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  1. #1
    Dependent NebelGeÓst's Avatar
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    Default New Smelly Game: Incense - Pre-Discussion Thread

    Hallo fellow hobby alchimists,

    after a little break we are up for a new smelly game again. This thread is ment to discuss issues, suggestions, defining the bounderies of the theme, time frame and so on.

    Some important things first:

    Please note: This is a pre-discussion thread, it does NOT mean the game will start next week or the week after. There's no need to hurry and therefor no need to force the start of the game asap, just to find there are still unclear ponts and questions not answered. This usually takes more time than just a few days. It even takes longer till all interested members observe this thread.
    When the game starts, a new thread will be opened for discussions on the actual smelly game and I'll ask a moderator to close this one. So, if you might start workling on your formula even before we officially have started, this thread is not the place to post, For reasons of clearness, there might be two seperate threads, one for common discussion and one strictly for problems with the formula one is working on and for final evaluation. How we will handle it should be one of the points to be discussed on this thread.

    As nobody else agreed to host and manage this new game and I do want the games to go on, I am willed to assume it. But I want to underline, I am not a native speaker, writing in English takes me much longer than writing in my mother tongue. And it could mean I might misunderstand a post, if it's written in a complex manner or using slang, many abbreviations (except the common ones in perfumery, of course) and/or locutions. As I am not the only non native speaker in the game, it would therefor be kind if participants and judges try to post preferably clearly.
    To agree to be the host this time does also mean I will follow my own principles. This is the only 'advantage' I am taking of it, and while I may partly sound strict here and might not make many friends with being so, I do this in convincement it is to the benefits of the game. I try to make some of these things clear, if I may sound harsh, this is not my intention, I just want my points to be understood.
    One of this principles is highlighted above. The smelly game starts, when it starts, not earlier, just because some participants are now excited to get things started. Another principle is, once the settings and rules are chosen and the game has started, there won't be any changes. The point of taking your time to discuss things propperly first is to not need anything changed afterwards.
    Previous games have shown to me, there IS a need to talk over the bounderies, settings and rules first and it is not of any benefit if things getting started too early just to be changed as someone wanted it in a different way. And I have to say it is a bit unfair if a host is said to have made a poor job, just because he/she listened to what participants said. Many might have another opinion. But as I said, I didn't want this job, but when I assume it, I am going to do it my way. And I am strict with this.
    And to make even less friends here, if a participant pushes to begin the game repeatedly, when I do not think we are through with discussions, I will exclude him/her from the game. I am German after all, and we are not tolerantly with other opinions, as you know.

    Kidding aside, to have opinions and to have a good setting which helps us to learn, we have this thread. So use it, while it is open.

    A few points that have come up already:

    - The theme is incense. I already said this does not (necessarily) mean frankincense/Olibanum/Boswelia. I mean incense in a more general way. David already said, this might be too vague. So we should talk about the bounderies here. I copy&paste the text from the other thread, to make a start here:
    "As for the specifications of the theme, I wanted to post them in the discussion thread, if there would be interest for this new smelly game.
    But as you asked, I thought of a more abstract definition of incense. Frankincense/olibanum imo is a very narrow field. Incense in general can be various herbs, woods, spices and resins that can be heated/burned to release their scent through smoke in the air. In perfume to my understanding an incense accord therefor should at least bear a slight smokiness, to evoke the impression of this material being used as incense. For example, cedarwood is a common wood that's burned as incense. But just using a cedar accord or oil and say 'my perfume is a cedar incense perfume' would not fullfil the requirements.
    For existing examples, Comme de Garcon 2 Man does not smell of Olibanum to me, but falls in the category incense perfume, because one of the main accords is evocing the picture of some plant material being burned as incense."

    - As in previous games some judges weren't in time or missed to judge at all, I wanted to have three judges this time. Serge Ixygon pointed out, that from some destinations shipping costs would be very high. If I remember right, there was more than one participant from Russia during the last games and other countries might have similar high prices. I would still keep the idea of three judges, to have at least two evaluations in case one judge withdraws. How should we handle this? Should we make an exception for them and say, they can chose to send their sample to the two trained judges only? Or should we let them chose to whome they want to send their entry? What should the conditions be in this case?

