Code of Conduct
Results 1 to 7 of 7
  1. #1

    Question Need help, i think i'm lost. ( DIY perfumery newbie Question )

    Dear, Fellow basenoters..

    First of all, allow me to introduce myself. My name is Amr Arie, i'm 26 years old, I lived in Bandung, Indonesia. A place where imitated genuine perfume are imported from the oversea factories and are sold locally trough mass distributing capitalism chains, making the consumers believe that they are supporting the growth of local communities by buying it. While local artisans are striving trough the monopolizating of the counterfeit market, not just fragrances, but almost all the genuine fashion stuff. I never been on formal perumery studies/training/course because the trend in here to work as a perfumer is uncommon. Luckily here in my city, the creative energy from the authentic local brands are always growing and enthusiastic (especially on the fashion industries). but still, there's nowhere to learn and no one to ask about perfumery except from the internet.

    Inspired so much by Le Labo ideas as "anti globalization mass production" independent brand (hope im not accidentally copycating them), i decided to start my own fragrance house. I have a clear vision that in the future i will be able to share my knowledge on DIY Perfumery freely with the other fashion local brands here, until together we could create the culture of locals indie fragrance house market capable to overthrow the counterfeit market in my city (Bandung), and then in my country (Indonesia).

    enough for the introduction, now straight to the point of this message. 😀

    I've been observing at serveral DIY Perfumery forums (i.e Basenotes, Perfumer Apprentice, Yahoo & Facebook DIY Perfumery group) since the last year and been*following various newbie guide in DIY Perfumery. Especially in this DIY forum, i find a lot of insight, tips and advice that are so*comprehensive and well written to me (thanks a lot, you guys!).

    After reading the "List of 100 Aromachemicals" in basenotes thread post edited by Chris Bartlett and considering the most useful ingridients for my formula design. finally i'm encouragung myself to start build my perfumer mini-palette consisting of 47 material (AC & EO) that most of all i ordered from perfumersworld.com (the closest suppliers that i could get). After multiple test sample (about 60-70 time trial fails), i've got my work began to reach my design objective, but their scents are fleeting too fast (not more than 2 hour). short story, here's the three formula i made and their evaluation towards the design objectives :

    Inspired by & Measured with : Le Labo Gaiac 10.
    Design objectives (1-5 odour intensity rate) : (5)Woody, (4)Musk, (4)Green, (3)Balsamic, (2)Powdery.

    I. Al - Ghayak 13 :
    1. Galaxolide (15%)
    2. M-Ketone 10% (5%)
    3. Ethylene Brassylate (11%)
    4. Ambroxan Cetalox (5%)
    5. Fixateur 505 10% (10%)
    6. Ambrettolide 10% (2%)
    7. Exaltolide Pentadecanolide 50% (6%)
    8. Guaiacwood EO 50% (15%)
    9. Cedarwood Himalayan EO (6%)
    10. Frankincense Serrata EO (3%)
    11. ISO E Super (10%)
    12. Cedramber (4%)
    13. Oakmoss EO 20% (8%)
    Total (100%)

    Design evaluation : (5)Woody, (4) Green, (2)balsamic, (1)powdery, (1)Musk.
    Notes : it's supposed to be subtle soft woody-green guaiac-cedar all along the top-middle notes, and then musky-sweet on the dry down middle-base. But its hard to recognize the musk, and doesn't work as fixatives either. the guaiac only last for less than one hour, cant find the cedar too after that. Although Frankincense and Iso E works well in this state.*something is totally wrong here.
    ---

    Inspired by & Measured with : Le Labo Patchouli 22
    Design objectives (1-5 odor intensity rate) : (5)Woody, (4)Smoky, (4)Vanilla, (3)Earthy, (2)Musk.

