Code of Conduct
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 35
  1. #1

    Default Niche market collapsing?

    Creed is releasing Viking?
    Amouage is releasing a Beach Hut?

    Parfums de Marly is making a flanker of Layton?
    Andy Tauer is making a flanker of l'Air du Desert Marocain?
    Acqua di Parma is releasing flanker after flanker after flanker of their Ingredient collection?
    So niche is going into the flanker territory?

    What about niche cloning designer fragrances?

    Acqua di Parma, under the umbrella of designer giant LVMH, is releasing a $475 opera line?
    Isn't this fake luxury? Fake niche?

    Estée Lauder bought Frederic Malle?
    LVMH acquires Maison Francis Kurkdjian?

    What about the insane pricing structure of some niche brands?
    Roja Dove?
    Stephane Humbert Lucas?

    What about all these "new" brands that keep appearing on the market?
    What about the insane volumes they push on the market?

    When is the bubble going to burst?

  2. #2
    Smellcheck
    Cook.bot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Carolinas
    Posts
    1,696

    Default Re: Niche market collapsing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Suppressor View Post
    When is the bubble going to burst?
    Have been wondering the same thing. It seems almost inevitable.

  3. #3
    hednic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Reside in McLean, Va. Manhattan NYC, Manuel Antonio Costa Rica & Búzios Brasil
    Posts
    228,955

    Default Re: Niche market collapsing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Suppressor View Post
    When is the bubble going to burst?
    Hopefully not until after I kick the bucket.
    Remember that while it is perfectly acceptable to criticize the content of a post - criticizing the poster is not.
    Mean spirited, nasty, snide, sarcastic, hateful, and rude individuals on Basenotes don't warrant or deserve my or other Basenoters' acknowledgement or respect.

  4. #4
    Dependent kswer's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    California
    Posts
    3,603

    Default Re: Niche market collapsing?

    Papillon Perfumery, Masque Milano, Bogue Profumo, Areej le Dore, niche seems fine to me!

  5. #5

    Default Re: Niche market collapsing?

    I don't think there is such a thing as a "niche" market. It's all just fragrance market. No, the niche market is not collapsing because it never was a thing.
    wardrobe fav's: cdg eau de cologne • amber saffron clean • heretic amulet • azemour les orangers • santo incienso • guerlain lui • black gemstone • feu secret • guilty absolute • tenebrae • cuir d'ange hermes • santa maria novella patchouli • prada luna fossa carbon • rose de taif • baccarat rouge 540 extrait • oud wood intense • winter nights

  6. #6
    Basenotes Plus

    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    385

    Default Re: Niche market collapsing?

    Not defending the practice, but I see similarities in other industries.

    For example, how many remakes is Hollywood going to make....King Kong, Sharknados, Ghostbusters, etc. They view these franchises as having "built-in", existing fans. Name recognition and all. The hope is this translates into ticket sales.

    The other comparison we can make is with tech startups - they often find a niche market or opportunity area the big orgs have not identified. When the new startups begin encroaching in existing market segments, the big guys acquire them (i.e. Estee, LVMH).

    Probably a lot of pressure on niche producers to find new revenue streams, the obvious choice is flankers. I understand that, but it can discredit the original line if taken too far. It happens with good product and inferior product flankers. For instance, I enjoy 1872 Vetiver, but this flanker is no longer available (frustrating); Hugo Boss has so many I gave up trying them.

    In summary, I belief there is a very limited market segment that will pay $400+ for niche turned designer fragrances. Besides affordability, who but true afficiandos can keep up with so many flankers?

    Just my .02
    Currently wearing: Royal Mayfair by Creed

  7. #7
    Dependent pluran's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Carmel, CA
    Posts
    9,540

    Default Re: Niche market collapsing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Suppressor View Post
    ........What about all these "new" brands that keep appearing on the market?
    What about the insane volumes they push on the market?...........
    Bad taste creates a lot more millionaires than good taste, and rich people are always looking for new things to spend their money on. Perfume revolves around five things, m-o-n-e-y (niche, small artisan perfumers, whatever). It's great to see some of these artisan type perfumers having real interest and curiosity and actually making some good things, but 95% of what's made is overpriced, unnecessary crap.

    ------- "How do you feel about the state of contemporary "commercial" fragrance? Will the rise of niche and boutique fragrance force change to the landscape? Also, the niche market has exploded, and many fragrances are indistinguishable from commercial scents."

