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  1. #1

    Default How I hope this forum functions, rules mamma told us about, constructive criticism, :p

    This is the perfume forum for perfumers who are amateurs or DIY. It's for educational purposes and to dispense with a lot of the shroud of secrecy around perfumery which is completely unnecessary to independent perfumery and harmful to the continued growth and understanding of people who participate here.

    We are all fully realized human beings who need to know that every avatar we are dealing with is a person just as completely expressed as we ourselves are. On the whole, people do not appreciate being talked down to, patronized, time wasted, negativity, or even contested for the sake of a win.

    We need to treat other people as we ourselves would like to be treated, if we can't say something nice (and on topic, and specific, and helpful, and constructive) then we need not speak at all! If something does not pass these tests it really ought to be in private message or ideally not at all. "Please remember the words you regret more than ones unsaid are the ones used to hurt someone else."

    Constructive criticism, (CC) is integral in any collaboration. Here's how it works.
    1. A positive compliment
    2. Your suggestion for improvement of the specific, actionable, non-person based problem.
    3. The positive result you expect, another compliment or even reiteration of the first one.

    Even if someone asks a "stupid question" this is applicable to keep a positive atmosphere, mentor a person to being "smarter", improve collaboration and engender an atmosphere of reciprocal learning.

    I love this forum, I love the people, I love learning about perfumery, I love when I can share something helpful and I love when I have a good result. I vow to keep my comments CC and I hope everyone will join me.

  2. #2
    Super Member mattmeleg's Avatar
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    Default Re: How I hope this forum functions, rules mamma told us about, constructive criticism, :p

    Quote Originally Posted by RSG View Post
    This is the perfume forum for perfumers who are amateurs or DIY. It's for educational purposes and to dispense with a lot of the shroud of secrecy around perfumery which is completely unnecessary to independent perfumery and harmful to the continued growth and understanding of people who participate here.

    We are all fully realized human beings who need to know that every avatar we are dealing with is a person just as completely expressed as we ourselves are. On the whole, people do not appreciate being talked down to, patronized, time wasted, negativity, or even contested for the sake of a win.

    We need to treat other people as we ourselves would like to be treated, if we can't say something nice (and on topic, and specific, and helpful, and constructive) then we need not speak at all! If something does not pass these tests it really ought to be in private message or ideally not at all. "Please remember the words you regret more than ones unsaid are the ones used to hurt someone else."

    Constructive criticism, (CC) is integral in any collaboration. Here's how it works.
    1. A positive compliment
    2. Your suggestion for improvement of the specific, actionable, non-person based problem.
    3. The positive result you expect, another compliment or even reiteration of the first one.

    Even if someone asks a "stupid question" this is applicable to keep a positive atmosphere, mentor a person to being "smarter", improve collaboration and engender an atmosphere of reciprocal learning.

    I love this forum, I love the people, I love learning about perfumery, I love when I can share something helpful and I love when I have a good result. I vow to keep my comments CC and I hope everyone will join me.

    I dunno about policing the internet,it`s hard to read "intention," via text on a computer screen.
    So much is lost and misconstrued in thoughts to fingers to screens from writer to reader from one culture to another.
    It`s nearly impossible to convey mood, inflection or intonation via text.

    Frankly, I`ve benefited a tonne from direct criticism.
    As a beginner myself, I believe we are super lucky these threads exist :-)
    Last edited by mattmeleg; 25th September 2017 at 02:00 PM.

  3. #3
    Super Member mattmeleg's Avatar
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    Default Re: How I hope this forum functions, rules mamma told us about, constructive criticism, :p

    Quote Originally Posted by mnaonbn View Post
    I think that one can be polite without policing, and one can be direct without being derisive.
    One can be all things, at all times and more! :-)

  4. #4

    Default Re: How I hope this forum functions, rules mamma told us about, constructive criticism, :p

    Quote Originally Posted by mnaonbn View Post
    No idea what this means
    Good one.
    ....perhaps you have to be Canadian to get it .....

    sorry, couldn't resist...sorry... no really ...SORRY!