    II. Al - Fanilan 19 :
    1. Ethyl Maltol 10% (6%)
    2. Cinnamon Bark EO (2%)
    3. Vanillin 10% (9%)
    4. Hedione (6%)
    5. Ethyl Vanillin 10% (10%)
    6. Coumarin 10% (3%)
    7. Aldehydes C-18 Gamma Nonalactone (5%)
    8. Ambroxan Cetalox 10% (1%)
    9. Ethylene Brassylate (6%)
    10. Aldehydes C-14 Gamma undecalactone 10% (3%)
    11. Galaxolide (9%)
    12. ISO E Super (10%)
    13. Patchouli Indonesian EO (13%)
    14. Vetiver Indonesian EO (4%)
    15. Black Pepper Indonesian EO (1%)
    16. Oakmoss EO 20% in ethanol (2%)
    17. Birch Tar EO (4%)
    18. Benzoin EO (3%)
    19. Cedramber (3%)

    Design evaluation : (3)Woody, (1)Smoky, (5)Vanilla, (2) Earthy, (1)Musk
    Notes : Supposed to be strong and heavy smoky-woody patchouli campfire on the top-middle notes, and vanilla-musk on the middle-base notes. but the vanilla are too dominating the notes since the first spray, and i cant find the smoke tar-patchouli earth notes. Earlier i tried to doubled the Birch Tar and benzoin, but it gaves me solubility problem. Cant find the Ethylene Brassylate-galaxolide paring with the Vanilla in the middle-base notes too.
    ---

    Inspired by & Measured with : Le Labo Ambrette 9
    Design objectives (1-5 odor intensity rate) : (5)Amber, (4)Musk, (4)Fruity, (3)Aldehydes (2)Citrus.

    III. Al - Ambar 21 :
    1. Ambrettolide 10% DPG (7%)
    2. Exaltolide Pentadecanolide 50% DPG (9%)
    3. Labdanum 20% DPG (10%)
    4. Benzoin EO (5%)
    5. Patchouli Indonesian EO (2%)
    6. Musk Ketone 10% DPG (7%)
    7. ISO E Super (3%)
    8. Geranyl Acetate (3%)
    9. Galaxolide (5%)
    10. Grapefruit EO (2.25%)
    11. Bergamot EO (2.25%)
    12. D-Limonene (4%)
    13. Ethyl Linalool (4%)
    14. Hedione (5%)
    15. Hydroxycitronellal (1.5%)
    16. Aldehydes C-12 MNA 10% DPG (7.5%)
    17. Aldehydes C-14 Gamma Undecalactone (5%)
    18. Benzyl Salicylate (5%)
    19. Linalyl Acetate (5%)
    20. Benzyl Acetate (2.5%)
    21. Calone 10% DPG (5%)

    Design evaluation : (5)Amber, (4)Fruity, (2)Musky, (2)Aldehydes, (1) Citrus
    Notes : Supposed to be energizing sweet amber-musky-fruity on the top-middle notes, but the Amber are not linger untill the middle notes, only on the first 30 minutes, an then the fruity-aldehydes going for another 30 minutes, i dont know why the citruses only appear in the dry down of the base notes when i tested it in blotting papers , but when i test it on 7ml sprayer at 13% concentration everything just got dominated by benzyl acetate all along from the begining till the end for about 1 hour.
    ---

    Here is the complete list of 47 ingridients in my palettes (28 EO, 20 AC) :
    -Essentials oils :
    Benzoin Styrax, Bergamot, Black Pepper, Birch Tar, Cedarwood Himalayan, Cinnamon Bark, Clove Bud Frankincense Serrata, Grapefruit, Guaiacwood, Labdanum Cistus,* Mandarin, Oakmoss, Patchouli Indonesia, Vetiver Indonesia.