    - I'd like to leave it to the participants, if they're going to reveal their formula. I think it's the right of everyone to keep their secrets. But as this game is for education I would like the 'contestants' to either write down their main ingredients (without percentages) or the ingredients used for the particular incensy vibe. As it's not a real contest, we can't speak of a real winner, but if you find that to be too much unnecessary information, we could say the three highest ranked participants should do so, we could limit it to them and leave it open to the others, if they do or do not want to give this information. Or should we just keep it at it was and say it's optional but not a must to say anything about the formula/ingredients?

    - The list of members who wanted to join in got longer and longer over time in the past games. The judges do evaluate our samples in their free time. One thing I will do (in case you do not dismiss me as the host: I will not allow new participants to join in three days after the game finally begins. That's a pitty for interested and enthusiastic members that did not see the threads earlier, but well, that's life. The judges who agree to spend their time for us should have the oportunity to prepare for the amount of samples they'll receive and from whom. a constant change till the end can be annoying for the judges. This would be another point I'm not going to discuss.
    What I do like to discuss is, if we should limit the number of entries, to 10, 15, 20 or what ever. Feedback on this question by possible judges would be very appreciated and I'd like it to be honest, not necessarily kind. If you think you would rather like to have a very limited number and to spend more time on each sample, just say it. If you say you'd not need much time so there's no need to be very strict on the number of participants, say it. For those who have jobs, if there's the possibility you may be pretty busy and a bigger number of evaluations would be hard to handle, say it.
    And in case we might have a limit. SHould we chose the participants by first come, first served, or should we pick them according to the random principle?

    There were more points in my mind, but as I'm writing on this post for two hours now, I'll just start the thread and come up with them later.

    One last thing:
    If you do not agree with me hosting and managing this latest game, or with the way I am going to handle this, please feel free to say so. I would not be offended and THIS would be the time to pick a new host, not when things are processed.
    The synthetic perfume materials are supposed to enhance and support the use of natural raw materials, not to replace them, nor in any way to beat them off the market. The synthetic chemicals present a certain challenge to nature, and the perfumer can assist nature in her fight by utilizing the synthetic materials to the advantage of the natural raw materials. (S. Arctander)
    Currently wearing: Snuff by Elsa Schiaparelli

  2. #2

    Default Re: New Smelly Game: Incese - Pre-Discussion Thread

    I don't disagree with anything you have written.

    I would not limit participants at the start.

    If David decides not to participate as a judge, and I certainly would not find fault if he did not wish to, I probably would not participate. While the larger part of the benefit of these games is in the experience of blending, the other primary reason to participate is to have your work critiqued by someone with the requisite knowledge to do so. We have had an issue with this of late. A board member I would very much like to be a judge is Pears. NebelGeist you may want to send Pears a PM to see if there is interest or time in being a judge.

    I love incense and hope this works out favorably. Thank you for taking on the challenge.

  3. #3

    Default Re: New Smelly Game: Incese - Pre-Discussion Thread

    Well done NebelGeist, very clear and concise. I cannot fault anything you have written.

    For the last game there were many more saying they were going to participate than actually did so; this is always the case. I think that 20 fragrances is the maximum I would be happy with. I usually smell two or three at a time, and each fragrance takes two or three days to properly evaluate. If I do act as a judge this time I will not be able to perform in front of a camera, but will take the judging seriously. If I promise to judge I will do it to the best of my ability. I realise that there is a lot of hard work involved and I do not want to let anyone down. Whoever the judges are I hope they have the same commitment that I do. I am still thinking about judging, but I don't want people to submit or not submit simply because I am or am not judging. No doubt all who are picked will be as competent , and if they think that they are not able to judge properly they will say so.

  4. #4

    Default Re: New Smelly Game: Incese - Pre-Discussion Thread

    Ah, german clarity. Very nice! "A Sweden for grown ups" as a member of our academy reviewed your country a couple of years ago.