    Bertrand Duchaufour:

    "Here there isn’t a hard line, a tangible border between commercial fragrances and niche products. That means you can find the more horrible copy in a so-called niche brand and a very original innovative accord in a very commercial launch. Very difficult to point precisely as to the exact character of a new launched fragrance because, it is increasingly rare to distinguish between them.

    I am sure of one thing: time is the best judge of a fragrance. If Perfumery is to remain an Art, it will be those fragrances that compel us based on quality and originality, not necessarily label or price.

    Chanel and Guerlain have introduced niche extensions, some may be very good, yet I believe they should return to their roots....."
    Last edited by pluran; 13th August 2017 at 11:22 AM.

  8. #8
    Newbie
    Diamondflame's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Singapore
    Posts
    11,635
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: Niche market collapsing?

    Overheated perhaps but collapsing? No. The industry is still growing, with new market sub-segments forming. Even the home fragrance brands like Cire Trudon is joining the fray.

    The losers are players who sit on their arses wondering where the good old days went. 'Niche' exists only in the minds. How your brand and value proposition stack up against those of your rivals will ultimately decide your fate. Some brands seem cultivated to attract the buy outs while others are big into authenticity. They all have their audience. It's the laggards with too infrequent releases who will languish and be promptly forgotten under the onslaught of new brands/fragrances.
    Currently wearing: 11 by Le Cherche Midi

  9. #9
    Dependent hitman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Location
    Dubai-UAE
    Posts
    5,216

    Default Re: Niche market collapsing?

    in my opinion, it is "wavy" market in nature (may be like all others?) ups and downs are part of the business. coming and going, diving and merging, starting and quitting all are the part of game. May be it is a "wave trough" phase.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Still looking for Big Bottle of Muscs Koublaï Khän by Serge Lutens
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  10. #10
    Basenotes Institution dougczar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    28,275

    Default Re: Niche market collapsing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Suppressor View Post
    Creed is releasing Viking?
    Amouage is releasing a Beach Hut?

    Parfums de Marly is making a flanker of Layton?
    Andy Tauer is making a flanker of l'Air du Desert Marocain?
    Acqua di Parma is releasing flanker after flanker after flanker of their Ingredient collection?
    So niche is going into the flanker territory?

    What about niche cloning designer fragrances?

    Acqua di Parma, under the umbrella of designer giant LVMH, is releasing a $475 opera line?
    Isn't this fake luxury? Fake niche?

    Estée Lauder bought Frederic Malle?
    LVMH acquires Maison Francis Kurkdjian?

    What about the insane pricing structure of some niche brands?
    Roja Dove?
    Stephane Humbert Lucas?

    What about all these "new" brands that keep appearing on the market?
    What about the insane volumes they push on the market?

    When is the bubble going to burst?
    You start by mentioning 2 very highly anticipated releases... as a signal that the market is collapsing?
    You mention flankers - a signal of strength - as a signal that the market is collapsing?
    You mention Roja Dove and SHL pricing - which are indeed extremely high - as a signal that the market is collapsing? Wouldn't it be slashing prices that would indicate trouble in the market?

    You talk about the AdP Opera line being $475 and ask if it's "fake luxury". How do you know if you haven't smelled them?


    Based on the examples you provided, you have put down a great case that the "niche" (?) market is thriving.

    Quote Originally Posted by Buzzlepuff View Post
    I don't think there is such a thing as a "niche" market. It's all just fragrance market. No, the niche market is not collapsing because it never was a thing.
    Agreed. In fact, isn't the fact that OP mentions large volumes and a "bubble" a bit antithetical to the whole concept of "niche"?


    Quote Originally Posted by Diamondflame View Post
    The losers are players who sit on their arses wondering where the good old days went. 'Niche' exists only in the minds.
    Exactly.


    Manufacturers who dislike new competition will throw ad-hominem attacks at the new players, and fragrance enthusiasts who can't or don't want to keep up will disparage the new ones (usually without feeling the need to even try them first). Like people who haven't turned on a radio in 10 years complaining about today's music not being as good as it was when they were teenagers. Because whatever you listened to when you were 17-21 is always the best music.
    Current Winter Favorites:

    1. House of Matriarch - Blackbird
    2. Brückner - Aoud 1
    3. Creed - Royal Oud
    4. Stéphane Humbert Lucas 777 - Generation Man
    5. Armani Privé - Oud Royal
    6. by Kilian - Straight to Heaven
    7. Stéphane Humbert Lucas 777 - Mortal Skin
    8. Ormonde Jayne - Black Gold
    9. Creed - Royal English Leather
    10. by Kilian - Cruel Intentions

  11. #11

    Default Re: Niche market collapsing?