    -Aromachemicals :
    Aldehydes C-8 Octanal, Aldehydes C-12 MNA 10% DPG, Aldehydes C-14 GU, Aldehydes C-18 GN, Alpha Ionone, Ambrettolide 10%, Ambroxan Cetalox 10%, Aurantiol (MAS schiff base) 50%, Benzyl Acetate, Benzyl Salicylate, Calone 10%, Cedramber, Cedrol, Coumarin, Citronellol, Dihydromyrcenol, D-Limonene, Ethylene Brassylate, Ethyl Linalool, Ethyl Maltol, Ethyl Vanillin, Exaltolide Pentadecanolide 50%, Fixateur 505 10%, Floral Ozone, Galaxolide, Geranyl Acetate, Guaiacol, Hedione, Hydroxycitronellal, ISO E Super, Linalyl Acetate, Musk Ketone 10%, Vanillin 10%.

    The idea is to create the fragrances as minimal as it can, and educating the market about how a perfume should be appreciated as it should be (to send the perfume message via-scent through time, not in the spectacular first-spray impression). also there's no reason and chances for me to compete blatantly with the counterfeit fragrances that has a complex top-notes formulation with no dry down effect. It seems*the lack of capital, raw materials, resource and technical skill in Perfumery has giving me advantages and opportunity to do the opposite thing as the counterfeit market does.

    Notes that i'm planning to sell those 3 perfume between the price range of $10-15 per 60ml bottle at 13% concentration (EdP). i knew well that i'm on a really tight and limited budget to start a Perfumery business (thats why my palette are so small), but within that price range, i still find a lot of opportunity to establish a new market for a indie fragrance house to grow, because almost everyone here in my country who consider themselves as a perfume merchant, they only sold a fragrances oil without understanding the goods they are selling. Seems there's still a huge misunderstanding about what really a fragrances means are to the market majority. there's no dedication, no dignity, and no apreciation to the state of the art. Also reminding that the counterfeit Perfume here are sold for about $8-10 per 100ml bottle at 50% concentration (Perfume). I know, it's crazy cheap, right? God only knows what they are made from. gotta outsmart them anyway with the social media campaign, but as an enterpreneur, i'll take my chances in that uncerctainity and will figure out somehow.

    Truthfully, I'm not asking for a shortcuts or trick regarding perfume longevity, i'm asking for your practical guidance and advice as an experienced Perfumer who know how to costruct a commercial perfume formula in a proper way. I feel lost, but im not quitting. That's why i ask for your help. In this case, would you help me to "make do" my small palette that i already got for now at least to make the 3 formula above reach some aesthetic point and are ready for commercial purpose. I'm not planning to extend the palette yet due to the monetary thing (already spent about $800 total for the tools and raw materials). Bottom line, i have put all my savings accounts in this business, because it's now or never.

    Although i've got the marketing strategy campaign ready, the packaging, the branding, the selling. it means nothing if the product doesn't deliver any aesthetic intetion.* Hopefully, i could start running the busniess soon, educating myself more and the people about the art of perfumery, embracing the other local brands to create their own fragrances and develop more products while making a living from it little by little. May God bless this mess 😀

    Best regards,
    'Amr Arie.
    Bandung, Indonesia.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Need help, i think i'm lost. ( DIY perfumery newbie Question )

    Quote Originally Posted by Amrtroughsmoke View Post

    Inspired by & Measured with : Le Labo Gaiac 10.
    Design objectives (1-5 odour intensity rate) : (5)Woody, (4)Musk, (4)Green, (3)Balsamic, (2)Powdery.

    I. Al - Ghayak 13 :
    1. Galaxolide (15%)
    2. M-Ketone 10% (5%)
    3. Ethylene Brassylate (11%)
    4. Ambroxan Cetalox (5%)
    5. Fixateur 505 10% (10%)
    6. Ambrettolide 10% (2%)
    7. Exaltolide Pentadecanolide 50% (6%)
    8. Guaiacwood EO 50% (15%)
    9. Cedarwood Himalayan EO (6%)
    10. Frankincense Serrata EO (3%)
    11. ISO E Super (10%)
    12. Cedramber (4%)
    13. Oakmoss EO 20% (8%)
    Total (100%)