    One of the things I love about Americans I have met, is this trait to call things as they see them... Canadians just like to listen.
    (how's that for politically-incorrect generalizing! )
    Last edited by julian35; 25th September 2017 at 07:25 PM.

  5. #5
    Super Member mattmeleg's Avatar
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    Default Re: How I hope this forum functions, rules mamma told us about, constructive criticism, :p

    Thanks Julian :-)

  6. #6
    New Member sibie's Avatar
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    Default Re: How I hope this forum functions, rules mamma told us about, constructive criticism, :p

    Quote Originally Posted by RSG View Post
    This is the perfume forum for perfumers who are amateurs or DIY. It's for educational purposes and to dispense with a lot of the shroud of secrecy around perfumery which is completely unnecessary to independent perfumery and harmful to the continued growth and understanding of people who participate here.

    We are all fully realized human beings who need to know that every avatar we are dealing with is a person just as completely expressed as we ourselves are. On the whole, people do not appreciate being talked down to, patronized, time wasted, negativity, or even contested for the sake of a win.

    We need to treat other people as we ourselves would like to be treated, if we can't say something nice (and on topic, and specific, and helpful, and constructive) then we need not speak at all! If something does not pass these tests it really ought to be in private message or ideally not at all. "Please remember the words you regret more than ones unsaid are the ones used to hurt someone else."

    Constructive criticism, (CC) is integral in any collaboration. Here's how it works.
    1. A positive compliment
    2. Your suggestion for improvement of the specific, actionable, non-person based problem.
    3. The positive result you expect, another compliment or even reiteration of the first one.

    Even if someone asks a "stupid question" this is applicable to keep a positive atmosphere, mentor a person to being "smarter", improve collaboration and engender an atmosphere of reciprocal learning.

    I love this forum, I love the people, I love learning about perfumery, I love when I can share something helpful and I love when I have a good result. I vow to keep my comments CC and I hope everyone will join me.
    Thank you for your great post! I have been pretty much a lurker in this forum for over a year, only becoming a member a few months ago, and still I rarely participate. This is in part because, as with most forums, there are always the few uncontrolled egos, or those with low patience and tolerance thresholds, who oftentimes view those less 'expert' as complete morons to suffer. At some point I decided I do not have time in my life for that. However, I do think that 99% of the people I have seen here are truly thankful, gracious, and overall charming, and there are several experts who are very giving of their time. Sometimes, though, some people forget that while we may not all be experts in the field of perfumery (and, after all, this is a reason most of us are here), many of us are experts in other fields. When it comes to the music industry I work in, I could run circles around many people here, yet to me this does not make idiots of those who are not experts at what I do. Not only that, but I also find it wonderful to have a passion and thirst for knowledge of those things we're not expert in to try and learn and grow. I see many newbies who come into my industry (unfortunately lured by a false image of the industry) desperate for knowledge. When I can, I am as helpful as I can be. And yes, some can be very dense, so I get that, but still, this does not make them stupid. And for some perspective, my sister is a top oncologist who saves lives daily....compared to her expertise and skill, let alone what she offers the world, I am a complete neophyte in life!
    Last edited by sibie; 11th October 2017 at 03:34 PM.

  7. #7
    New Member sibie's Avatar
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    Default Re: How I hope this forum functions, rules mamma told us about, constructive criticism, :p

    Quote Originally Posted by julian35 View Post
    Good one.
    ....perhaps you have to be Canadian to get it .....

    sorry, couldn't resist...sorry... no really ...SORRY!