    I might be interested in participating, the theme is high on my list. I just have to find some holes in the work schedule. Regarding judges and costs for shipping; might it be a fair (and doable) tactics to find one judge in Europe, one in Asia and one in North America? This way, at least someone is a bit closer to everyone, which may even out the prices for sending samples a bit. That said, I have no clue if there are certain regulations in some countries that makes it highly expensive anyway. But of course, the knowledge of an experienced judge is far more important than trying to keep the prices of shipping down.

    /Pel

  5. #5
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    Default Re: New Smelly Game: Incese - Pre-Discussion Thread

    Hello David... :-)

    We certainly have different ideas about life sometimes.
    You may view broadcasting a live sniff in your own way.
    My thought is to build community, by sharing together by video.
    Which is of course separate from a full review.

    We here are all endeavoring to learn and work.
    We are here for the community.
    I am simply trying to build that community in a different way...

    PK
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

  6. #6

    Default Re: New Smelly Game: Incese - Pre-Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post
    Hello David... :-)

    We certainly have different ideas about life sometimes.
    You may view broadcasting a live sniff in your own way.
    My thought is to build community, by sharing together by video.
    Which is of course separate from a full review.

    We here are all endeavoring to learn and work.
    We are here for the community.
    I am simply trying to build that community in a different way...

    PK

    So long as the full review is included then sniff, and video, away. If you think that will build the community spirit then good for you, and I wish you well with it. My contribution is to judge, to the best of my ability, those fragrances that have been submitted to me by the people involved in the smelling "games". I try to do this quickly, accurately and fairly. I don't have the equipment, or the knowledge, to do anything else. But what I can do, I do; what I promise to do, I do.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: New Smelly Game: Incese - Pre-Discussion Thread

    OK, Nebelgeist, good work.

    i'm agree with definition of " church / boswellia/olibanum incense variations fragrance",
    or similar.
    hi

    (excuse me for bad english)
    Last edited by Geco; 26th September 2017 at 05:20 PM.

  8. #8
    Dependent NebelGeÓst's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Smelly Game: Incese - Pre-Discussion Thread

    I wish I could be as clear and on point as I want to, that would have made the opening post much shorter
    But thank you all for not burning me immediately.

    As for an Asian judge, I am not aware if we had any Asian members who joined the earlier games or any, who had at least interest to do so. If there would be any interest from our Asian members, this could be an option for the third judge. If not, I think we should just stick to the continents involved in the game. Serg for example is from Moscow, so he's from European part of Russia. I don't know the specifications on shipping and prices, but I suppose sending to an Asian judge might not be cheaper. On the other hand, afaik Russia has trade agreements with some Asian countries, which could mean shipping there might at least be easier (and maybe I am wrong and in this case even cheaper).

    To posting video impressions:
    In general I'm ok with this idea. Would be something new. But to me they only make sense, if they are really first impression videos of several stages of the perfumes (lot of work to do, to edit/cut, to render and to upload). And these videos should be uploaded after the actual reviews have been posted here. If they do not affect the evaluations and do not cause any delays (as, depending on the number of participants, it really causes a lot of work), it could be cool. As an extra, not as the main evaluation system.
    I have to admit, I share a bit the concerns David might have, but still I'm open for this idea. Plus, as videos will most likely be uploaded on another platform like youtube, my one restriction I would give is: Only samples from participants who clearly agree that evaluations of their entries can be uploaded as a video are allowed to use in such videos. To not disagree does not equal agreement! And of course only forum names or anonymise numbers should be used, no real names.
    But to not cause any bad blood between possible judges I'd like to finnish this topic here for now. Depending on the response of he participants, this matter can be discussed later in details.
    Last edited by NebelGeÓst; 26th September 2017 at 05:45 PM.
    The synthetic perfume materials are supposed to enhance and support the use of natural raw materials, not to replace them, nor in any way to beat them off the market. The synthetic chemicals present a certain challenge to nature, and the perfumer can assist nature in her fight by utilizing the synthetic materials to the advantage of the natural raw materials. (S. Arctander)
    Currently wearing: Snuff by Elsa Schiaparelli

  9. #9
    Basenotes Junkie Serg Ixygon's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Smelly Game: Incese - Pre-Discussion Thread

    If Paul will be sniffing samples under the palm tree at the beach it would be great video! If he's planning to show us the bottles with AC, hmm, we have bottles already... ;-)

    The smallest parcel to British Irelands cost about 35-40$. To the US it's more expensive.