    Interested to see the price evolution (s) this may lead to

  12. #12

    Default Re: Niche market collapsing?

    Quote Originally Posted by dougczar View Post
    You start by mentioning 2 very highly anticipated releases... as a signal that the market is collapsing?
    You mention flankers - a signal of strength - as a signal that the market is collapsing?
    You mention Roja Dove and SHL pricing - which are indeed extremely high - as a signal that the market is collapsing? Wouldn't it be slashing prices that would indicate trouble in the market?

    You talk about the AdP Opera line being $475 and ask if it's "fake luxury". How do you know if you haven't smelled them?


    Based on the examples you provided, you have put down a great case that the "niche" (?) market is thriving.



    Agreed. In fact, isn't the fact that OP mentions large volumes and a "bubble" a bit antithetical to the whole concept of "niche"?
    Highly anticipated releases with a tacky, distasteful name.
    Vikings and beach huts, this is insane. Things are getting ugly.

    Flankers to me are not a signal of strength.
    It is a signal of uncertainty, afraid to release something that is new and out there.
    Like a bunch of cowards, they keep using a successful formula, adding microvariations to it.

    Roja Dove and SHL are setting a price that is incredibly high, and other houses are jumping on that bandwagon.
    The prices keep rising in the niche segment, this can only lead to a crash in these volumes.
    An oversaturated market can not go hand in hand with increasing prices.

    The opera line is a marketing ploy, it is simply not realistic and shows disrespect for potential customers.
    Have you read about people trying these fragrances? On Basenotes / Fragrantica / Youtube?
    No, and this is no coincidence.

    Niche is all about exclusivity, scarcity, something special.
    Now that the big corporations have mixed in, all of that is gone.
    It is one big milking operation, pure greed, this segment is becoming a joke.

    As you say, the market is thriving at the moment, but the crash is coming.

  13. #13
    Basenotes Institution dougczar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    28,275

    Default Re: Niche market collapsing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Suppressor View Post

    Flankers to me are not a signal of strength.
    It is a signal of uncertainty, afraid to release something that is new and out there.
    Like a bunch of cowards, they keep using a successful formula, adding microvariations to it.
    Shalimar has over 30 flankers. Habit Rouge has about 16 flankers. I wouldn't get too worked up over a stray occasional niche flanker, when Designers - even the over-revered Guerlain has been the master of flankers for years.

    Poor sellers don't get flankers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Suppressor View Post
    The prices keep rising in the niche segment, this can only lead to a crash in these volumes.

    The opera line is a marketing ploy, it is simply not realistic and shows disrespect for potential customers.
    Have you read about people trying these fragrances? On Basenotes / Fragrantica / Youtube?
    No, and this is no coincidence.
    As soon as volumes fall, prices will too. Free market corrections. As far as the Opera line, I would love to try them... I don't know where they are however. It isn't the price that is preventing people from trying them here on Basenotes, it's that I don't think it's available yet.



    Quote Originally Posted by Suppressor View Post
    Niche is all about exclusivity, scarcity, something special.
    Now that the big corporations have mixed in, all of that is gone.
    It is one big milking operation, pure greed, this segment is becoming a joke.
    Yes, niche IS about exclusivity. And since the demand is growing like crazy, they are raising the prices to keep it that way. But you say the price increase is a sign it's about to collapse. I say it's necessary to avoid becoming mainstream. The price increase is a sign of strength in the segment. While it may leave a bad taste in your mouth, it is exactly what seems to be necessary to maintain your definition of "niche" above - because it is so healthy of a segment.

    Will it eventually taper off? Maybe.
    "Collapse"? Not likely. What do you base a collapse on, other than you think there is too much out there and too high of a price?
    Current Winter Favorites:

    1. House of Matriarch - Blackbird
    2. Brückner - Aoud 1
    3. Creed - Royal Oud
    4. Stéphane Humbert Lucas 777 - Generation Man
    5. Armani Privé - Oud Royal
    6. by Kilian - Straight to Heaven
    7. Stéphane Humbert Lucas 777 - Mortal Skin
    8. Ormonde Jayne - Black Gold
    9. Creed - Royal English Leather
    10. by Kilian - Cruel Intentions

  14. #14
    Smellcheck
    Cook.bot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Carolinas
    Posts
    1,696

    Default Re: Niche market collapsing?

