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  1. #1

    Default How Can I make a deep blueberry accord?

    I want to make a blueberry note that's deep, not light and fruity or too sweet. Any ideas?

  2. #2
    Basenotes Junkie mattmeleg's Avatar
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    Default Re: How Can I make a deep blueberry accord?

    experiment mixing SOME of these:
    You have to use your own nose... but something tells me, that in the correct combination you will find something you like.

    https://shop.perfumersapprentice.com...tNumbersOnly=0

  3. #3

    Default Re: How Can I make a deep blueberry accord?

    Kinda depends on what deep means to you. If you mean really strongly smelling of blueberry or really long lasting blueberry then perfumer supply house has iso valerates 2 of them that are characteristic of blueberry, creating perfume has many plum chemicals likes prenyl acetate and prenyl benzoate that help blueberry.

    For long lasting you can lightly dose ionones, irones, velvetone and for longer and deeper you need all of the damascones alpha, beta, delta, whatever you can get your hands on.

    For even longer lasting you start looking at berry type musks like ethylene brassylate, romandolide, and velvione, isomuscone.

    For raisiny type blueberry notes KOHINOOL, methyl anthranilate, butyl anthranilate.

    Blueberry is a lot more green smelling then you think at first so you need dimethyl phenyl ethyl carbinol, Dimethyl benzyl carbinyl butyrate, dimethyl benzyl carbinyl acetate, and verdox.

    Blueberry has some sweetness so you need sweeteners like methyl -5-furfural, furanone, or maltol.

    A lot of the generic berry notes like berryflor, phenyl ethyl isobutyrate, strawberry glycidate are used in blueberry too but have to be carefully dosed or else it will turn into strawberry or cranberry.

    Blueberry is a bit more catty or sulphery than other berries so sulfurous type materials, cassis, or currant are good.

    Blueberries can smell a bit alcoholic so davana, oak, rum, butyrates, ethyl safranate can help.

    I know I put in a lot of materials but realize you don't need them all they are examples so you can make choices. Depends on if you want top note blueberry, base note blueberry, minimalist blueberry, photorealistic blueberry, blueberry candy.

    If you really want all of them to make the best blueberry that ever existed please know that none of these are wasted materials. They can all be bent to iris, violet, plum, dried fruits, cranberry, modern fragrances, amber, incense, gourmand, whiskey, florals, green apple or endless other ideas!
    Last edited by RSG; 16th July 2018 at 03:58 PM.

  4. #4

    Default Re: How Can I make a deep blueberry accord?

    Fresh blueberries usually taste quite bland to me but that may be due to the fact those imported into the UK are from cultivated highbush varieties, as opposed to the wild lowbush variety. The latter is said to have a more intense flavour.

    The odour-active volatiles of lowbush blueberries include methyl butanoate, methyl 2-methylbutanoate, ethyl 3-methylbutanoate, ethyl 2-methylbutanoate and linalool (Berger, 2007). You may wish to focus more on the last three as they are somewhat less fleeting, albeit still top and middle notes.

    RSG is right in saying that blueberries are a lot more green smelling than one might think, at least for highbush varieties. This is partly to do with the presence of hexenyl alcohols/aldehydes, which possess characteristic green notes:

    In another study, Parliament and Scarpellino determined that a combination of linalool and (Z)-3-hexen-1-ol produced a blueberry-like flavour, while Horvat and Senter reported that a mixture of (Z)-3-hexen-1-ol, (E)-2-hexen-1-ol, (E)-2-hexenal, linalool and geraniol gave an aroma similar to the aroma isolated from blueberries.....The major contributors to the aroma profile of blueberry juice are hexanal, (E)-2-hexenal and (E)-2-hexen-1-ol, limonene, linalool, α-terpineol, geraniol and nerol.
    https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...eberry&f=false


    The isovalerates that RSG alluded to (cis-3-hexenyl isovalerate and geranyl isovalerate) also possess green notes and they should last longer than the hexenyl alcohols/aldehydes.