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    Default Re: New Smelly Game: Incese - Pre-Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Serg Ixygon View Post
    If Paul will be sniffing samples under the palm tree at the beach it would be great video! .
    Yes, but with shirt and shorts pans with floreal paint ! :
    Last edited by Geco; 26th September 2017 at 06:41 PM.

  11. #11
    Basenotes Member Greencarrots's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Smelly Game: Incese - Pre-Discussion Thread

    But thank you all for not burning me immediately
    Cool incense pun NebelGeÓst, I think you're hiding your true grasp of the English language
    Thanks for taking on the challenge of organising the new game.
    I'm new to the smelly game, but have "evesdropped" on the last one and am very keen to participate this round.
    Just regarding the brief: I assume a "prominent incense note" in a fragrance would fit the brief, or would one need to build an entire fragrance around a central incense theme?

  12. #12

    Default Re: New Smelly Game: Incese - Pre-Discussion Thread

    Thank you for agreeing to host and manage this new game NebelGeÓst, I appreciate the efficiency.

    1. In defining the odour/material parameters may I suggest we keep it as simple and focused as possible.
    2. I think all entries should go to all judges(no matter how many there are, or where they are).
    3. I would like 'contestants' to share their main ingredients (without percentages)
    4. I agree that you not allow new participants to join after three days once the game begins.
    5. I don't think we should limit the number of contestants, but there should be only one entry per "contestant".
    6. I think judging should begin 3 months from the start time.







    Last edited by julian35; 27th September 2017 at 03:30 AM.

  13. #13

    Default Re: New Smelly Game: Incese - Pre-Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by julian35 View Post
    Thank you for agreeing to host and manage this new game NebelGeÓst, I appreciate the efficiency.

    1. In defining the odour/material parameters may I suggest we keep it as simple and focused as possible.
    2. I think all entries should go to all judges(no matter how many there are, or where they are).
    3. I would like 'contestants' to share their main ingredients (without percentages)
    4. I agree that you not allow new participants to join after three days once the game begins.
    5. I don't think we should limit the number of contestants, but there should be only one entry per "contestant".
    6. I think judging should begin 3 months from the start time.







    It is obvious that you have never had to judge one of these competitions. Over twenty and it becomes a chore. Agree with only one entry per competitor though.

  14. #14

    Default Re: New Smelly Game: Incese - Pre-Discussion Thread

    I'd like to join in too, if I may. Thank you NebelGeÓst for organising.

    Narrowing down the definition of the theme may be a little problematic, but maybe this definition from Google will help a little:

    noun: incense

    1.
    a gum, spice, or other substance that is burned for the sweet smell it produces.
    the smoke or perfume of incense.

    Origin
    Middle English (originally as encense ): from Old French encens (noun), encenser (verb), from ecclesiastical Latin incensum Ďsomething burned, incense,í neuter past participle of incendere Ďset fire to,í from in- Ďiní + the base of candere Ďto glow.í


    "Smoke", "burned", "set fire to"... maybe these could be key words in our brief.

    I think it's safe to say we are not talking about a game that is simply to create any arbitrary fragrance type that can be added to incense sticks or cones, as in the types sold in "hippie shops", e.g. "nag champa" etc., which are often of a sweet floral-oriental nature. Rather, we are talking about a fine fragrance based on the scent of burning/smoldering olibanum, myrrh, benzoin, and/or other raw materials commonly burned as incense, for example, agarwood and sandalwood. ... I think?

  15. #15
    Basenotes Member Greencarrots's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Smelly Game: Incese - Pre-Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by David Ruskin View Post
    Over twenty and it becomes a chore.
    I can well imagine.

    Just a suggestion then, maybe we can:

    • set a cap of 20 entrants
    • set a date for competitors to commit their entry (ie. to earnestly be in on the competition, knowing you may be bumping someone else off the list that also wants to participate, so be serious about participating)
    • Assuming there are more than 20 competitors, NebelGeÓst could draw names out of a hat to determine who gets to play - random lottery style


    Naturally there'll be some shrinkage on the number 20 thanks to life's follies and International mail issues. The game will quickly disintegrate without judges and we cannot expect them to troll through hundreds of fragrances.

