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  1. #1

    Default The question about the "fragmentation"

    Hello, basenotes' men!
    I have a question about the presentation of Carlos Benaim from the world Perfume congress 2018? where in conclusions he wrote:

    • > 10% diffuive push
    • > 50% diffusive long lasting ingredients
    • Use full range of diffusive "Push" and "Long Lasting" ingredients for complete performance
    • Do not "fragment" the diffusive long lasting ingredients - "simpler is better" to increase the concentration of ingredients for longevity
    • Olfactive variety of diffusive long lasting ingredients drives good performance (i.e. not all musk)



    What does "Do not fragment" mean? Does this mean that it need to take as little AC as possible? For example, only one?
    Or it means something else?

  2. #2
    Basenotes Junkie mattmeleg's Avatar
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    Default Re: The question about the "fragmentation"

    Quote Originally Posted by yawell View Post
    Hello, basenotes' men!
    I have a question about the presentation of Carlos Benaim from the world Perfume congress 2018? where in conclusions he wrote:

    • > 10% diffuive push
    • > 50% diffusive long lasting ingredients
    • Use full range of diffusive "Push" and "Long Lasting" ingredients for complete performance
    • Do not "fragment" the diffusive long lasting ingredients - "simpler is better" to increase the concentration of ingredients for longevity
    • Olfactive variety of diffusive long lasting ingredients drives good performance (i.e. not all musk)



    What does "Do not fragment" mean? Does this mean that it need to take as little AC as possible? For example, only one?
    Or it means something else?
    Watch you talkin bout Willis?

  3. #3
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    Default Re: The question about the "fragmentation"

    Ask Harry Sherwood, he was there for the lecture.
    I haven't gotten my head wrapped around it yet.
    Mostly because I haven't really listened to the lecture....
    But Harry tried to help me understand it when he came and interned with me in June...
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

  4. #4

    Default Re: The question about the "fragmentation"

    I think he means don't split the number of ingredients up, use less at a higher percentage. Less fragments/pieces of ingredients.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


  5. #5
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    Default Re: The question about the "fragmentation"

    Haven't seen the talk, just slides to it.

    CB suggests two classes of diffusive ingredients: push and (long) lasting. He compares them to sprinters and long distance runners respectively. We are supposed to imagine crowd of molecules on their way from skin to our noses. The sprinters, the push ingredients, give the crowd initial nudge just in case some molecules were reluctant. It makes some sense actually. If the lazy ingredients don't like to mingle with the push ones the sprinters surround small groups of slackers and thus help them take off from the medium, skin that is.

    The lasting diffusive ingredients are supposed to have low vapour pressure and low detection threshold. CB advocates high doses of these in perfumes. It is worth mentioning that for instance Hedione isn't diffusive according to a study used in the slides.

    About the observations:

    • Use full range of diffusive "Push" and "Long Lasting" ingredients for complete performance
    • Do not "fragment" the diffusive long lasting ingredients - "simpler is better" to increase the concentration of ingredients for longevity
    • Olfactive variety of diffusive long lasting ingredients drives good performance (i.e. not all musk)


    In order to reconcile these three I'd suggest the following reformulation of them:

    • In order to achieve better performance one should use diffusive materials in top middle *) and base notes.
    • Rather than mixing many similar diffusive materials one should stick to fewer of them.
    • One should include diffusive lasting ingredients from different olfactive families.


    *) As I mentioned I haven't seen the talk. The slides are mess. There are several references to a study classifying Galaxolide and benzyl salicylate as non-diffusive materials. However, later slides suggest these are diffusive after all. The same study also mentions diffusive middle notes. CB seems impartial to these and the resulting confusion is resolved by decreeing: there are no intrinsic middle notes. Anything else I could write here wouldn't be kind so I will stop now.
    Last edited by xii; 14th September 2018 at 05:14 PM. Reason: Grammar

  6. #6

    Default Re: The question about the "fragmentation"

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post
    Ask Harry Sherwood, he was there for the lecture.
    Pkiler, I hope Harry Sherwood is reading this forum. It would be interesting to me to hear his opinion.



    Xii, thanks for your answer. That is, do you suppose that CB suggests to increase diffusion by simplifying the flavor?
    Quote Originally Posted by xii View Post
    Anything else I could write here wouldn't be kind so I will stop now.
    Do not stop! In controversial moments there are always interesting moments!



