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  1. #1
    Basenotes Member thomasbaldwin222's Avatar
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    Default Advice regarding the diluting of civet absolute

    Just received my 5ml of civet absolute from hermitage and I am kind of confused as to what I should do with it. I figured I would just dilute it in FCO at 1%, maybe 5%, and go from there. The material dissolves perfectly fine in FCO but, after looking into the matter, I am questioning myself- am I better off tincturing the paste into alcohol?

    I guess what I am asking for here is some direction or reassurance from those experienced in the civet world.

    Many thanks

  2. #2

    Default Re: Advice regarding the diluting of civet absolute

    I would dilute a small amount to 1% in either or both, depending on your intended final product, and if you find it not impactful enough go to 10% or if too impactful try 0.1%. The bit of civet I have is a Robertet product and it is both very beautiful and very impactful in both scent and performance.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Advice regarding the diluting of civet absolute

    Just slather it pure all over you, and go rob a bank. Or go into your office.

    1% in Ethanol is fine, and usual.
    Don't do anything in oil, so have no FCO comments.
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Advice regarding the diluting of civet absolute

    Every perfumery should have three civet strengths:

    100% pure (1% pure used in Chypre by Coty!)
    10% tincture in ethanol
    3% tincture in ethanol

    That is also true of Castoreum.

    Deer musk and ambregris I believe were seldom seen in 10% tincture and more likely to be seen as 3%. On the other hand, I have seen perfume formulas that use deer musk resin (presumably a product made by evaporating off a tincture). I just keep a 3% of both of those and use re-creations in anything I would sell. I keep the real tonkin musk and ambergris for my own use.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Advice regarding the diluting of civet absolute

    I've worked with both civet tincture and civet absolute. After a year or so, my civet tinctures--diluted to 3%, 5% and 10%--have developed the necessary aroma, which is clean, not funky or fecal. I ordered some civet absolute from Hermitage and it is not at all like the tincture; it has a deep and (to me) unpleasant funkiness not found in the tincture.
    Considering that the funk is probably butyric acid or some other carboxylic acid, I added a tiny piece of sodium hydroxide to a 5% civet absolute tinctured in alcohol. After about 2 years, the funk has finally lifted. My control (without the NaOH) still smells really funky and fecal.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Advice regarding the diluting of civet absolute

    I had civet tincture (unusually, IPM tincture but this was because it was for a cosmetic fragrance) from qt-store civet paste which was absolutely wonderful to me, no skatole smell at all, which I had at I believe 6.67%. The exact percentage didn't matter, one could use more of a weaker one or less of a stronger, obviously.

    I bought some paste from the etsy fellow who claims ethical civiculture and frankly I can't pick up anything but the skatole. I mean not anything. In a blind test I really doubt I could tell the difference, though admittedly I haven't tried that test.

    In a GC/MS of Ethiopian civet paste I saw a skatole/civetone ratio of less than 1% skatole to civetone, but for sure, comparing pure civetone to 1% skatole, the etsy civetone is far above this ratio, to my nose. The skatole swamps the civetone to where I can't perceive the latter at all. I can't see tincturing deactivating the skatole -- in neutral solution, anyway.

    I did try an attempted forced-aging experiment with Robertet civet absolute 10% in ethanol, maintaining it at 60 (!) C for three weeks and this didn't do a thing towards reducing the skatole strength.

    Personally I don't believe that the scent gland of the civet, or any mustelid, excretes skatole. It gets there inadvertently in traces from the animal's rear of course not having been scrubbed down beforehand, though if you notice most animals have very little if any poop smell even towards their back ends so I doubt much skatole transfer occurs this way compared to the odor strength of the paste, or gets there in greater amounts from caging conditions being abysmal, or even (some have said) from the farmers intentionally adding poop, honey, urine and other mystery-meat ingredients.

    So how strong the skatole note is, I think, depends greatly on the particular paste.

    I expect that back in the day the houses had their own standards and knew exactly what they wanted, which indeed obviously included some skatole note, but not just skatole, certainly.

    The etsy stuff I have, one might as well just add skatole 1% in a suitable amount, really. Which sometimes of course can help a composition.

    Interesting reaction you did there, James!! Personally I have no use whatsoever for my Robertet or the etsy stuff, so I have nothing to lose.

    The Robertet, incidentally, as Adam mentioned it, is not mere skatole, certainly and it may in fact be pretty useful in compositions, but I'm put off by my personal opinion of it having more skatole than I want. As opinion, I can better accomplish what I want with civetone and Firmenich Honey and depending on the formulation, hyraceum. But that's what I want, rather than what you may. See what it will do for you!