    Quote Originally Posted by hednic View Post
    Hopefully not until after I kick the bucket.
    Hednic, when you kick the bucket, it will probably CAUSE the fragrance market to collapse!


  15. #15
    Basenotes Institution sjg3839's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    35,316

    Default Re: Niche market collapsing?

    Don't see a decline as long as people are buying.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Niche market collapsing?

    Quote Originally Posted by kswer View Post
    Papillon Perfumery, Masque Milano, Bogue Profumo, Areej le Dore, niche seems fine to me!
    Haven't tried Papillon yet but I'd like to add Bruno Fazzolari, UNUM, Zoologist and Beaufort to the list.
    Currently wearing: Bayolea by Penhaligon's

  17. #17
    Moderator
    rum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Land of the Chypre
    Posts
    9,945

    Default Re: Niche market collapsing?

    The OP had me a little dazed with all those questions!

    But I really liked this answer to the question of 'when is the bubble going to burst?':

    Quote Originally Posted by hednic View Post
    Hopefully not until after I kick the bucket.
    Currently wearing: Casbah by Robert Piguet

  18. #18
    Dependent Possum-Pie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Downwind from Gettysburg
    Posts
    5,919
    Blog Entries
    19

    Default Re: Niche market collapsing?

    The world went through a major financial restructuring after 9/11. DOT-Coms crashed, markets around the globe plunged. We have been on a recovery for the last several years. My stock/mutual fund portfolios have JUST started making money again in the past several years. The luxury market follows much more slowly. People who have lost thousands of dollars/pounds on paper are not really keen on buying a $400 bottle of perfume. As the markets stabalize, the luxuries begin selling more. Handbags interestingly are a good indicator of luxury recovery. The chatter on the street about handbags is the outrageous price increases. This is b/c people want them again. People want luxury frags again, and the prices are creeping up. There is NO increase in cost of ingredients, there is no logical reason for the sweeping price increases except the demand has increased.

    Saying the quality of "Niche" has dropped is illogical. There are always a small number of excellent, small number of horrible, and huge number of average smelling frags. You can't cherry pick a few horrible frags and say the market is collapsing. In fact statistics show a very large increase in money spent on small house fragrances in the past 5 years.
    [SIZE=]See my Sale thread for partial bottles/samples Zoology, Penhaligon, Montale, marc de la morandiere, many others! [/SIZE]
    Currently wearing: Viking by Creed

  19. #19

    Default Re: Niche market collapsing?

    Much like "vintage" and "bespoke", I can see how the word "niche" has become over-used for the cache of individuality it offers: one-off exclusivity through a business model that masquerades as independent (whether or not it actually is). The more word-of-mouth something is, the more people want it to speak volumes about their conspicuous consumption. But niche - either as a way of perfumery or even just as a marketing gimmick - will never really expire. There will always be outliers to the mainstream houses that create and get their product onto peoples shelves by whatever means they can manage. Sometimes, what is percieved as "exclusivity" is purely because a house can't find better distribution for their product

    Granted, there is a lot of trend-chasing going on with many houses. Some are doing flankers to excess. Some are inflating their prices hoping it'll inflate their brand-parity (a bubble in and of itself). Some are playing it safe, using superstar notes of the moment (anyone remember oud?....). But in the opposite direction, other houses are being daring with their perfumery, marketing and entire business models, sensing there is always a desire for something more....

    It's also not so much an issue of the "niche" bubble bursting as it will be various "sub-bubbles" within that sector, reshaped by changing tastes and the financial spending power of consumers. And more critically, where those consumers come from. It's accepted wisdom that the Northern hemisphere is where a lot of worldwide spending power is concentrated. And so it follows, that tastes will be - largely - dictated by what is filtered through that region, even if we are a globalised world now. But as this evolves, and greater growth is seen in other parts of the world experiencing new economic power, their tastes - through their own exports - will exert greater influence on perfumery as a whole.
    Last edited by EasyToAssemble; 14th August 2017 at 01:42 PM.
    Currently wearing: Ambra Nera by Ortigia

  20. #20

    Default Re: Niche market collapsing?