    Just my 2c
    Last edited by Greencarrots; 27th September 2017 at 01:59 PM. Reason: clarification on the lottery draw

  16. #16

    Default Re: New Smelly Game: Incese - Pre-Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by David Ruskin View Post
    It is obvious that you have never had to judge one of these competitions. Over twenty and it becomes a chore. Agree with only one entry per competitor though.
    Not sure how obvious it is, but based on how many contestants over the past three games who have dropped-off by the wayside, who don't begin, or who don't ship, I assumed it is not an issue. I am not judging, so not fair of me to put my oar in on this one. That question is best left up to the judges to decide.

    Personally I think Christine should be asked again to judge.... and not because she really liked my previous entry. LOL
    Perhaps the judges should include women and men.
    Last edited by julian35; 27th September 2017 at 03:45 PM.

  17. #17

    Default Re: New Smelly Game: Incese - Pre-Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by julian35 View Post
    Not sure how obvious it is, but based on how many contestants over the past three games who have dropped-off by the wayside, who don't begin, or who don't ship, I assumed it is not an issue. I am not judging, so not fair of me to put my oar in.
    Everyone has the right to share their thoughts. What I meant was that you were happy not to restrict the number of participants without having had to judge. More than 20 takes a long time; in total well over a week. I agree that there is usually a large number who drop out before the judging starts, and I don't think we have ever had over 20, but I would like to ensure that 20 is the maximum number. Mind you I haven't yet decided whether or not I will be a judge.

  18. #18

    Default Re: New Smelly Game: Incese - Pre-Discussion Thread

    Does it make sense and would the judges be willing to accept concentrations at full strength to avoid postal/alcohol issues and then dilute when they receive the sample?
    Last edited by julian35; 27th September 2017 at 03:51 PM.

  19. #19

    Default Re: New Smelly Game: Incese - Pre-Discussion Thread

    You would need to know the flash point of the fragrance concentrate for that to work. I don't have the ability to dilute a concentrate , even if I wanted to. If everyone sent the concentrate then it would be a level playing field, as they could be evaluated at 100.0% concentration.

  20. #20

    Default Re: New Smelly Game: Incese - Pre-Discussion Thread

    (@Julian) I feel that's a lot to ask. I wouldn't like to have to do that if I was a judge.

    And anyway, for me, and maybe for others, sending any kind of liquid at all, whether it's water or alcohol, is technically not allowed. But so far, 1-2ml vials in a small envelope have gone through fine, and at a cost of only a few Euro each.

  21. #21

    Default Re: New Smelly Game: Incese - Pre-Discussion Thread

    The other thing is, some of us work with our materials already diluted to 10 or 20%.

    But; if the judges prefer to evaluate a concentrate, I'm happy to oblige.

    Personally, I think a fragrance should be evaluated in the final product for which it is intended (in our case, unless someone prefers oil or solid perfume, this is probably alcohol).
    Last edited by Renegade; 27th September 2017 at 04:32 PM.

  22. #22
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    Default Re: New Smelly Game: Incese - Pre-Discussion Thread

    If a concentrate is shipped, then it would need a week or more to sit, diluted, before judging...
    Paul Kiler
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    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

  23. #23
    Dependent NebelGeÓst's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Smelly Game: Incese - Pre-Discussion Thread

    Regarding sending undiluted concentrates:
    I am one of those, who has many of the materials in diluted form. More pricy stuff I only buy in small quantities and do not keep in pure form. Other materials are very sticky or solid, like my labdanum resinoid.Then there are high impact materials that should be used in traces only, they can hardly be used without blending a kg of your concentrate.
    So I as well would vote against this method to avoid problems with shipping.

    We usually had a deadline on which the samples should be shipped, allowing then 2 weeks to get to the judges. This often seemed to cause confusion. This time I would suggest we just determine the date when the samples have to arrive at the judges. So it's up to the contestants to send them in time, keeping in mind that shipping overseas might take even 3 weeks or more. I'd leave it up to the judges, if they would still evaluate a sample, if it comes one or two days late. Everything beyond this should not be rated in this game. If a judge would be kind enough to still give some feedback via private message that is totally up to their choice of course.

