle)... I've done a dilution, I'm not sure from my memory I would say 50% in benzyl salicylate, because I found this simple accord useful into some of my creations (maybe not in the future).

    So, Heliotropin should be on my wish list, and I should see with one of my supplier to have a sample. There is more to be done with more accessible chemicals, and giving very dangerous results...
    Is Heliotropex N (IFF) a good replacer ? I've seen that Heliotropin is rather a mid note, isn't it ?

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Lost in Amber Dimension ^^

    Just don't worry about diluting Musk Ketone, simply add to your concentrate in powder form, and it most likely will have no issue dissolving into whatever is in there...
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  18. #18

    Default Re: Lost in Amber Dimension ^^

    Jano - like Paul said, add it in powder form to the formula - you don't need to dilute it. It will dissolve in the mixture overnight (or faster). This is true of pretty much every perfumery crystalline that I can think of - coumarin, heliotropin, vanillin, musk ketone, musk xylene, musk ambrette, rose crystals, cetalox, phenyl acetic acid, etc.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Lost in Amber Dimension ^^

    ok thanks, that what I usually do for other powders not too powerful (not for ethyl-maltol i.e.), I think I didn't let it to dissolve as long as it needs

  20. #20

    Default Re: Lost in Amber Dimension ^^

    Quote Originally Posted by jfrater View Post
    I would count heliotropin among my top 20 most used chemicals. I have it in various forms (natural, ex sassafras, etc) and I use it in almost everything (though sometimes in very small doses).

    Without it, two of the greatest perfumes in history would not have been possible: Chypre and L'Origan by Coty. Both have over 7% heliotropin.
    I agree, heliotropin is one of the staples of perfumery (classical at least), up there with coumarin and vanillin.

    Interesting that there is that much in Chypre de Coty. I was wondering what gave it that sweet powdery anisic tone. I knew there had to be some heliotropin in there, but >7% is surprising. I was wondering if there was maybe some anisaldehyde or anisyl acetate in there too. Do you know how much coumarin and vanillin where in Chypre de Coty?
    Last edited by Renegade; 16th January 2017 at 11:07 PM.

  21. #21

    Default Re: Lost in Amber Dimension ^^

    As already said many times before, you have to have a license to buy or import heliotropin pure in the EU (don't know about other parts of the world). It is a precursor for making drug ecstasy, in other words it is illegal to buy unless you have a license.
    Last edited by perfectscent; 17th January 2017 at 01:51 PM.

  22. #22
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    Default Re: Lost in Amber Dimension ^^

    Here's my experience in the USA - Don't need a formal "license" to buy Heliotropin in the USA. I just received my Kilo of Heliotropin last week. I don't have a license. Bought it through my vendor.

    What I *DID* have to do, is sign some DEA Drug Enforcement Agency paperwork, for the year, (every year), and for each purchase of restricted materials, filed with and through my vendor. I also have built a relationship of several years with this vendor, so this is just a formality, and not a giant issue of trust or anything else. I have bought other DEA restricted materials, this is the second year of purchasing items on the "LIST".

    PK
    Last edited by pkiler; 17th January 2017 at 05:45 PM.
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  23. #23

    Default Re: Lost in Amber Dimension ^^

    Absolutely Paul, I agree with you, we have the same thing over here, except that they can show up at your doorstep and check the quantities of your stuff from time to time.
    I am also assuming that you have a registered company for production of fragrances.
    Pharmacies per se are not restricted to purchase heliotropin (also called piperonal).
    Last edited by perfectscent; 17th January 2017 at 06:02 PM.

  24. #24

    Default Re: Lost in Amber Dimension ^^

    I understand... No problem, it doesn't mean I can't create anything no more...
    I think a trusted relation with a supplier is good point, and time... it needs time.

    For the Future ....

  25. #25

    Default Re: Lost in Amber Dimension ^^

    Quote Originally Posted by Renegade View Post
    I agree, heliotropin is one of the staples of perfumery (classical at least), up there with coumarin and vanillin.

    Interesting that there is that much in Chypre de Coty. I was wondering what gave it that sweet powdery anisic tone. I knew there had to be some heliotropin in there, but >7% is surprising. I was wondering if there was maybe some anisaldehyde or anisyl acetate in there too. Do you know how much coumarin and vanillin where in Chypre de Coty?
    High amounts - heliotropin at over 7% is the lowest quantity of the three crystalines according to a GCMS I had done on a vintage bottle. It also supplemented those with vanilla absolute and tonka bean absolute (as was the common practice).

    Unfortunately if you want to recreate the original Chypre you won't be able to do so readily as it has at least six bases which are not available for the most part (you can get them but they are extremely expensive and must be bought in very large quantities). In fact, the floral heart is basically all bases supplemented with some naturals and chemicals (methyl ionone, rose de mai, jasmin, ylang, rhodinol).

    Also, remember that there was more than one version of Chypre. The GCMS I have is of a parfum and the EDT was most likely a different formula (true of some Chanel and Patou perfumes as well) AND as certain chemicals were discovered, Coty added them to his work-in-progress formula. It started with musk ketone and ambrette and ended up with only musk ketone. The original had no ambrarome but when it came on the market, Coty added it. The floral heart remained fundamentally the same but Coty certainly wasn't afraid to muck around

    Oh - and the oakmoss quantity? Higher than any perfume formula you have seen I guarantee it.

  26. #26

    Default Re: Lost in Amber Dimension ^^

    Most fascinating. Thank you.

    And now, back to the Amber Dimension (sorry Jano!).

  27. #27

    Default Re: Lost in Amber Dimension ^^

    This was fascinating for me too, no problem ^^
    Thanks a lot, experience and knowledge are always welcome my friends

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