    Quote Originally Posted by mattmeleg View Post
    Watch you talkin bout Willis?
    Hello, Mattmeleg. I'm meditating over this slides - https://perfumersupplyhouse.com/wp-c...ceWPC-2018.pdf

  7. #7
    Basenotes Junkie mattmeleg's Avatar
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    Default Re: The question about the "fragmentation"

    The slide seem to highlight (the professional perfumers) struggle between;
    (constructing) large silage vs a definite, recognizable perfume identity (after 3 hours)

    The goal, as it appears, is - to use use NEW technology, and new MATERIALS
    to construct "big time," perfume....which remain recognizable after some hours.

    I am just a beginner, soI could be very wrong.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: The question about the "fragmentation"

    The slides are confusing. Which is the worst but not only of their flaws (one other would be that they are ugly). Nonetheless, the talk surely contained considerable amount of insight. I'll try to extract this insight from the slides.

    The first part is about Aura of aroma, research on fragrance diffusion done in 1997. The objective of the article was to show that even shortly after fragrance application we can smell molecules of low vapour pressure and high boiling points in it. The method used is headspace applied to skin with perfume oil on it. It was observed that some molecules diffuse more than others. For instance linalool, present at 1,7% in the fragrance (Shalimar was used) appeared at 17,9% in the GCMS of the SPME fibre (whatever that is) one hour after having been applied; whereas limonene, 30% in the oil was found at only 20,4% in the fibre. The authors would say linalool is more diffusive than limonene. In this research Hedione and Galaxolide scored poorly in the diffusiveness department. The article itself is quite neat.

    If you are sharp eyed you might notice "subsequent studies contradict the finding" on the last slide dealing with Aura of aroma. Which is good because delivering contradictions within a single talk is not cool. The question is why bother to refer to the study in the first place. Possibly to vex people like me.

    Thus we come to the second part of the talk. The holistic theory of diffusivity.

    On the first slide we are challenged with the question "What makes perfume recognisable". Subsequent slides introduce an analogy between perfume and facial recognition. For the sake of entertainment we can follow famous Vermeer's painting being gradually unpixelated. We find out a perfume is faceless if we cannot "recognise it as the full fragrance three hours in three feet away". I'm guessing we are supposed to recognise the fragrance three hours on skin and not be able to distinguish it from the fragrance freshly applied. Under this condition single molecule fragrances have "face" and most others don't. Not in the universe as we know it anyway. My personal opinion about what makes it possible to recognise a fragrance at different stages of its dry down is its unique character throughout its dry down.

    I sort of like the idea of including well performing materials in perfumes. I also tend to agree that fewer woody ambers in a blend frequently works better than more. Finally, even if my blend seems quite complete (a very rare event) I will keep searching possible fits from olfactive families not yet present in the blend.

    A comment here. The main problem with diffusivity is that it is very hard to predict it in mixtures. Not to mention sillage. Some extreme examples:

    1. A and B are very diffusive with similar detection thresholds and are miscible liquids but A has a higher vapour pressure. In this case we will not smell much of B in the mixture until almost all A has evaporated.

    2. A is a liquid having a high vapour pressure and doesn't mix well with B, liquid or solid whose vapour pressure is low. In this case it may happen that the combined vapour pressure of A and B is actually higher than that of A. Meaning B will initially diffuse at quite high rate.

    In theory, by mere inclusion of gravity, a combination of two highly non-diffusive components can become very diffusive. I'm quite sure there are such two substances in my lab (one being hexane) but I won't experiment with it.

  9. #9

    Default Re: The question about the "fragmentation"

    Quote Originally Posted by xii View Post

    A comment here. The main problem with diffusivity is that it is very hard to predict it in mixtures. Not to mention sillage. Some extreme examples:

    1. A and B are very diffusive with similar detection thresholds and are miscible liquids but A has a higher vapour pressure. In this case we will not smell much of B in the mixture until almost all A has evaporated.

    2. A is a liquid having a high vapour pressure and doesn't mix well with B, liquid or solid whose vapour pressure is low. In this case it may happen that the combined vapour pressure of A and B is actually higher than that of A. Meaning B will initially diffuse at quite high rate.