    If we would limit the participants and would pick them randomised, this should be done by a third party, not by me. I may be hosting this game, but beyond the one thing I stated in the opening post this should not mean I should have any advantages because of that. I myself should only participate if my name gets drawn, and to make this transparent and fair, so everyone can be sure I did not cheat when my name is on the list, the names should be picked by a person that is not involved as a (possible) participant or judge.
    So far, it does not seem we might get more than 20 participants, though. Maybe we are lucky and noone has to be excluded, in case we agree on a limit. But the discussions just started on the other hand.
    The synthetic perfume materials are supposed to enhance and support the use of natural raw materials, not to replace them, nor in any way to beat them off the market. The synthetic chemicals present a certain challenge to nature, and the perfumer can assist nature in her fight by utilizing the synthetic materials to the advantage of the natural raw materials. (S. Arctander)
    Currently wearing: Snuff by Elsa Schiaparelli

  24. #24
    Super Member Godmu's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Smelly Game: Incese - Pre-Discussion Thread

    let me begin by saying, I was the first to say I was going to participate Ö
    if this is going to be a "draw the straw", it's over for me (who cares)

    I find it annoying that I would not be able to play along because someone was chosen over me, and later dropped out

    this pisses me off, you think you found a reasonable and fair way to let people join in;
    well, find another way!
    Last edited by Godmu; 28th September 2017 at 07:57 AM.

  25. #25
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    Default Re: New Smelly Game: Incese - Pre-Discussion Thread

    No need to be pissed yet, as we have not decided that there will be a limitation or not. We are just discussing options. And be assured, I would be pissed as well if I could not participate
    The synthetic perfume materials are supposed to enhance and support the use of natural raw materials, not to replace them, nor in any way to beat them off the market. The synthetic chemicals present a certain challenge to nature, and the perfumer can assist nature in her fight by utilizing the synthetic materials to the advantage of the natural raw materials. (S. Arctander)
    Currently wearing: Snuff by Elsa Schiaparelli

  26. #26
    Super Member Godmu's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Smelly Game: Incese - Pre-Discussion Thread

    I have a headache, so I'm more easily pissed …

    It's not just not being able to participate, it's the whole idea
    most of the time not even 20 is reached, and even so, there are always drop-outs
    so …




    gonna take some aspirin and cool off

  27. #27

    Default Re: New Smelly Game: Incese - Pre-Discussion Thread

    Choosing at random does not seem to be a good idea. Having a date after which no-one is accepted is a good idea. Once there are twenty, everyone else who wishes to participate will wait and if someone drops out someone else can be picked. Sort of like getting tickets by sale or return,

    As has been said, in previous games we have not reached 20 so it may be that this is entirely academic.

  28. #28

    Default Re: New Smelly Game: Incese - Pre-Discussion Thread

    One option is, as in many other kinds of competitions (or chances to get professional evaluations of ones works) that there is a fee for participation. Apart from the possible hassle of finding a usable payment method, there are a couple of advantages: It filters out many people that may drop out of the competition half way. It also gives the judges a possibility for some payment. In the end, it may limit the contestants far below 20, but if there would be more, at least the judges might want to give a little extra time, since they are paid.

    Just a thought, as usual.
    /Pelle

  29. #29

    Default Re: New Smelly Game: Incese - Pre-Discussion Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Filipsson View Post
    One option is, as in many other kinds of competitions (or chances to get professional evaluations of ones works) that there is a fee for participation. Apart from the possible hassle of finding a usable payment method, there are a couple of advantages: It filters out many people that may drop out of the competition half way. It also gives the judges a possibility for some payment. In the end, it may limit the contestants far below 20, but if there would be more, at least the judges might want to give a little extra time, since they are paid.

    Just a thought, as usual.
    /Pelle
    There is already a fee in having to ship overseas. I do not believe remuneration for anyone should be a part of these games personally.

  30. #30

    Default Re: New Smelly Game: Incese - Pre-Discussion Thread

    I agree with Adam. Judges should definitely not be paid. I don't think it a good idea for participants to have to pay, it is trouble enough for them to post their samples,




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