    I would like to share my thoughts on this fundamental topic - based on the fact that my perfumer father Yuri Gutsatz - who made all his career at Roure Bertrand before founding Le Jardin Retrouvé - wrote extensively on the topic in the 60's, 70's and 80's: he theorized what has now become known as "niche" and then went to create the very first "niche" Maison de Parfum in 1975.
    He considered that there were four major elements that defined what at the time was called "third perfumery" or "parallel perfumery":
    1. Freedom of creation left to the perfumer
    2. Using only the very best natural ingredients (and of course whatever synthetics needed to create modern fragrances) - which means no cost cutting when it comes to quality
    3. The refusal of being driven by marketing
    4. Coming up with affordable perfumes (I will discuss this topic later)

    The evolution of niche over the last 30 years has been huge but these 4 criteria are still valid and they show us that "niche" has become an open house and that a clarification should be made.
    Perfumer Mathilde Laurent (Cartier) in Nez, la revue olfactive says "Niche has no legitimacy to stand for creation. Niche has no expertise and above all it is now a real mishmash of true creations, of cynism, of impersonation"...
    SHE IS RIGHT and I think it is time to clear up things.

    This leads me to a few questions that should be answered:
    Question1: which brands leave total freedom of creation (and pricing of ingredients) to the perfumers they work with?

    Question 2: how many "niche" brands work with in-house perfumers or independent perfumers?

    Question 3: which "niche" brands refuse the well-known fundamentals of marketing in perfumes like flankers (remember the invention of flankers: when one doesn't know why a perfume is a success, when millions are spent in marketing to launch perfumes no one knows the potential of, then flankers of a success were the genius solution) ?

    I would love having your feedback on these questions!!

  21. #21

    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    England
    Posts
    3,940

    Default Re: Niche market collapsing?

    Whether you call it "niche" or "exclusive" or "artisan," I think the market seems to be flourishing. There will always be ebbs and flows - and flows between the more exclusive and mainstream markets as the mainstream gets word of interesting exclusive perfumes (thinking of recent London Times article about the new Malle release Superstitious).

    We could disagree all day about the definition of niche, but it seems clear that several years ago perfume companies and designers realized that they could profit from offering separate lines that were more expensive and harder to find than the usual stuff in the department stores (earliest examples were Chanel and Dior), and now everyone from Van Cleef & Arpels to Bulgari is doing it. To me those are niche, because they appeal to a particular market, and that market seems to be booming.

    The smaller artisans like Tauer and Papillon are still putting out good and interesting stuff, and there seem to be new ones all the time (Luca Turin's most recent Perfumes I Love blog was discovering loads of them before he abruptly ended it). I don't think a flanker (like the new Coeur du Desert) indicates collapse at all. I wonder how it will sell, given that it's a bit more expensive than LADDM (and I seriously can't smell the difference despite several side by side testings), but I don't think it signals trouble.

    What I'm really interested in is how the already-more-exclusive niche brands, like Serge Lutens, are doing with their ultra-exclusive lines that are even more expensive. For a while it seemed this trend would take off. Malle did it with The Night, Jo Malone did it with its higher-tier ranges, etc., but that all seems to have gone a bit quiet, although I'm not following so closely anymore.

  22. #22
    Dependent Possum-Pie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Downwind from Gettysburg
    Posts
    5,919
    Blog Entries
    19

    Default Re: Niche market collapsing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Michel Gutsatz View Post
    I would like to share my thoughts on this fundamental topic - based on the fact that my perfumer father Yuri Gutsatz - who made all his career at Roure Bertrand before founding Le Jardin Retrouvé - wrote extensively on the topic in the 60's, 70's and 80's: he theorized what has now become known as "niche" and then went to create the very first "niche" Maison de Parfum in 1975.
    He considered that there were four major elements that defined what at the time was called "third perfumery" or "parallel perfumery":
    1. Freedom of creation left to the perfumer
    2. Using only the very best natural ingredients (and of course whatever synthetics needed to create modern fragrances) - which means no cost cutting when it comes to quality
    3. The refusal of being driven by marketing
    4. Coming up with affordable perfumes (I will discuss this topic later)

    The evolution of niche over the last 30 years has been huge but these 4 criteria are still valid and they show us that "niche" has become an open house and that a clarification should be made.
    Perfumer Mathilde Laurent (Cartier) in Nez, la revue olfactive says "Niche has no legitimacy to stand for creation. Niche has no expertise and above all it is now a real mishmash of true creations, of cynism, of impersonation"...
    SHE IS RIGHT and I think it is time to clear up things.