    On your question of FCO versus alcohol, my tincture for cosmetics went into FCO base in all testing, though in the actual product the fragrace concentrate was added to the oils used for the cream. Worked fine both ways. I do understand from others that over time, a paste may improve in ethanol whereas I doubt that that occurs as much if at all in an oil base (it might though if oxidation is the mechanism, which I don't know.)

  7. #7

    Default Re: Advice regarding the diluting of civet absolute

    Quote Originally Posted by James Peterson View Post
    I've worked with both civet tincture and civet absolute. After a year or so, my civet tinctures--diluted to 3%, 5% and 10%--have developed the necessary aroma, which is clean, not funky or fecal. I ordered some civet absolute from Hermitage and it is not at all like the tincture; it has a deep and (to me) unpleasant funkiness not found in the tincture.
    Considering that the funk is probably butyric acid or some other carboxylic acid, I added a tiny piece of sodium hydroxide to a 5% civet absolute tinctured in alcohol. After about 2 years, the funk has finally lifted. My control (without the NaOH) still smells really funky and fecal.
    interesting experiment! i'm just a little concerned that even a small piece of NaOH will change the ph value quite drastically (assuming you are working in rather small tincture-quantities, but i might be wrong of course). do you think it is ok to use this reaction-product in fine fragrances?

  8. #8

    Default Re: Advice regarding the diluting of civet absolute

    Please do wait for James' reply as he has actually done it!

    In the meantime, you are absolutely right.

    Not necessarily the best solution, but one thing if I were doing it myself I'd consider would be adding to a separatory funnel, adding perhaps 1 part IPM and 10 parts water, and shaking, then decanting the water, and washing two or three times more with neutral water.

    The aromamaterials would then be transferred to the IPM, and essentially none of the sodium hydroxide would be.

    A more elegant approach would be to choose a pH 7.0 buffering material or combination that was insoluble in ethanol and shake with that and filter, but at the moment I don't know what that would be, as for example phosphate buffer is ethanol soluble. But there almost must be something.

    Still another way is the obvious one of titrating with acid to whatever you found the pH of your perfumers alcohol to be, however, that would require a meter, or a little trickery in seeing how you might use paper or indicators in ethanol solution.
    Last edited by Bill Roberts; 19th August 2019 at 05:52 PM.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Advice regarding the diluting of civet absolute

    Quote Originally Posted by James Peterson View Post
    t absolute from Hermitage and it is not at all like the tincture; it has a deep and (to me) unpleasant funkiness not found in the tincture.
    Considering that the funk is probably butyric acid or some other carboxylic acid, I added a tiny piece of sodium hydroxide to a 5% civet absolute tinctured in alcohol. After about 2 years, the funk has finally lifted. My control (without the NaOH) still smells really funky and fecal.
    If there are funky components of butyric acid or some other carboxylic acid, these could be removed immediately by same process as above except with alkaline water.

    Sadly, skatole cannot be removed by partitioning in such a manner, and that's the problem with my stuff rather than carboxylic acids.

    It would be interesting if someone could fractionally distill, with good resolution, the absolute or a tincture.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Advice regarding the diluting of civet absolute

    i'm having the absolute from robertet too, supplied from PSH, and i actually don't get a strong scatole note from it. its mainly cheesy parmesan urine and waxy...

  11. #11

    Default Re: Advice regarding the diluting of civet absolute

    Fair descriptions that I agree with. But I do find the skatole note quite substantial, unlike my previous civet. I don't doubt at all it will work well in many compositions at low amounts, but when having my own tincture I didn't see the reason.

    What I don't pick up from it is much civetone.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Advice regarding the diluting of civet absolute

    Quote Originally Posted by pavomi View Post
    i'm having the absolute from robertet too, supplied from PSH, and i actually don't get a strong scatole note from it. its mainly cheesy parmesan urine and waxy...
    Exactly the same as mine from PSH.
    I combined my civet absolute tincture from PSH with
    A civet I bought from a Canadian supplier on Etsy.
    Apothecary Garden.

    The apothecary gardens civet paste I highly recommend.
    Itís incredibly strong.


    Together, the two civets work very nicely.
    They have been combined together in one single jar
    At 3% dilution ethanol, for 2 years.