    Design evaluation : (5)Woody, (4) Green, (2)balsamic, (1)powdery, (1)Musk.
    Notes : it's supposed to be subtle soft woody-green guaiac-cedar all along the top-middle notes, and then musky-sweet on the dry down middle-base. But its hard to recognize the musk, and doesn't work as fixatives either. the guaiac only last for less than one hour, cant find the cedar too after that. Although Frankincense and Iso E works well in this state.*something is totally wrong here.
    You've covered everything up with heavy, oppressive musks and woody ambers. Retry starting with only the guaiac, frankincense, cedar and oakmoss. Get it to where you like it and add traces of only 2 or 3 of the musks/woody ambers to that blend until it projects better. For example, try adding Fixateur 505 until it is no more than 0.5% of the blend and see what happens and adjust as you like. Then add IsoE Super in small increments until you are happy with the change.

  3. #3
    Basenotes Plus
    pkiler's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Southern California
    Posts
    7,608

    Default Re: Need help, i think i'm lost. ( DIY perfumery newbie Question )

    Apa Kabar, I'm sorry, you wrote to me, but my Father is in the ICU in the Hospital, I've not been able to respond.

    How did you determine these formulas?
    Did you purchase a GC result from these fragrances?

    For your Pathouli Le Labo 22 type, II. Al - Fanilan 19 : you have way too much Vanillin and Ethyl Vanillin.
    Cut the Vanillin total to 0.35% and the total Ethyl Vanillin 0.20%, and see where that places you. Then you can add slowly if you want to.

    For your Le Labo Ambrette 9, III. Al - Ambar 21 :
    You are going to need quite a few more bits and molecules to smooth that out better in the top and middle. There;s only really a smattering of those, but filled utterly with base notes...
    Paul Kiler
    PK Perfumes
    http://www.PKPERFUMES.com
    In addition to Our own PK line, we make Custom Bespoke Perfumes, perfumes for Entrepreneurs needing scents for perfumes or products, Custom Wedding Perfumes, and even Special Event Perfumes.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Need help, i think i'm lost. ( DIY perfumery newbie Question )

    Quote Originally Posted by I.D.Adam View Post
    You've covered everything up with heavy, oppressive musks and woody ambers. Retry starting with only the guaiac, frankincense, cedar and oakmoss. Get it to where you like it and add traces of only 2 or 3 of the musks/woody ambers to that blend until it projects better. For example, try adding Fixateur 505 until it is no more than 0.5% of the blend and see what happens and adjust as you like. Then add IsoE Super in small increments until you are happy with the change.
    i never thought to add some materials untill "the point that i like it" before, i'm sure that i was too tied with numbers and percentage back there. i always doing the 100% composition formulas on the paper first, then see what happened if i add next 1 miligrams composition, then my brain got scrambled with the calculations of the total mixture percentage

    many thank you for your inputs, i apreciate it a lot. i'll retry them later patiently and will come back with the evaluation several day after.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Need help, i think i'm lost. ( DIY perfumery newbie Question )

    Quote Originally Posted by pkiler View Post
    Apa Kabar, I'm sorry, you wrote to me, but my Father is in the ICU in the Hospital, I've not been able to respond.

    How did you determine these formulas?
    Did you purchase a GC result from these fragrances?

    For your Pathouli Le Labo 22 type, II. Al - Fanilan 19 : you have way too much Vanillin and Ethyl Vanillin.
    Cut the Vanillin total to 0.35% and the total Ethyl Vanillin 0.20%, and see where that places you. Then you can add slowly if you want to.

    For your Le Labo Ambrette 9, III. Al - Ambar 21 :
    You are going to need quite a few more bits and molecules to smooth that out better in the top and middle. There;s only really a smattering of those, but filled utterly with base notes...