    This leads me to a few questions that should be answered:
    Question1: which brands leave total freedom of creation (and pricing of ingredients) to the perfumers they work with?

    Question 2: how many "niche" brands work with in-house perfumers or independent perfumers?

    Question 3: which "niche" brands refuse the well-known fundamentals of marketing in perfumes like flankers (remember the invention of flankers: when one doesn't know why a perfume is a success, when millions are spent in marketing to launch perfumes no one knows the potential of, then flankers of a success were the genius solution) ?

    I would love having your feedback on these questions!!
    Thank you on your wonderful input! The third question is indeed key to knowing niche/small house fragrances. Many of the famous perfumers of the world admit that their greatest creations are often hidden from public eye b/c the large houses only want SAFE frags for their clients. The department store fragrances are made for the "sheep" who blindly buy what smells generic, safe, and maybe get them compliments. Civet? Strange notes? NEVER! We want safe polite fragrances for the masses. The Large houses tell the masses what they should buy. I've always dreamed of a day when the world's best noses get together and say "Screw what the big houses want" we will present the niche world with what WE think is a great fragrance. They should create their own niche house with the best of the best noses contributing their work with no stipulations or restrictions.
    [SIZE=]See my Sale thread for partial bottles/samples Zoology, Penhaligon, Montale, marc de la morandiere, many others! [/SIZE]
    Currently wearing: Viking by Creed

  23. #23

    Default Re: Niche market collapsing?

    I agree with Kagey about Niche actually flourishing at the moment.

    It's just the usual 'wheat and chaff' and being able to recognise when you are being mugged.

  24. #24
    Newbie
    Diamondflame's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Singapore
    Posts
    11,635
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: Niche market collapsing?

    Bonjour, Michel! Good to see you here on Basenotes!

    Artisanal and indie brands are typically one man shows. The founder is the in-house perfumer, the marketer and pretty often the one who arrange for packing and shipping. Brands like Sonoma Scent Studio, La Via del Profumo, Kerosene, Areej le Dore, etc. I think these artisans have the creative vision and loyal fan bases to remain niche. They don't do flankers either.

    Then there are niche players like Frederic Malle, MDCI, Dusita or Phuong Dang who outsource their perfume creation to external perfumers, some of whom also work on big designer briefs. These are the brands who have to go toe-to-toe with the designer ultra-exclusive lines. Or alternatively generate revenues attractive enough to woo an industry giant. I believe a threat of market consolidation exists in this particular segment.
    Currently wearing: 11 by Le Cherche Midi

  25. #25

    Default It is even more complex!

    Thanks for your insightful distinction Diamondflame !
    I agree with this grouping but nevertheless I think things are more complex then they seem. Let's take three cases:

    Francis Kurkdjian: he is working as an independent perfumer - but with a contract with Takasago. This means he has developed his own brand creating his own perfumes AND created for designer brands under the Takasago name. So his brand can be considered Indie BUT it has been bought out by LVMH - because it was built truly as a BRAND (which I wouldn't say of most Indie 'brands').

    Serge Lutens: backed from the very beginning by Shiseido, all perfumes are created by Christopher Sheldrake, working at Chanel but contracted with Serge Lutens as an independent perfumer (and before that working for Quest).

    Annick Goutal: all perfumes are created by independent perfumer Isabelle Doyen and in-house perfumer Camille Goutal. Nevertheless they are part of Korean group Amore Pacific.

    This means that we now have two new criteria:
    - Is this company built like a brand? We should remember that is brand is not just excellent products: it also conveys a meaning to its customers.

    - is the perfumer (wherever (s)he works) free to use any ingredients (and not only those in his company's palette!) - sourcing them wherever (s)he thinks is the best quality?This second criteria takes us to international regulations: in Europe these regulations are stringent (and I could share with you why it took nearly a year to get the EU Product Information Files for the Le Jardin Retrouvé perfumes). In the US they are not. Therefore artisan perfumes can thrive outside Europe but can never be sold in Europe. Growth is therefore limited.