    Very powerful stuff.
    It gives tremendous body to my accords.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Advice regarding the diluting of civet absolute

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Roberts View Post
    I had civet tincture (unusually, IPM tincture but this was because it was for a cosmetic fragrance) from qt-store civet paste which was absolutely wonderful to me, no skatole smell at all, which I had at I believe 6.67%. The exact percentage didn't matter, one could use more of a weaker one or less of a stronger, obviously.

    I bought some paste from the etsy fellow who claims ethical civiculture and frankly I can't pick up anything but the skatole. I mean not anything. In a blind test I really doubt I could tell the difference, though admittedly I haven't tried that test.

    In a GC/MS of Ethiopian civet paste I saw a skatole/civetone ratio of less than 1% skatole to civetone, but for sure, comparing pure civetone to 1% skatole, the etsy civetone is far above this ratio, to my nose. The skatole swamps the civetone to where I can't perceive the latter at all. I can't see tincturing deactivating the skatole -- in neutral solution, anyway.

    I did try an attempted forced-aging experiment with Robertet civet absolute 10% in ethanol, maintaining it at 60 (!) C for three weeks and this didn't do a thing towards reducing the skatole strength.

    Personally I don't believe that the scent gland of the civet, or any mustelid, excretes skatole. It gets there inadvertently in traces from the animal's rear of course not having been scrubbed down beforehand, though if you notice most animals have very little if any poop smell even towards their back ends so I doubt much skatole transfer occurs this way compared to the odor strength of the paste, or gets there in greater amounts from caging conditions being abysmal, or even (some have said) from the farmers intentionally adding poop, honey, urine and other mystery-meat ingredients.

    So how strong the skatole note is, I think, depends greatly on the particular paste.

    I expect that back in the day the houses had their own standards and knew exactly what they wanted, which indeed obviously included some skatole note, but not just skatole, certainly.

    The etsy stuff I have, one might as well just add skatole 1% in a suitable amount, really. Which sometimes of course can help a composition.

    Interesting reaction you did there, James!! Personally I have no use whatsoever for my Robertet or the etsy stuff, so I have nothing to lose.

    The Robertet, incidentally, as Adam mentioned it, is not mere skatole, certainly and it may in fact be pretty useful in compositions, but I'm put off by my personal opinion of it having more skatole than I want. As opinion, I can better accomplish what I want with civetone and Firmenich Honey and depending on the formulation, hyraceum. But that's what I want, rather than what you may. See what it will do for you!

    On your question of FCO versus alcohol, my tincture for cosmetics went into FCO base in all testing, though in the actual product the fragrace concentrate was added to the oils used for the cream. Worked fine both ways. I do understand from others that over time, a paste may improve in ethanol whereas I doubt that that occurs as much if at all in an oil base (it might though if oxidation is the mechanism, which I don't know.)
    Oh sir, we have purchased from the same supplier! I found it a challenge to work with and dilutes the paste to a 10% in both oil and alcohol.... it literally scented anything it was near: if had paper near it, and later picked it up... yup, i would smell it. I'm diluting now to 1% and will see if it makes it more bearable. It should improve in both an oil or ETOH base, but in different ways - I don't use FCO as a main base but a blend that includes Jojoba, Rice Bran, and Frankincense resin. That said, the 10% dilution was worlds better than the "paste" I received... which also had hairs in it... hahaha it was so gross but i just went with it.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Advice regarding the diluting of civet absolute

    The paste is raw, unprocessed civet.
    You'll need to dilute and filter to use it.

    1% - 5% is probably the best idea....
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Advice regarding the diluting of civet absolute

    Quote Originally Posted by mewmew View Post
    Oh sir, we have purchased from the same supplier! I found it a challenge to work with and dilutes the paste to a 10% in both oil and alcohol.... it literally scented anything it was near: if had paper near it, and later picked it up... yup, i would smell it. I'm diluting now to 1% and will see if it makes it more bearable. It should improve in both an oil or ETOH base, but in different ways - I don't use FCO as a main base but a blend that includes Jojoba, Rice Bran, and Frankincense resin. That said, the 10% dilution was worlds better than the "paste" I received... which also had hairs in it... hahaha it was so gross but i just went with it.
    Yes, as Paul said when working with civet paste a dilution is generally or always below 10%, about 3% is very common, and then commonly one still uses it only something like 10 ppt or 1% of the overall formula.

    No problem with your now diluting it to only 1% -- it stlll won't take up more than a few percent of your overall formula if even that.