    Saya baik baik saja Pak Paul, but i'm sorry to hear about your father. may he get well soon. besides, i know that you are a busy perfumer, so my thank you for your time and thoughts on my long explanained situation.

    truthfully i determined this formula from my consideration on several reference and steps like :
    1. basenotes & perfumer apprentince formula (for the base accord i.e vanilla accord).
    2. fragrantica perfume reviews (for the notes, the description, people feedback on particular perfume).
    3. TGSC typical gc result in every essentials notes leaked from fragrantica, (i.e Le Labo - Gaiac 10 has Cedarwood notes, so i looked up for typical gc trace result and look for the Aromachemical to enchant the Cedarwood notes~~cedramber).
    4. after that i tried to differentiate with the brand value concept and major taste in the market based on a mini survey i made, mainly the gourmand-sweet perfume are liked in here (male/female), and the scent of minimalist woody fragrances in here are still uncommon and considered as unique.
    5. finally i do the raw materials selection and compability with IFRA & TGSC safety limit usage reference, then some wild guess-nose for the formula sample creation. the rest is a trial-error untill i came up with the recent formulation percentage. that's where i came up with the formulas.

    i'm sorry for the methods that seems weird or out of standards, but for the same expenses in my situation it's more reasonable for me to buy raw materials than buying several 100ml perfume and then do/purchase some GC lab test on it. Please do correct me if i'm wrong, for that im here looking for mentoring and guidances.
    ---

    Duly noted, i'll retry them both formulas and will come back with the evaluation update the day after.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Need help, i think i'm lost. ( DIY perfumery newbie Question )

    Hi, sorry too for not responding sooner. My mum has parkinson's so my sister and I are on full time 24 hr care duties. I haven't been here lately.

    I suggest looking on the good scents guide demo formulas too just to look at the proportions of some of their perfumes by comparison.

    http://www.thegoodscentscompany.com/...dm1113381.html
    The PONK club - gymnosium for perfumers (NOTE:- New club matters on hold whilst I care for my mum)

    Twitter - @PonkClub for regular twitter updates

    My Tincture list

    A perfumed life - Tinctures, perfumes, cordials, wines and ingredients

  7. #7

    Default Re: Need help, i think i'm lost. ( DIY perfumery newbie Question )

    Quote Originally Posted by Amrtroughsmoke View Post
    i never thought to add some materials untill "the point that i like it" before, i'm sure that i was too tied with numbers and percentage back there. i always doing the 100% composition formulas on the paper first, then see what happened if i add next 1 miligrams composition, then my brain got scrambled with the calculations of the total mixture percentage

    many thank you for your inputs, i apreciate it a lot. i'll retry them later patiently and will come back with the evaluation several day after.

    When learning perfumery it is helpful to read all the tips and tricks out there and about the base, heart and top notes, and so on, but THE most important thing is learning each material you have. What does it smell like, how long does it last, does it change over time, does it project or do you have to get close to the strip to smell it? Make notes if you can't remember it's okay. As you learn, combine some into 2 and 3 note accords. Do they work? Why not? Is it what you expected or wanted? Keep these ideas in your head and begin to mix materials in your head. Start slow and grow your knowledge base over time. Want to make a rose accord? That's the utility of basenotes. Use the search function and you'll find a lot of ideas for rose accords and many more as well. Also you can use thegoodscentscompany.com as Mumsy pointed out. Unfortunately you can't rush this process, like becoming good at playing a musical instrument, lots of practice and thinking about what you're doing.

    After that, mix whatever you like and don't feel compelled to use what you're "supposed" to use for any given scent or accord or fragrance. Go forward boldly, undaunted and without trepidation and you can make the fragrances you want.

Similar Threads

  1. Newbie question
    By nurc in forum Just Starting Out
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 8th December 2013, 04:52 PM
  2. Newbie here with a question
    By Shayon in forum Female Fragrance Discussion
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 13th September 2010, 11:52 PM
  3. hello from a newbie with a question
    By odyseus in forum Male Fragrance Discussion
    Replies: 18
    Last Post: 7th February 2007, 09:01 PM
  4. Newbie with Question
    By dzdigits in forum Just Starting Out
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 30th May 2006, 04:39 PM
  5. Newbie question, not in FAQ
    By Borbor in forum Male Fragrance Discussion
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 10th January 2006, 06:03 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  



Loving perfume on the Internet since 2000