    One of the things I love about Americans I have met, is this trait to call things as they see them... Canadians just like to listen.
    (how's that for politically-incorrect generalizing! )
    I have to confess laughing really hard when I read your post. My partner is Canadian and, for work, is a Corporate Coach who listens for a living. You got him pegged right! I also agree with your vision of Americans. As an Argentinian who has lived in the US for over 30 years, I can attest to that, however, they can't beat an Argento-Italian for calling things as I see them. My Canadian partner has taught me to lessen that...and I taught him to speak out (which seems to be rather foreign concept to a Canadian).
    Last edited by sibie; 11th October 2017 at 08:46 PM.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: How I hope this forum functions, rules mamma told us about, constructive criticism, :p

    Thank you for such an important post!

    I very much agree, as a young student of The Art of Perfumery, I see how certain comments or attitudes can be discouraging to members of the forum.
    I, myself, have been dissuaded from asking questions for this exact reason.

    I dont buy into the philosophy that this needs to be a 'perfect safe space', and I agree that criticism (especially if you are looking to create a commercial product) is necessary.

    But, for the regular hobbyist who is interested in finding out more about this beautiful subject; it doesn't matter if it is the 1 millionth time you have been asked the difference between a note and an accord (fictitious example), they do not deserve to be berated by some 'high and mighty' in an ivory tower. It just isn't necessary.

    As my grandma used to say: "If you dont have something nice to say, don't say it at all!"
    Fragrance is a painting for the nose; my chemicals are my colours.

    Luxury Fragrance Products : www.redolescent.co.uk

  9. #9
    New Member sibie's Avatar
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    Default Re: How I hope this forum functions, rules mamma told us about, constructive criticism, :p

    Quote Originally Posted by Azurial View Post
    Thank you for such an important post!

    I very much agree, as a young student of The Art of Perfumery, I see how certain comments or attitudes can be discouraging to members of the forum.
    I, myself, have been dissuaded from asking questions for this exact reason.

    I dont buy into the philosophy that this needs to be a 'perfect safe space', and I agree that criticism (especially if you are looking to create a commercial product) is necessary.

    But, for the regular hobbyist who is interested in finding out more about this beautiful subject; it doesn't matter if it is the 1 millionth time you have been asked the difference between a note and an accord (fictitious example), they do not deserve to be berated by some 'high and mighty' in an ivory tower. It just isn't necessary.

    As my grandma used to say: "If you dont have something nice to say, don't say it at all!"
    What you say is quite true and very important. I don't believe in 'safe spaces' either, and it is up to me how I want to take someone's response. Oftentimes, the way someone writes something is not exactly the way they meant it and it may come across off-putting (although sometimes, it is exactly the way they meant it). Because of it, I always make sure to read and reread something before I post it, to make sure it is written in such a way to be taken correctly and not to hurt anyone. At the same time, as you said, people need to be treated kindly, even if they have asked the same question a million times. I figure if someone is annoyed, they can just ignore the questioner and let someone else answer the question.

    I do think there should be some middle of the road, however. I have been mostly a lurker here for over a year, in part because I just do not want to get into it, and I see some people really get trashed. But also because I do believe in doing as much research as I can on my own. I find that, for the most part, there is enough information on this forum, in books and on the internet as a whole to answer whatever question I have, and if there is not, I find it out through experience. And I love reading and rereading the threads and posts on this forum. But I also think, for those more advanced or even expert that there are some choices: help, ignore or get out. If someone is in here, they should know what they're in for. Basenotes is, after all, not a closed, elite membership of expert perfumers. Many here, including myself, are amateurs, beginners, or advanced but not professionals. Still, as I said in another post, I do find that 99% of people here are extremely generous with their time and exchanges.
    Last edited by sibie; 13th October 2017 at 03:16 PM.

  10. #10
    Super Member mattmeleg's Avatar
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    Default Re: How I hope this forum functions, rules mamma told us about, constructive criticism, :p

    Quote Originally Posted by sibie View Post
    What you say is quite true and very important. I don't believe in 'safe spaces' either, and it is up to me how I want to take someone's response. Oftentimes, the way someone writes something is not exactly the way they meant it and it may come across off-putting (although sometimes, it is exactly the way they meant it). Because of it, I always make sure to read and reread something before I post it, to make sure it is written in such a way to be taken correctly and not to hurt anyone. At the same time, as you said, people need to be treated kindly, even if they have asked the same question a million times. I figure if someone is annoyed, they can just ignore the questioner and let someone else answer the question.

