Code of Conduct
Results 1 to 15 of 15
  1. #1

    Default diluting your aromachems BEFORE composing your frag?

    Do any of you, when you have an idea for a perfume in mind, dilute your aromachems BEFORE you compose? It seems to make sense since you need to smell the product before you start mass creating, when you know how many grams you use before diluting?

    What do you do?

    Help! I'm starting one tomorrow. I am working with armochems that need to be diluted to smell. With natural blending, you open the bottle, smell, decide what it blends well with, and mix your mother load.


    Joe

  2. #2

    Default Re: diluting your aromachems BEFORE composing your frag?


  3. #3

    Default Re: diluting your aromachems BEFORE composing your frag?

    thanks. i'll check them out. but what do yoou do?

  4. #4
    Basenotes Plus
    pkiler's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    6,939

    Default Re: diluting your aromachems BEFORE composing your frag?

    What I do, is to make my blends, primarily undiluted. What gets prediluted are those too strong to begin with.
    I don't dilute first, because if you dilute first, then those chemicals react with the alcohol FIRST, instead of reacting with each other first, THEN the alcohol.
    Secondly, prediluting locks you in to a predetermined dilution ratio. My Perfumes are not all at the same dilution ratio when I bottle them. Some are higher, some are lower.
    I had a perfume long ago, that if it wasn't at 8%, it would knock you over. Other perfumes I sell are at 20%. But if you have already diluted to 10%, you can't ever get to 20% later, now can ya?
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  5. #5

    Default Re: diluting your aromachems BEFORE composing your frag?

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post
    I don't dilute first, because if you dilute first, then those chemicals react with the alcohol FIRST, instead of reacting with each other first, THEN the alcohol.
    excuse me Paul. I didn't understand this concept... And it seems to be very important. So could you explain it?
    From freedom came elegance:
    in the Finnish man we trust

  6. #6

    Default Re: diluting your aromachems BEFORE composing your frag?

    YEs, please. When you ar emaking your first batch, do you dilute the aromchems first, or do you use them neat?

  7. #7

    Default Re: diluting your aromachems BEFORE composing your frag?

    Quote Originally Posted by joev View Post
    YEs, please. When you ar emaking your first batch, do you dilute the aromchems first, or do you use them neat?
    Hi Joev, I've only been doing this as a hobby for a little over a year, but I don't dilute the aromachems ahead of time unless the ratios call for one aromachem to be much, much smaller in quantity than the others. So, for example, I would dilute aledhydes to 10% with IPM (isopropyl myristate) before adding it to the mixture. When I first started, I diluted everything to 50% with IPM upon receiving them, but I stopped doing this for two reasons: (1) it's a lot of work - I ended up with twice as many bottles since I had some little bottles that were diluted then any leftover originals, which meant then I had twice as much bottles to keep track of and (2) it makes the math a little bit harder for me (not a lot, but it opens up the door to additional unnecessary mistakes in calculation).

    That said, however, I think that there is a large contingency of basenoters that do dilute and find merit in doing so. I surmise that some of the reasons may be that (1) aromachems are expensive and this helps stretch out the supply (2) you may obtain a better sense of the final product. I do have to admit that there have been many (many, many) times that I have diluted something after what I believe to be a "final product" then once I add the alcohol and check the sillage, the result is different than what I imaged. Of course, this may be part of the learning process and the fact that I'm such a beginner. This, like so many things it seems in this field, may be a matter of trial and error to see what best suits your preferences and needs. Though I agree that having a sense of what may be worth trying or note by learning from fellow basenoters has been invaluable.
    Last edited by KatyD; 13th January 2018 at 02:59 PM.

  8. #8
    Super Member xii's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    Würzburg
    Posts
    235

    Default Re: diluting your aromachems BEFORE composing your frag?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sober View Post
    excuse me Paul. I didn't understand this concept... And it seems to be very important. So could you explain it?
    Some molecules constituting a blend might react with ethanol and some with one another.. So in theory the order of blending could matter and ethanol, being a small alcohol readily reacting with carboxylic acids for instance is a big player. However, most of these reactions, unlike reductions nor oxidations for instance, involve small changes in energy states meaning they like to happen in both directions. So a blend is constantly converging towards some equilibrium. Which, in turn, means that in the end, that is when the maturation concludes, it doesn't really matter whether the ingredients were neat or diluted. I suppose blending neat components first might significantly change the dynamics of the maturation and it may well speed up blend evaluation.

    I usually dilute tiny amounts of ingredients to 5%. If I want to achieve larger concentrations using diluted materials I just pick one or two main ingredients and use them neat. If the neat part constitutes for instance 20% of the formula then obviously you can blend into concentrations slightly above 20% even if the rest is heavily diluted.

  9. #9
    Super Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    parma
    Posts
    377

    Default Re: diluting your aromachems BEFORE composing your frag?

    I dilute the ingredients. But but I leave some basic (ies, hedione,etc.) at 20/30% . So you can raise the concentration at will when I need it

  10. #10

    Default Re: diluting your aromachems BEFORE composing your frag?

    amen, KatyO. I am horrible at math: "it makes the math a little bit harder for me" But I have an amber base and would like to dilute my isobutane and vanilla abs before adding it tot the amber accord I bought.

  11. #11

    Default Re: diluting your aromachems BEFORE composing your frag?

    I'm doing 20% too. I did 3% of the isobutane, which was the suggestion, and it smelled like barely nothing on the scent strip.

  12. #12
    Basenotes Plus
    pkiler's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    6,939

    Default Re: diluting your aromachems BEFORE composing your frag?

    Sober.

    Aldehydes react with anthranilates, to create schiff bases.
    Aldehydes react with alcohol, to create hemiacetals.

    I usually favor the creation of schiff bases over hemiacetals, and so, prefer allowing the concentrate to blend together first, before dilution into alcohol.
    Both of these reactions take time to recombine the molecules.
    Nothing is fast or overnight, (unless heat is added) which you do not normally do.

    This is just one example of the changes that takes place inside of a perfume after blending and dilution.
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    Gold Medal for "Best Aroma"; Los Angeles Artisan Fragrance Salon

  13. #13

    Default Re: diluting your aromachems BEFORE composing your frag?

    I think to play, I had to dilute two aromachems for an amber I'm making tomorrow. He wants it sweet and smoky. grrr.... but not candyfloss sweet, not valla sweet, but creamy, like cream soda over pure folizzed amber, which is disulted to 10% and is very tarry and dry.

  14. #14

    Default Re: diluting your aromachems BEFORE composing your frag?

    I dilute every scent in 10% and 1%(strong ones for small dose, like aldehydes, oxane etc). and I consider as full, undiluted formula. when I note them as undiluted and 10%.

  15. #15

    Default Re: diluting your aromachems BEFORE composing your frag?

    Well, I ended uo doing tow things, diluting my musks so I could smell them, and using them in the mother mass instead of the concentrated version. Now when i dillute it to 35% for an EdP, I will have to add more musks. Buyer beware!

Similar Threads

  1. chocolate accord & hard to find aromachems
    By Irina in forum Fragrance DIY
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 8th October 2015, 07:58 PM
  2. Composing an earthy perfume
    By superfluousPastry in forum Fragrance DIY
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 6th January 2015, 02:29 PM
  3. Need help with composing my perfume...
    By MatejCurl in forum Fragrance DIY
    Replies: 21
    Last Post: 8th December 2010, 05:32 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  



Loving perfume on the Internet since 2000