    EDIT: Researching other threads, Jamie said that 10% is the most common in formulas, and I can guarantee you that anytime what I said differs from Jamie, I'm the one who didn't know as much, so please take Jamie's figure. You're still fine at 1%.

    What I was looking for was whether or not Ethiopian civet paste is typically adulterated. I didn't find the specific post I was looking for but did find this:

    Quote Originally Posted by gecko214 View Post
    I have been following this conversation (now revived by Mumsy) and I wonder if you have an update? How is the tincture turning out? Did you find a way to grind up the past? What did you use?

    I just received some civet from a producer in Thailand and I am wondering about strengths. There seems to be two schools of thought on basenotes, one is 5% (50gm/liter) and one is 1% (10 grams per liter) for tincturing. Profumo seems to use the latter. And the antique book at 1 oz per (US?) gallon (128 ozs) would be less than 1%, no? A bit confusing and daunting since I get only one shot at getting his right...

    What I have is triple shrink-wrapped in plastic with an inner bag and just taking one layer off, without opening it, I can smell it and it is incredibly powerful stuff. I can't imagine the need for 50 grams per liter, but maybe this is standard? Also, this one is pure whereas I have been told by my fiend who lives in Ethiopia, and who has investigated there for me, the stuff there even the dealers say is adulterated by the farmers at an unknown percentage.
    I'm entirely open to the idea that my wonderful stuff, which was Ethiopian, differed because of happening to have less or no poo mixed in, or perhaps with biological variation happened to have more of one or more natural sweet materials, or perhaps had a favorable additional adulteration giving the fine sweetness which differed from any other sweetness I've found yet. If so, sure wish I know what it was. I plan to see if adding trace p-cresyl phenylacetate, which could occur naturally in civet, to Robertet absolute or to tincture of AG paste can replicate what I had before, it seems possible though my impression before doing is it that that will come out quite different. Firmenich Honey seems more promising, though obviously would be trying to replicate adulteration rather than natural.

    But it's been said that the Ethiopians have long adulterated with honey, so it may be legit, in that sense, to do so.
    Last edited by Bill Roberts; 30th August 2019 at 06:25 PM.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Advice regarding the diluting of civet absolute

    Actually I meant to put this on another thread, the one asking about sweetness in civet, but once here, so be it I suppose. Some great posts from others well worth reading for anyone interested in civet:

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe C View Post
    I was recently reading an interview with Thierry Wasser (Guerlain) where he mentioned that since the dissapearence of nitro musks and the alteration of bergamot that its harder to balance a large dose of civet. So maybe the trick is to create a musk blend which better accomodates the civet (easier said than done of course).
    Quote Originally Posted by luigi_g View Post
    in higher quality civet, cyclopentadecanone, a.k.a. exaltone is found in much higher quantities than civetone, in some cases 20 times the amount of civetone,
    and in some farms, dihydrocivetone is second after exaltone.
    Note, that differs from a GC/MS I have, but that's not to say that the sample in that one GC/MS was any particular grade of civet paste. Another GC/MS -- http://www.jocpr.com/articles/quanti...-by-gas-ch.pdf -- does show more Exaltone (normuscone) for civet pastes from males and from mixed males plus females. Also, personally while I suppose I'd put Exaltone in my top three musks, I don't think it's particularly the answer to greatness nor do I prefer it to civetone. I do prefer a blend to either alone. I do not have dihydrocivetone.

    Quote Originally Posted by luigi_g View Post
    very diluted skatole will have a certain floral aspect,

    but to your question, as far as the sweetness and the main floral notes,
    think about auto-degradation and esterfication, then check out those fatty acids I included in my above post. [butyric acid, isobutyric acid, propionic acid, isovaleric acid and valeric acid]
    those are only a few of the total of fatty acids....

    I would also suspect that there would be much higher quantities of the macrocyclic ketone corresponding alcohols,
    but as a general rule those alcohols have little or no odor profile.


    Quote Originally Posted by jfrater View Post
    I know it's an old thread but seeing as someone brought it back to the top I have to comment: how could you not love civet in huge doses?!? Chypre by Coty had 1% civet and it is truly a work of art. It is one of the most beautiful uses of civet ever. As the rest of the fragrance fades the civet emerges in its full glory smelling like nothing else in perfumery. It is one of the most magical of all ingredients. Synthetics can be very lovely (Nuit de Chine is a good example of skatole in high doses working beautifully) but civet has something very special about it which is just not replaceable.