    I do think there should be some middle of the road, however. I have been mostly a lurker here for over a year, in part because I just do not want to get into it, and I see some people really get trashed. But also because I do believe in doing as much research as I can on my own. I find that, for the most part, there is enough information on this forum and on the internet as a whole to answer whatever question I have, and if there is not, I find it out through experience. And I love reading and rereading the threads and posts on this forum. But I also think, for those more advanced or even expert that there are some choices: help, ignore or get out. If someone is in here, they should know what they're in for. Basenotes is, after all, not a closed, elite membership of expert perfumers. Many here, including myself, are amateurs, beginners, or advanced but not professionals. Still, as I said in another post, I do find that 99% of people here are extremely generous with their time and exchanges.

    You should be like me, I`m just absolutely perfect at everything, all of the time :-)

  11. #11

    Default Re: How I hope this forum functions, rules mamma told us about, constructive criticism, :p

    I'm Italian and I think gentlemen are all over the world...

  12. #12

    Default Re: How I hope this forum functions, rules mamma told us about, constructive criticism, :p

    I'm a member of a graphics art feedback board. It's really hard to tell someone their drawing has a bunch of fatal anatomy flaws and not offend or demotivate someone. Were required to use constructive criticism there, its a pinned post and also post things like paint overs. We also use constructive criticism on the romance writers forum for amazon. It's not just IQ smart but also EQ smart.

  13. #13

    Default Re: How I hope this forum functions, rules mamma told us about, constructive criticism, :p

    At which point do we all hold hands and sing kumbaya? Can we even do that? Does the policeman inside your mind approve? Oh won't somebody think of the children!

    I'm from the old school where spades were called spades not ornamental gardening implements and this happy happy joy joy safe space all is right in the world crap is for the birds as far as I'm concerned. Unvarnished truth on one hand and flowery platitudes that avoid the point in their attempt to masquerade the speakers true intent on the other - I know what I'd pick. Take it away Melvin:


  14. #14

    Default Re: How I hope this forum functions, rules mamma told us about, constructive criticism, :p

    I'm all for truth

    There is a difference between calling a spade a spade and telling someone all about how your spade is so much better than theirs. They might as well give up and never use spades ever again. How dare they even call it a spade because your sure it's super spade. Also, spades are too good for a person like them. Trolls...

    All constructive criticism is is saying, "good job, you found a tool there; it's call a spade", "Your using it in a manner I don't recognize", "Have you though about trying it my way so you don't hurt your back as much and you get more work done faster".

    *Shrug

  15. #15

    Default Re: How I hope this forum functions, rules mamma told us about, constructive criticism, :p

    But my spade is better than yours!





    For real though, just call it how you see it based on your experience. No need to grind any axes (or spades) based on the OP or however whatever was worded, keep it simple, to the point and clear and we're all good. Save that waffle for youtube where every dipshit seems to take 20 minutes to say 2 sentences worth of data.

  16. #16

    Default Re: How I hope this forum functions, rules mamma told us about, constructive criticism, :p

    I got a steel folding shovel for my car with a custom extension handle to match my height. It's not as awesome as the one above but it was a great day for me

  17. #17

    Default Re: How I hope this forum functions, rules mamma told us about, constructive criticism, :p

    Feedback needs the ability to differentiate, which is not always easy.

    Let's say a formula that was posted by the OP is so-so:

    On the OP side, it is important to differentiate that a negative feedback on the formula does not mean that the OP is a bad person. Unfortunately it is very common nowadays to mistake criticism on ones work as criticism on ones personality. Also, as always, working hard for a long time does not automatically mean to achieve a good result: if you dig in the wrong place, the hole may be very deep, but it is still the wrong place. We're all learning and mistakes are part of learning.