    Blueberries tend to have a richer and deeper flavour when cooked. That may partly be to do with the interaction between the sugars and organic acids:

    Aroma concentrates were obtained from distillates during the processing of grape, strawberry and blueberry jams to investigate the characteristic sweet aroma. The slurry aroma concentrates were obtained from the distillates of fruit slurries without the addition of sucrose. Each aroma concentrate was analyzed by combined gas chromatography and mass spectrometry (GC-MS). The aroma concentrates of the jams had a sweeter aroma than those of the slurries in organoleptic tests. The sweet aroma of the jams was considered to be produced from the interaction of sucrose and organic acids in the fruits. 2-Furyl hydroxymethyl ketone and 5-hydroxymethyl-2-furfural were found in the jam aroma concentrates exclusively, and were considered to contribute to the characteristic sweet aroma of the jams. The presence of 2,5-dimethyl-4-hydroxy-3(2H)-furanone in the aroma concentrate of strawberry jam explains why it has the sweetest odor among the three jams.
    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...e_Kinds_of_Jam


    2,5-dimethyl-4-hydroxy-3(2H)-furanone (otherwise known as strawberry furanone) is widely available. 2-Furyl hydroxymethyl ketone and 5-hydroxymethyl-2-furfural are more difficult to source but 5-methyl furfural may be a suitable alternative to the latter:

    Furfural (FEMA# 2489, CAS# 98-01-1) is the most significant flavor compound generated during the heating of sugars in nature. The profile of furfural is, unsurprisingly, quite brown and caramelic. Underneath the obvious caramel character lurks more than a hint of the much harsher bitter almond note. This is also not surprising, given the close structural resemblance of furfural to benzaldehyde.

    Two additional furan aldehydes also are generated in significant quantities during the caramelizing process: 5-methyl furfural (FEMA# 2702, CAS# 620-02-0) and 5 (hydroxy methyl) furfural (CAS# 67-47-0). 5-Methyl furfural has a much softer caramel note than furfural and also has much less of the harsh benzaldehyde secondary character. This makes it preferable to furfural in most applications, in this author’s opinion. 5 (Hydroxy methyl) furfural is even softer, almost honey-like, but sadly does not perform well in respect of cost, regulatory acceptance or stability.

    Given this simple comparison, 5-methyl furfural probably makes the best contribution to the caramel underpinning of a very wide range of flavors that derive a significant aspect of their overall profile from heated sugars...
    https://www.perfumerflavorist.com/fl...367724801.html
    Last edited by Pears; 17th July 2018 at 01:32 AM.

  5. #5

    Default Re: How Can I make a deep blueberry accord?

    Thanks, Pears for the other information.

    So I gave this a go today and by go I mean a solid 4 days cogitating and delicate touches of every blueberryish thing I own. The idea was to make blueberry and to make it a complete aroma from top to base and as intense strong and real as possible. Here are just some ideas and highlights that might inspire other people.

    Phenirat and I did find a place that used Berryflor up to 40% so it's pretty useful for blueberry. I only used it at 5% so one day I would like to revisit this and try a much simpler version. Blueberry pentachord
    Lemonile and magnolan
    sweet: methyl-5-furfural works
    every alcoholic thing I own. Fun fact they do ferment commercial blueberries to make them tastier!
    every green fruit thing, dmbcb dmbca cyclabute etc.
    I am missing a lot of the fruity top notes they mention but ethyl butyrate worked ok, also manzanate
    cis-3-hexanol I did have
    I used 4 kinds of linalool materials and my favorite for this is lavender aldehyde
    Firascone turned into a great top note since I lacked many others
    citronellol is great
    geraniol great and surprisingly benzyl acetate was fabulous also
    of course, I used all of the damascone and ionone things I have but I also used a violet accord to toss in undervertol and undecanone.
    missing most of the herbal or terpenic things recommended so I used juniper eo and coriander eo.
    And the surprise absolute best thing I super enjoyed using was sultanene. Such a warm pineapple banana sparkle! Made up a lot for other things I was missing.