  26. #26
    Newbie
    Diamondflame's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Singapore
    Posts
    11,635
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: Niche market collapsing?

    Thank you for the illuminating insights, Michel. I had pondered over Kurkdjian's situation myself. It does get complicated when we drill down to specifics...
    Currently wearing: 11 by Le Cherche Midi

  27. #27
    Lian's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Manchester UK
    Posts
    1,989

    Default Re: Niche market collapsing?

    I do feel that over the years more and more fragrances are being turned out. I think NowSmellThis authors have said the same ( and maybe even Luca Turin). On the one hand its great that there is so much choice. On the other hand, if you were used to being able to keep up with all the new releases..now its overwhelming. There is also the suspicion that with the huge number of releases whether the quality is still there. How many new releases are actually novel to us ( the fragrance nerds)?

    I dont think the bubble is going to burst soon. Clearly there is a market for it all, but I have given up on trying to keep up with all the new releases, new houses etc. It takes a lot more from a new house to get noticed and become a name I want to try.
    But once you get locked into a serious perfume collection, the tendency is to push it as far as you can.

  28. #28

    Default Re: Niche market collapsing?

    Lian you are perfectly right!
    In the 80's when my father Yuri Gutsatz wrote his perfume critics in the professional press he already said that Hundreds of launches per year was overwhelmingly too much because most of them were just me-toos or poor stuff.
    Has anything changed? yes there are MORE launches, MORE companies (both brands and artisan companies), some truly adventurous creations....

    The only answer for a brand like Le Jardin Retrouvé that we are relaunching is to build our promise in line with our heritage, being the first ever niche Maison de Parfum (1975): revive the extraordinary perfumes created by Yuri Gutsatz without adulterating his formulas; only use the very best ingredients; offer affordable premium perfumes.

  29. #29
    Dependent Possum-Pie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Downwind from Gettysburg
    Posts
    5,919
    Blog Entries
    19

    Default Re: Niche market collapsing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Michel Gutsatz View Post
    Lian you are perfectly right!
    In the 80's when my father Yuri Gutsatz wrote his perfume critics in the professional press he already said that Hundreds of launches per year was overwhelmingly too much because most of them were just me-toos or poor stuff.
    Has anything changed? yes there are MORE launches, MORE companies (both brands and artisan companies), some truly adventurous creations....

    The only answer for a brand like Le Jardin Retrouvé that we are relaunching is to build our promise in line with our heritage, being the first ever niche Maison de Parfum (1975): revive the extraordinary perfumes created by Yuri Gutsatz without adulterating his formulas; only use the very best ingredients; offer affordable premium perfumes.
    Your father walked a tightrope. He worked for a large company Roure Bertrand Dupont, but spoke of keeping perfumery simple, without the rules and regulations the large companies put on their noses. He saw the horrible effect marketing departments had on perfumer's creativity. The ideal would be a large company who allowed free rein of their perfumer's to put out what ever they wanted, perhaps a profit-sharing option, although I think if he were still alive, he would disagree with me. He liked small family-type businesses. He saw that the "shotgun" approach to perfumes wasn't the best...throwing hundreds of generic safe offerings to the public, having them buy them and quickly tire of them. Better a few masterpieces than a hundred safe boring frags! Small is good if you have the capital to do what you want.
    Last edited by Possum-Pie; 15th August 2017 at 11:40 AM.
    [SIZE=]See my Sale thread for partial bottles/samples Zoology, Penhaligon, Montale, marc de la morandiere, many others! [/SIZE]
    Currently wearing: Viking by Creed

  30. #30

    Default Re: Niche market collapsing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cook.bot View Post
    Hednic, when you kick the bucket, it will probably CAUSE the fragrance market to collapse!

    Cook.bot, that really made me laugh

    Loving this thread.

Similar Threads

  1. Sephora is killing the NICHE market?
    By kccparis in forum General Fragrance Discussion
    Replies: 36
    Last Post: 29th October 2011, 06:08 AM
  2. You feel that some niche is pricing themselves out of a market?
    By finsfan in forum Male Fragrance Discussion
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: 5th November 2009, 05:13 PM
  3. Is there a market for niche perfumes in a city of 1.000.000+ people?
    By Tarzan in forum General Fragrance Discussion
    Replies: 35
    Last Post: 20th October 2009, 08:16 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  



Loving perfume on the Internet since 2000