    The side of the feedbacker is more challenging. I personally think it is helpful to honestly say "this formula is so-so" or "needs improvements" or even "is not nice", if necessary. But this is not where it ends, but where it begins. With that one should say as exact as possible why it is unsatisfactory, and even how it can be improved and why that way and not some other way. Those two things are usually way harder than just judging.

    Last but not least, there are many different cultures and native languages here. Maybe a word was never meant to be that harsh as it was understood initially. And if someone should get hurt, then show that by writing something like *ouch* or an appropriate emoji .

  18. #18
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    Default Re: How I hope this forum functions, rules mamma told us about, constructive criticism, :p

    Constructive criticism = Feedback Sandwiching?
    Best delivered sans "Should" "But" rather as "Could""And".

    Here's where you have done well and
    Here's where you could improve and
    Here's where you have done well.

    Constructive Criticism as an idea is "Suspect" not unlike Constructive Dismissal.
    Last edited by purecaramel; 29th October 2017 at 11:13 PM.
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  19. #19
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    Default Re: How I hope this forum functions, rules mamma told us about, constructive criticism, :p

    Quote Originally Posted by mattmeleg View Post
    You should be like me, I`m just absolutely perfect at everything, all of the time :-)
    Or you could be like me, absolutely perfect at everything, all of the time. I think it is likely because I am Canadian.
    Scarcity is an illusion. Unlearn it.
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  20. #20

    Default Re: How I hope this forum functions, rules mamma told us about, constructive criticism, :p

    3rd line could be more like here is the positive consequence you can expect. That is where the why behind the education can be.

    Saying Constructive Criticism is like Constructive Dismissal is a strawman argument.

    I understand you are suspicious; that's fine. But let's not be exclusionary of ways to encourage productive communication that has been proven to work elsewhere.

  21. #21
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    Default Re: How I hope this forum functions, rules mamma told us about, constructive criticism, :p

    Quote Originally Posted by RSG View Post
    3rd line could be more like here is the positive consequence you can expect. That is where the why behind the education can be.

    Saying Constructive Criticism is like Constructive Dismissal is a strawman argument.

    I understand you are suspicious; that's fine. But let's not be exclusionary of ways to encourage productive communication that has been proven to work elsewhere.
    Feedback Sandwiching is a technique that has been identified as exclusionary?

    What I am saying is the buzzword "Constructive Criticism" has become a euphemism for delivery of what really amounts to "Do what I say".
    Few of those managing other people, productively, understand it as anything more than a way put the check in the box of their Manager Matrix until they are charged with Constructive Dismissal.

    Yes, third line can be whatever you wish to say, in any given situation as long as it is constructive.

    "I understand you are suspicious; that's fine. "But" let's not be exclusionary of ways to encourage productive communication that has been proven to work elsewhere."

    Remove the "But" from the above Statement. Replace it with "and". Perhaps I will consider it as Good argument.

    I am in agreement with all that you say in regards to original Posting and would offer that perhaps the use of "Constructive Feedback" could make it a better argument.
    Last edited by purecaramel; 30th October 2017 at 12:20 AM.
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  22. #22

    Default Re: How I hope this forum functions, rules mamma told us about, constructive criticism, :p

    Feedback Sandwiching is not Constructive Criticism. Neither are exclusionary.
    Throwing away a proven idea with no better replacement is exclusionary. It is excluding a possible solution.

    I am simply invested in finding solutions for the DIY forum which I care greatly about.

  23. #23

    Default Re: How I hope this forum functions, rules mamma told us about, constructive criticism, :p

    "What I am saying is the buzzword "Constructive Criticism" has become a euphemism for delivery of what is really amounts to "Do what I say".

    Is that true?

    To me, it means to educate, give perspective, collaborate and show positive consequence by being specific, on-topic and actionable while avoiding insults, demotivation, and negativity to maintain a wonderful community and encourage all members to share productivity.

    It sounds like an ideal goal to me

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