    I don't even know how close my attempt really is but I am super happy with it even if in the future I toss a different name on it. It's like blueberry lemonade, it sparkles and I am getting a trigeminal effect. Like the top notes of a blueberry Italian ice/sorbet without all the sweetness.

    The list of things I thought I would use but didn't is almost as long as the list of things I did use. Left out low odor blenders of every kind, left out a lot more green apple things than I thought I would, left out any amber or spice notes, left out a LOT of the sweetness. I used pineapple accord from creatingperfume.com so I did not use other pineapple materials, left out most other floral materials that show up formulas like lily materials.

  6. #6

    Default Re: How Can I make a deep blueberry accord?

    Iso valerates are essential.

  7. #7

    Default Re: How Can I make a deep blueberry accord?

    I'm glad to hear that you've already had some success, RSG.

    Below is a little more information for those that are interested:

    Based on consensus from only upright blueberry (NHB, RAB, and SHB) volatile literature, there are 33 compounds recovered in substantial levels or believed to have aroma impact (J.C. Beaulieu, unpublished data). These are: ethyl acetate, (E)-2-hexanal, (Z)-3-hexenal, hexanal, heptanol (E,Z)-2,6-nonadienal, (E)-2-hexenol, (Z)-2-hexenol, (Z)-3-hexenol, hexanol, ethyl butanoate, methyl 2-methylbutanoate, methyl 3-methylbutanoate, ethyl 2-methylbutanoate, ethyl 3-methylbutanoate, (Z)-3-hexenyl acetate, (E)-3-hexenyl acetate, hexyl acetate, linalool, p-cymene, cinerolone, β-ionone, 1,8-cineole, terpene-4-ol, limonene, α-terpineol, carveol, geraniol, eugenol, geranylacetone, 2-undecanone, 2-butanone, and damascenone (Du et al., 2011; Hirvi and Honkanen, 1983a, 1983b; Horvat et al., 1983; Horvat and Senter, 1985; Parliment, 1977; Parliment and Kolor, 1975; Zhang et al., 2009).
    http://journal.ashspublications.org/...139/2/167.full


    For a better idea of the relative concentrations of the above compounds, see 'Table 1' in the study below:

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5405137/


    To ascertain which of the 33 compounds are most responsible for the fully ripe flavour (i.e., optimum eating quality), we need to look at how the levels for each volatile change during the different stages of ripening (see the literature below Table 1). Based on the reported changes, the volatiles that should be most responsible are as follows (those not included in the list of 33 compounds (above) were excluded, for obvious reasons):

    Alcohols

    (Z)-2-hexenol
    hexanol

    Aldehydes

    (E)-2-hexenal
    Hexanal

    Esters

    ethyl acetate
    ethyl butyrate
    methyl 2-methyl butanoate
    methyl 3-methyl butanoate (methyl isovalerate)
    ethyl 2-methyl butanoate
    ethyl 3-methyl butanoate (ethyl isovalerate)
    hexyl acetate

    Monoterpenes

    limonene
    linalool
    4-terpineol
    α-terpineol
    geraniol
    geranyl acetone
    eugenol

    Norisoprenoids

    b-damascenone


    The alcohols and aldehydes listed are quite fleeting but they are important for the characteristic green note in highbush blueberries. If one wanted to extend the effect, then one could consider adding a little (E,Z)-2,6-nonadienal, or the aforementioned cis-3-hexenyl isovalerate and geranyl isovalerate. The lowbush blueberry, bilberry and other wild species contain considerably less in the way of alcohols and aldehydes, so you may be able to significantly reduce their levels if you want more of a wild blueberry accord.