    As for "old lady smell" - if old ladies smell like perfumes like Chypre I would happily sit next to one in any restaurant or theatre!

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Advice regarding the diluting of civet absolute

    Civettone falls into the smell similar family of musks that also contain Silvanone Supra, Muscone, Laevo Muscone, and Exaltone.
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
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    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Advice regarding the diluting of civet absolute

    How is the civet diluting going for everyone?

    Have purchased from several suppliers... the best was from years ago.
    I was able to get 1 oz not long ago which is tinctured to 10%. I did not mix with other substances. Further dilution is done in its use. I have also done the old formula with orris powder and rose... it's a personal treasure.

    There is success in carrier oil with intention

  19. #19

    Default Re: Advice regarding the diluting of civet absolute

    Hi,
    I just recieved raw civet paste from Ethiopia which is actually very fecal and nauseating by its smell. I heard it is to be diluted in ethanol, hexane or acetone in 10% ratio. I just did that also got a civet absolute by solvent extraction. But it still smells fecal, only this time the smell is less compared to earlier matter. Is it true that the fecal smell is due to Skatole and Indole present in it. Can anybody guide me on this one as how to get the true civet smell out of the Absolute i have got.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Advice regarding the diluting of civet absolute

    Yes, Skatole is the poopy smell.

    Do not dissolve into hexane, nor acetone. Use Ethyl Alcohol.

    The "True Civet smell", . . . . how do you define what you seek?
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

  21. #21

    Default Re: Advice regarding the diluting of civet absolute

    If you want to wait a bit, on my to-do list is reacting Robertet civet absolute with methyl anthranilate to, I hope, convert the skatole to the corresponding Schiff base, which should reduce fecal odor intensity. The reaction would go a little less well with an ethanol tincture of civet paste but if it works with the absolute, it will work to some extent with the tincture.

    Some degree of skatole note is going to be naturally present in civet. Unfortunately I believe that many or most civet pastes are adultered with added excrement (as well as potentially other materials, honey has been named), as that's part of the "desired" smell of it by many. I do not believe that the scent gland or any tissue of any mammal produces skatole, but it's plausible that as the animal rubs its rear end against a post or tree, etc, some residual feces trace may get on there. But as most animals do not have visible poop hanging off their butts most of the time, I suspect that's rather little. A GC/MS I have found of authentic material collected specifically for the study had skatole content only 1% that of civetone content, if I recall correctly. Though as skatole has higher odor intensity than civetone, that's still a significant contribution.

    Many perfume formulas benefit from a degree of skatole note, believe it or not. Starting from near-zero concentration and increasing from there, a floral effect first appears, and then as levels increase a poopy effect.

    I have tinctured paste successfully in IPM (where the final product was going to be in oil for a cosmetic), ethanol, and Augeo Clean Multi -- the last having been done for absolutely no intelligible reason, just a strange idea of the moment.

    If you want only the musk aspect, buy civetone. But the musk aspect is only part of the civet smell and probably not the most important in most applications. For example, I have never heard of anyone considering any pure musk ingredient to be a substitute for civet. Nor do all civet bases include a musk.

    EDIT: Here are the results from that GC/MS:

    https://journalcra.com/sites/default...-pdf/11357.pdf

    Attachment 104438
    Attachment 104440

    The 3-methylindole is skatole.

    BTW, I had some hope that the squalene might be a useful contributor to a civet accord, as it's present in substantial percentage (as are the acids but they didn't seem candidates) and I thought it possible, but I no longer did after acquiring a sample. My guess is the sample had a trace of oxidation yielding slight fishy or rancid odor, with the squalene itself apparently being completely odorless, if it was not the source of the fishy odor. The material was nutritional supplement grade, not a fragrance grade if there even is such a thing for that material.
    Last edited by Bill Roberts; 14th February 2020 at 02:19 AM.

  22. #22

    Default Re: Advice regarding the diluting of civet absolute

    Hi,
    Thanks for the reply, Actually i have pure civet from my friend which is very animalistic and fragranty. May i know how can the i get the animalistic musky aroma from the civet absolute i have got by solvent extraction of the raw paste. Yes i have an absolute got from ethanol and then by solvent extraction. How can i get the musky aroma from it.