    In theory, by mere inclusion of gravity, a combination of two highly non-diffusive components can become very diffusive. I'm quite sure there are such two substances in my lab (one being hexane) but I won't experiment with it.
    And this is further complicated by the fact that different substances odor strength doesn't vary in direct proportion to their
    concentration in air. Some can be detected at very low concentration but have a nearly the same intensity when there is a lot more of it which means it will have similar effect nearby as at a distance (some musks for example). And others have a high value for variation of intensity/ concentration which makes them diminish fast with increased distance. The complexity is what makes it so fascinating though.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: The question about the "fragmentation"

    I know the complete talk now. This:

    • In order to achieve better performance one should use diffusive materials in top middle and base notes.
    • Rather than mixing many similar diffusive materials one should stick to fewer of them.
    • One should include diffusive lasting ingredients from different olfactive families.


    seems to be guessed accurately.

    The talk compares 1997 study of diffusivity with recent study of sillage in which Carlos Benaim was involved. It is not explicitly mentioned in the talk but the CB group was aware of some flaws in the old methodology. Most significant being that of saturation of the tiny bubble the first group put on the skin. In small enclosed spaces molecules like limonene quickly saturate the environment which stops the diffusion. Thus, in the new study the concentration of fragrant molecules was measured at larger distance, like three feet or so.

    The glorified results of the study have been rather obvious to physicists for about two centuries but perfumers were to busy with Jean Carles material classification to notice that. "Push" and "long lasting" diffusive ingredients is merely yet another classification which might help perfumers but is utterly meaningless from the physics viewpoint. Similarly, the conclusions mentioned in the thread opening are replacement for the Jean Carles perfume composition method. Which is good actually, it means western perfumers advanced from stone to bronze.

    I suppose we all here look up molecular weights, vapour pressures, odour detection thresholds etc. when trying to improve performance of our blends. I'm also quite sure we all are aware these numbers are just hints and will not replace perfumers' skill and experience.

  11. #11
    Basenotes Junkie mattmeleg's Avatar
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    Default Re: The question about the "fragmentation"

    I know that professional perfumers are well trained, knowledgeable and hardworking.
    They put together dozens of accords each day, they are paid well and they are under pressure from the marketing team.

    Professional perfumers rarely get to do exactly what they like.
    They are pressured to use highly diffusive materials... to create perfumes that advertise themselves.

    I probably make 1/5th the income of a professional perfumer... Still,
    I am grateful to be just a hobby perfumer because I can put together accords that I feel are beautiful...
    I can do this WITHOUT having to answer to any marketing team.

    I have no interest in putting together BIG TIME scents,
    Beautiful smelling, harmonic, complex accords are what I`m after....
    Diffusion, not so much

  12. #12

    Default Re: The question about the "fragmentation"

    Yes, nothing will replace experience and intuition. But sometimes figures are so necessary to understand why expectations did not materialize.

    I have my own theory about the proportions and impact of the AC in relation to each other in sillage. Not the ultimate truth, of course, but I like it more and more.

    And, proceeding from it, I see inconsistencies neither in the first study nor in the second and nor xii's examples, given here. And even birdie's observations, I'm sure, will be possible to explain with this approach, if it will be given more specific data:
    - just to the vapour pressure add one factor - solubility in water - and all this disparate mosaic will be easy to assemble into a coherent picture.

    * solubility in water - is the necessary parameter to aromatic molecules to dissolves in the nose mucus to be identified by olfactory receptors and brain recognition.

    I'll be glad to hear your comments about this.


    -

    But....
    I have no idea what "fragmentation" is and why the author thinks it is so important that he put it in a separate paragraph.
    it's driving me crazy - there must be some idea or experience that led him to make this conclusion.
    But... what?!

  13. #13
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    Default Re: The question about the "fragmentation"

    Quote Originally Posted by yawell View Post
    I have no idea what "fragmentation" is and why the author thinks it is so important that he put it in a separate paragraph.
    it's driving me crazy - there must be some idea or experience that led him to make this conclusion.
    But... what?!
    That's something I actually experience quite often. Many other people here as well. The formulas get inflated so we streamline them for clarity and performance. It's like having some green pattern on a one shade darker green background. You don't really see the pattern, just green.

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