    The esters listed are also quite fleeting but they are important for lending a sense of ripeness. If one wanted to extend the effect then one could add slightly heavier esters such as hexyl isobutyrate and cis-3-hexenyl isovalerate.

    Of the monoterpenes listed, limonene and eugenol are the least characteristic of the blueberry aroma and could probably be omitted without being missed too much.

    While b-ionone wasn't detected in the study, it has previously been detected in the rabbiteye blueberry (Horvat et al., 1983) and European blueberry (Rohloff et al., 2009). Based on it's odour profile and longevity, it should prove useful in many blueberry recreations. However, like b-damascenone, it has a strong impact at very low levels so it would need to be dosed accordingly.

    For Aromas' information, the deepest smelling of these materials are eugenol, b-damascenone and b-ionone. If you can't get b-damascenone (you can enquire at Liaison Carbone) then a combination of b-damascone, d-damascone and Tabanon would be the next best alternative.
    Last edited by Pears; 28th July 2018 at 03:21 PM.

  8. #8

    Default Re: How Can I make a deep blueberry accord?

    While eugenol isn't particularly characteristic of the blueberry aroma, it does have the ability to add roundness and depth to fruity accords, so I would suggest that you keep it in the blend. The limonene you can probably do without, but if you already have it then you might as well use it.
    Last edited by Pears; 28th July 2018 at 12:57 PM.

  9. #9

    Default Re: How Can I make a deep blueberry accord?

    How long do the isovalerates last does anyone know? I do have samples otw but it may be weeks more before they arrive.

  10. #10

    Default Re: How Can I make a deep blueberry accord?

    According to Bedoukian, the tenacities for cis-3-hexenyl isovalerate and geranyl isovalerate are >4 hours and >24 hours, respectively.

    http://search.bedoukian.com/flavorfr...hod=POP&id=117
    http://search.bedoukian.com/flavorfr...hod=POP&id=744

    The tenacity for (E,Z)-2,6-nonadienal is >1 week, just in case you're interested.

    http://search.bedoukian.com/flavorfr...hod=POP&id=332

    I always take the stated figures with a pinch of salt though.

  11. #11

    Default Re: How Can I make a deep blueberry accord?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pears View Post
    If you can't get b-damascenone (you can enquire at Liaison Carbone) then a combination of b-damascone, d-damascone and Tabanon would be the next best alternative.
    "Next best"....if your intention is to make the most realistic blueberry accord, that is. For certain variations on the blueberry theme, the damascones may actually be better suited than b-damascenone. As RSG mentioned, there are many ways to approach blueberry.

  12. #12

    Default Re: How Can I make a deep blueberry accord?

    Thanks so much everyone you’ve left me a lot to work with!!! I appreciate your time!
    Yeah I’ll have to order some more ACs for sure... I’ll be studying what you’ve left here..

  13. #13

    Default Re: How Can I make a deep blueberry accord?

    So I guess I should clarify my original intention also. My wife showed me a perfume that had a nice blueberry/blackberry type smell. She said she likes it and wanted me to make one like it. I should of wrote down why it was called haha, I’m pretty sure it was by Replica, but I have looked and haven’t been able to find out what it might be. It wasn’t like a realistic blueberry/blackberry smell. It had an interesting aspect. It wasn’t overwhelming at all, very agreeable, not overly sweet. I don’t know how to describe it, it just had a deeper/darker smell, less sweet and bright. It felt very smooth and relaxed. Not like the bright, in your face synthetic flavorings like how we often encounter blueberry flavors. It was closer to the natural flavor of blueberry but a little sweeter and more solid/clear. That’s the best I can describe it.

    I’ll try some of the ac you guys listed.

  14. #14
    Basenotes Plus
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    Default Re: How Can I make a deep blueberry accord?

    I can strongly recommend the Blackberry accord from Bill at TGSC, it is outstanding, but I can't help with Blueberry.
    http://www.thegoodscentscompany.com/...html#plz102213
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

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