  23. #23

    Default Re: Advice regarding the diluting of civet absolute

    hi,
    I already have the pure civet got through normal extraction i.e by the civet rubbing its perenial glands to the bamboo stick kept inside its cage. After a week or so of the civet rubbing the scent to the bamboo stick, it is scrapped and collected and kept in the sun. As a result civet musk which is musky and dark brown is got. Its smell is very animalistic too. Need help to get the same one from the Civet Absolute which i have got by solvent extraction by Ethanol.
    I Just need to know if there is any process further to purify it or is any thing else is to be added to it. I heard Orris Root powder is to be added. Would appreciate any advice on this one.

  24. #24

    Default Re: Advice regarding the diluting of civet absolute

    My Robertet Civet Absolute does not smell the same as the civet tinctures I have made and I wouldn't know what to add to it for it to do so. For some time I was not happy with Robertet Absolute but with time I discovered that was because I did not know how to use it. It can work well in formulas, even if by itself it doesn't seem right based on a personal standard that one came to from something else.

    I started with qt-store civet paste tinctured in IPM and was extremely happy with that and judged the Robertet by that, but usefulness in formulas can be a more useful standard to judge by.

    You may not be talking about the Robertet Absolute though, as it sounds as if what you mean is the ethanol tincture you made.

    If it doesn't smell very similar to the paste, perhaps it did not tincture long enough?

    The purpose of orris root powder in this application is that the molecules in the past will have a hard time (very long path to follow relative to size of molecules) to diffuse from bulk paste to the ethanol. Adsorbing it onto powder enormously increases surface area and decreases the distance molecules will have to diffuse. This needs to be done before adding to the ethanol.

    I have tinctured successfully while omitting that by employing sonication and heat (60 C) to speed the process.

    Another option is to use a differeng material such as a silica designed to adsorb oils. I mixed the civet paste with the silica until I had a free flowing powder and tinctured that.

  25. #25

    Default Re: Advice regarding the diluting of civet absolute

    Thanks for the advice. What i want to ask is, what do i do with the civet absolute that i got after solvent extraction in Acetone. It still smells fecal. Do i have to again dilute it in ethanol at 10% or 20%. And also is there any thing i have to add to it to get that civet musky odor.

  26. #26

    Default Re: Advice regarding the diluting of civet absolute

    Thank you for the guidance, got some doubts to be cleared.

    First, how long should the Absolute be tinctured in order to remove the fecal odor.

    Second, about orris root powder, would it be ok to add it to the raw paste itself i.e before adding ethanol to the raw paste. Will it separate the bee wax, butter and other impurities like its done by solvent extraction in Ethanol.

    Third, What is the ratio of Silica to be used for the raw civet paste.

  27. #27

    Default Re: Advice regarding the diluting of civet absolute

    I am not sure on the terminology you mean.

    The Robertet product is labeled as an absolute and doesn't need tincturing.

    I would understand extracting with ethanol and evaporating off the ethanol and calling that an absolute. I doubt there would be a point in tincturing that. However, I also doubt that a quick extraction would get everything from the paste.

    If the ethanol wasn't evaporated off of that extraction then I don't understand calling it an absolute or understand further tincturing it.

    I tried an idea of accelerated-aging of Robertet Civet Absolute in alcohol at I think 60 C and don't recall how much time I allowed, about a month, and this had zero effect on fecal odor.

    Comparing 60 C to 20 C, reactions go roughly 16 times faster so that should have been the equivalent of a year or more of aging. But it proved pointless.

    Yes, the orris is added to the paste before adding ethanol, to allow the civet paste to present much more surface area to the ethanol.

    I don't recall how much oil-adsorbent silica I used. I used about the minimum needed to give a free flowing powder, adding more as needed. It was certainly at least 1/4 the weight of the paste and certainly no more than equal weight to the paste.

    You would want to check the silca's specs for oil adsorption. It should be rated to adsorb about 4 times its own weight in oil (I'm sure 3x would also work acceptably.)

    Silica not intended for oil adsorption would probably be near useless.

  28. #28

    Default Re: Advice regarding the diluting of civet absolute

    Now iam sure you understood how i got the process of getting the absolute. I think the tincture itself must be kept for a long period before evaporating the Ethanol in order for the removal of the fecal odor.

    Also i would see if i can procure the Robertet Product just to know how different is it from the product i have extracted. I went through the products profile and he also has described the absolute as fecal in odor.

    Maybe there is a secret in getting the musky, floral scent to the absolute. Since a lot of the musk is exported to France from Ethiopia, they must be having the idea of its very basic usuage and achieving its floral musky scent. Please do pass on any info if you have on any person from that background so that i can approach them personnaly on this one.




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